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[Thorn Harvestar]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I cannot interfere with the way life is.

It's like someone at Bioware took a hit from a bong and just...****.

I'm curious as to what your issue with control is.  I understand the problem with synthesis, and your rational behind destroy, but control doesn't seem to negatively effect anyone except for the entities that started the war in the first place.

Personally, Shepard voiced my issue with Control when talking to TIM:

"If we destroy the Reapers, this ends today. But if you can't control them..."

The ends of Destroy (re: no more Reapers) justified the means.
The ends of Control were an questionable in their permanence. After all, the current Catalyst would be getting replaced. What if the same could happen to Shepbinger?
The ends of Synthesis sound utopian, but the means cannot be justified in my mind. Also, the ends did not include "no more Reapers".

Even if Synthesis is truly inevitable, it should happen on each individual's terms.

Modifié par Thorn Harvestar, 29 juin 2012 - 07:04 .

[KingWrex]

nhcre8tv1 wrote...

KingWrex wrote...

fle6isnow wrote...

Excellent post, Rob. I've posted similar thoughts before on the board in defense of the previous endings, but not as eloquently as you did. Basically, a big, fat THIS to everything you're saying.

You should check out Spec Ops The Line my friend. I never liked the endings of ME still don't(don't want to get into a debate as to why they don't belong) but this game did make me view them a bit more differently

Personally, I thought it was a generic brown shooter with a graphics budget that could fill the Taj Mahal, but I guess now my view has changed. I guess they marketed it like that to suprise us.

Problem is that it starts out slow and you don't get to any of the real meat till your well into the 3rd or 4rth chapter. And the demo is basically the first two levels in a nutshell(can't blame either all these moments are pivotal to the plot). But like I have said probably too many times we all here like a great story and this one is excellent.

[Torrible]

dreman9999 wrote...

Let me explain it clearly for you... Synthsis is the same choice as the geth rewrite chioce on legions mission.

You are assuming that Synthesis will rewrite our personalities. I'm thinking it won't.

[Geneaux486]

Torrible wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Let me explain it clearly for you... Synthsis is the same choice as the geth rewrite chioce on legions mission.

You are assuming that Synthesis will rewrite our personalities. I'm thinking it won't.

Yeah, everyone seems to be in tact.  Also, if anything synthesis is the same choice Legion made at the end of the Rannoch story arc in ME3, losing his own life while distributing the things that made him unique to the rest of his race.

[Thorn Harvestar]

This post (crossposted from tumblr) sums up my issues with Synthesis pretty well:

http://social.biowar.../index/12857070

[Torrible]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Let me explain it clearly for you... Synthsis is the same choice as the geth rewrite chioce on legions mission.

You are assuming that Synthesis will rewrite our personalities. I'm thinking it won't.

Yeah, everyone seems to be in tact.  Also, if anything synthesis is the same choice Legion made at the end of the Rannoch story arc in ME3, losing his own life while distributing the things that made him unique to the rest of his race.

Agreed, except we are not even giving up that much. We are only giving up a little of what makes us human (unadulterated DNA) and getting so much more in return. Finally, sentient lives can fully understand one another.

[Geneaux486]

Torrible wrote...
Agreed, except we are not even giving up that much. We are only giving up a little of what makes us human (unadulterated DNA) and getting so much more in return. Finally, sentient lives can fully understand one another.

Yeah, I still think that if it truly is the genetic destiny of organics that it's best to let them reach that point naturally, but I wouldn't say anyone who picked synthesis did something wrong, just ain't what I choose.

[Wowky]

Awesome post OP. I can't say I ever really looked at it that way, that's a great interpretation.

Also, you've got me interested in trying this Spec Ops game. I overlooked it at first because it just seemed like an action-packed shooter, I didn't realise it had such an intense story and complex choices. Definitely want to try it now.

[Reptilian Rob]

Torrible wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Let me explain it clearly for you... Synthsis is the same choice as the geth rewrite chioce on legions mission.

You are assuming that Synthesis will rewrite our personalities. I'm thinking it won't.

It's stated as canon that everyone can now see, hear and witness the collective information of the others. No one is an individual anymore at that point. Even if they retain their individual self, they can no longer be "alone" as an individual. 

Is this what you want? Do you even know who you are anymore?

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 29 juin 2012 - 09:13 .

