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There are no "good" choices, there are no "bad" choices. There is only the LINE.


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#251
Divitiacus

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Shepard isn't here to engage in intellectual masturbation, which is all it is when someone comes out of nowhere presenting you a trilemma. It would be more organic and superior if these were questions and sacrifices built up and considered over the course of the series. Oddly they were, only they were presented as the ideas of villains whom we defeated in a very conventional manner (of course in ME 1 we had to make a choice about sacrificing a bunch of people we gave no crap about as we barely dealt with them or saw any development of them, so they were tools to us).

Thus it pulls the rug out, instead of being satisfying and interesting, it's frustrating. It's not a space opera brilliance if we go in for one experience, say to get a beej, and then we get  castrated and are left to ponder the nature of human sexuality and self-worth. It is instead intellectually satisfying if we have a story presenting us a theme about say replicants, what is a human, and then we are left at the end to ponder if Decker is a replicant. Second game, pull together group despite human prejudice (flipped here) and come together defeat horrible threat nobody thinks you can defeat. Third game, it really doesn't matter if you spend the game bringing nobody together, (get Wrex killed, bring back the genophage, wipe out the Rachni, kill either the Geth or the Quarians, and for added lulz kill off the Quarians on purpose just to then wipe out the Geth) and it doesn't matter, you can still synthesize or whatever you want and you win. You can be galactic pariah and win. Not like horribly so with too low military readiness, but nonethless the idea of getting people past their differences disappears and in the end the differences are emphasized as fact by the space baby. Thematically it's been discussed in depth why this is ridiculous, but even looking at it in terms of war it's idiotic because not every war story is identical. Thus you're reading out a lot of delivery and focusing on the end in a vacuum to get your thought provoking ending, but I could do the same to a blank white wall. If you want to inject a ton of meaning into something without any, that's easy to do and people do it all the time. It doesn't make the story brilliant, it means you have an imagination and strive for meaning in things for whatever reason. The problem is you're bringing this in, and it's not there in the text coming at you instead. A good way for what you want to occur would be this time Shepard commands people to go on a suicide mission, this is the way war would affect Shepard and this time he can't put himself on the line but has to send someone else to die. Having to choose non-sequiter endings from a being never before hinted at is nothing more than a denied climax.

I mean the easiest way to disprove your argument is that synthesis isn't even presented as horrible in the story. If you just go by what you see, Shepard becomes robo-Jesus and everyone lives happily ever after! Some tough choice. War doesn't make you make compromises as to your morality, it makes you Jesus.

You were inspired by a better story, are taking the message felt viscerally from that game, and then in an attempt to enjoy this game are basically transferring that, but it's all within you bringing that meaning into