[Ieldra]

OP, your post gets a place of honor in my thread subscription list. This is exactly one of the messages sent by the ending, and it needs to be sent.

Liara: "I can't be that callous."
Javik: "War doesn't always provide you a choice."

This is one of the moments where I really like Javik. You can see that this truth weighs heavily on him, and possibly decisions he had to make because of it, but he acknowledges it nonetheless. He doesn't shy away from it and demand that reality changes itself to accomodate him.

[Reptilian Rob]

Ieldra2 wrote...

OP, your post gets a place of honor in my thread subscription list. This is exactly one of the messages sent by the ending, and it needs to be sent.

Liara: "I can't be that callous."
Javik: "War doesn't always provide you a choice."

This is one of the moments where I really like Javik. You can see that this truth weighs heavily on him, and possibly decisions he had to make because of it, but he acknowledges it nonetheless. He doesn't shy away from it and demand that reality changes itself to accomodate him.

Thanks! I do my best, just trying to shed light on the ending a bit or at least try to. I hated Javik at first, but like Miranda in ME2 he grew on me as he started to mature and see the galaxy as we did. 

[TheBlackBaron]

This is precisely why I despise the Reject ending. To sign the death warrant of all the advances species of the galaxy, to let it burn upon the altar of philosophy, all to "stay true to Shepard's morals" and a childish desire to stand up the (admittedly crappy) star kid.

It's probably a good thing that Shepard never has to live with what he's done. The things that must be done to take one of the other three are nothing compared to that.

Well said, Rob, well said indeed.

...

...

...

So, The Line. It's pretty good, then? I've been intrigued ever since they showed off the sand mechanisms and discussed how Heart of Darkness was their literary inspiration.

[Reptilian Rob]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

This is precisely why I despise the Reject ending. To sign the death warrant of all the advances species of the galaxy, to let it burn upon the altar of philosophy, all to "stay true to Shepard's morals" and a childish desire to stand up the (admittedly crappy) star kid.

It's probably a good thing that Shepard never has to live with what he's done. The things that must be done to take one of the other three are nothing compared to that.

Well said, Rob, well said indeed.

...

...

...

So, The Line. It's pretty good, then? I've been intrigued ever since they showed off the sand mechanisms and discussed how Heart of Darkness was their literary inspiration.

THE LINE set my brain on fire, made me question who I was and showed me a side of gaming I will never...Forget. 

No matter how many chocies you make, you never make the right one...

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 29 juin 2012 - 09:31 .

[Torrible]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Torrible wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Let me explain it clearly for you... Synthsis is the same choice as the geth rewrite chioce on legions mission.

You are assuming that Synthesis will rewrite our personalities. I'm thinking it won't.

It's stated as canon that everyone can now see, hear and witness the collective information of the others. No one is an individual anymore at that point. Even if they retain their individual self, they can no longer be "alone" as an individual. 

Is this what you want? Do you even know who you are anymore?

Where was it explicitly stated? I don't think synthesis made every sentient lifeform part of a collective hive mind. Even Legion emerged/evolved from the hive mind as an individual. Synthesis would have made him even more 'sentient'. The scenario you depicted would be even more nightmarish than low EMS Destroy, so there's no way Bioware would have intended it to be a good ending.There's no hearing the thoughts of billions of lifeforms throughout the Galaxy. Otherwise, everyone's immediate reponse would be to go stark raving mad.

I think Synthesis just made for near instantaneous (voluntary, like using a cellphone) sharing/ processing/ transmission of information amongst species and between organics and synthetics. Everyone would be capable of direct neural inferfacing with communication devices. Synthesis may be frightening to us but in the ME universe, bio-amps and human-computer interfacing are pretty common anyway.

Modifié par Torrible, 29 juin 2012 - 10:09 .

[MoZedK]

To the OP great post.

For me this ending dosent fit in ME, at the simplest that it changes the Genre of the game at the very last bit. At this simple thing it does not belong in this game IMO. Another reason could be that you cange the centrale confilct.

I could go on.

What I wanted to say is to gove a pad on the your back and say nicely writte/done.

[BladyMZ]

First off, I'm very happy that Spec Ops won on story front (now I can't wait to play it), I've always felt, that no matter how copy-paste the combat will be, story will make up for it.

Now, Mass Effect 3 ending. When I played it the first time, back in march, reaching the end was a mixed bag. I really liked "fight" with Illusive Man, goodbye with the entire team (even if whole London mission was awfull). When GodElevator and GodChild appeared I lost any connection to the game world, I was like someone dissconnected me from the Matrix, so I wasn't paying to much attention to what the kid is saying. Yet, I forced myself to care and think about the choices, so I did.

At first I thought it is a test (yes, way befor IT theory), kinda like Architect from Matrix. He gives 3 bad choices and the only good one is to reject them. I shot the kid in the face multiple times, looked for his "power source", shot objects around me, time was up.

I reloaded the save and went "ok, so they gave us 3 very hard choices, with no explenation, build-up or needed knowledge." Like you said, Rob, it was not the matter of "which choice to I want", but "which will be least bad".

So I took Destroy. Felt really bad about the Geth and EDI (never kid myself into belLIEving they could survive). I wanted to feel like it meant something, but it didn't. At least back then.

Now, after EC it all changed. Yup, it is still not a great ending to Mass Effect series. But it is at least an "ok" ending to an "ok game". And the choice you make really tell a lot about you. I simply can-not understand why would anyone ever choose Synthesis, yet alone praise how great it is, how amazing the cut-scenes in EC are. Who are you to change entire life forever?

Control, back in the day, was a big gamble. I, for one, thought my Shepard is not strong enough to handle controlling Reapers, yet Control seemed like the best ending. Sacrifice to save everyone. But then I thought about becoming the new Harbinger, maybe gaining new perspective, in which Shep would go "Yup, he was right the entire time. Reaping continues!". There was no way to be sure Shep will be strong enough. With EC, not only he takes control over every-Reaper-alive, he uses them as tools, instead of directing into exploding sun. Becomes Space Jesus/Space Ares and people are so happy with it. Really, egomaniacs, that is your "perfect" outcome?

Reject seemed like a cool idea, people will argue if it should be possible to win game with enough EMS etc. but I think not taking the chance to end the war, once and for all, for sake of "it is against my ideology" is really sellfish act.

I chose Destroy and still think it is the "best among bad", yes, it is sad synthethics die, but cold math, which they use, would tell them the same thing I thought - if you can end a cycle of destruction that stratches back millions of years, you take that chance.

In conclusion - no, the ending is not great, it is still poorly written, with Deus Ex Machina, Deus Ex end rip-off, Crucible MacGuffin and lack of previous decisions changing anything. Yet, the choices given are hard enough to think about them, and the EC gives you some idea what the outcome would be. Question remains... why would anyone choose Synthesis?

[MrDbow]

Just dropping in to say...

What an absolute pleasure this particular series of posts has been to read through.

Great job, Guys & Gals...

[kristopherah]

Really good thread (Probably the best one i have seen on this site) I think the endings would have worked better if Javik was not a DLC character he really puts the whole morality/good of the galaxy into perspective. All of Javik's lines are so well done. He is almost as awsome as Garrus almost

[BladyMZ]

Javik and Garrus being so cool in ME3 = John Dombrow. Thank the man, who gave us those characters, and the Tuchanka mission as well. Had he wrote the London/End mission, with Patrick Weekes at his side...Hold The Line would never be needed, I'm sure of it.

From what I've heard, it is the WeekBrow combo that wrote most of the Extended Cut - well, that must have been a challenge. Take a 14 sentence conversation with a deus-ex machina child-character and 3 colored explosions and turn them into a meaningfull endings. Those guys have talent!

[Hvlukas]

Thank you for this thread. It was about time somebody took the leap away from blaming Bioware for the choices presented in the game and took the discussion back into the game and what it meant for the story. [Bat Troll Repellent Bat Spray]

I agree with most of what you said. To me, it isn't so interesting what the mechanical choices in the game are, or how they are presented by Bioware (though the are better presented with the Extended Cut), but the discussion we can now have about why a certain choice is better than another. All in all, I think the endings all have a relative morallity to them. There's no right or wrong, there's no "Bioware wants you to think this or that", or "Casey wants us to do this and that", but ultimately only a question of: What is your choice, and why? NOW we can discuss why I chose Synthesis and you chose Destroy, but the core difference between us is our morality and not something "approved by Casey". Isn't it? 

My destroy is as correct as your refuse or synthesis. The difference is player input of meaning and justification. Just like everything else based on choice in Mass Effect.

[Ieldra]

Torrible wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Torrible wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Let me explain it clearly for you... Synthsis is the same choice as the geth rewrite chioce on legions mission.

You are assuming that Synthesis will rewrite our personalities. I'm thinking it won't.

It's stated as canon that everyone can now see, hear and witness the collective information of the others. No one is an individual anymore at that point. Even if they retain their individual self, they can no longer be "alone" as an individual. 

Is this what you want? Do you even know who you are anymore?

Where was it explicitly stated? I don't think synthesis made every sentient lifeform part of a collective hive mind. Even Legion emerged/evolved from the hive mind as an individual. Synthesis would have made him even more 'sentient'. The scenario you depicted would be even more nightmarish than low EMS Destroy, so there's no way Bioware would have intended it to be a good ending.There's no hearing the thoughts of billions of lifeforms throughout the Galaxy. Otherwise, everyone's immediate reponse would be to go stark raving mad.

I think Synthesis just made for near instantaneous (voluntary, like using a cellphone) sharing/ processing/ transmission of information amongst species and between organics and synthetics. Everyone would be capable of direct neural inferfacing with communication devices. Synthesis may be frightening to us but in the ME universe, bio-amps and human-computer interfacing are pretty common anyway.

That's my interpretation as well. Synthesis appears to make the mindlink possible I proposed in my Synthesis thread (inspired by Siduri's epilogues, to give proper credit) before the EC was out, and it may even be possible to conjoin minds, but nowhere is it even remotely hinted that there would be a galactic hive mind.

[lillitheris]

Good, if lengthy. I posted this a bit earlier:

Refuse is a romantic choice.

By which I mean it sounds nice and lofty to reject all reaper stuffs, so long as you can ignore the part where your lover, friends, and the rest of the galaxy spend the rest of their relatively short lives in constant pain, dread, and grief, numbers ever-dwindling, on the run, knowing they’re going to lose and it’s only a matter of time before an unkind death.

Synthesis is a jump into the unknown, and it can be achieved through Control after further research. There is no reason to choose Synthesis over Control.

Control seems reasonable, but it has big question marks attached…and I can’t truthfully say that I am willing to make the sacrifice.

Therefore, I Destroy, and (hopefully) live with my lover, friends…and the consequences.

[memorysquid]

lillitheris wrote...

Good, if lengthy. I posted this a bit earlier:

Refuse is a romantic choice.

By which I mean it sounds nice and lofty to reject all reaper stuffs, so long as you can ignore the part where your lover, friends, and the rest of the galaxy spend the rest of their relatively short lives in constant pain, dread, and grief, numbers ever-dwindling, on the run, knowing they’re going to lose and it’s only a matter of time before an unkind death.

Synthesis is a jump into the unknown, and it can be achieved through Control after further research. There is no reason to choose Synthesis over Control.

Control seems reasonable, but it has big question marks attached…and I can’t truthfully say that I am willing to make the sacrifice.

Therefore, I Destroy, and (hopefully) live with my lover, friends…and the consequences.

Out of curiosity, would you choose destroy if the nominal sacrifice were the human race rather than all synthetics?

[Laurencio]

I keep telling myself to pick Control, because from the ending vids it seems like a fairly good choice, but for some reason I always end up picking Destroy. I just don't trust the Reapers, and I do not trust the Catalyst. Better for them to be gone for good than suddenly turn on the galaxy again in my opinion.

All the endings have some pretty harsh consequences to be honest.

[BladyMZ]

I would also like to point out, Destroy would have been so much better choice, if we knew from the start, that Shepard is going to survive, no "even you are partly synthethic" line. Then many would have to question themselfs - is my life more meaningfull than entire geth race? Will I sacrifice myself (control), but let machines live?

on the other hand...

I chose Destroy on my first go, having played no MP, so my Shepard died in an explosion. It made more sense, he couldn't survive the explosion shown in the cutscenes, as well as fall to Earth (IF that is London rubble, not crucibles). It would also gave sense to slide of my LI, Miranda, looking into sky - I mean, COME ON, why is she looking up, when I'm buried in rubble? I've said it like gazylion times already, but lack of care for Jack/Miranda brings my ****** to a boil.

Modifié par BladyMZ, 29 juin 2012 - 01:45 .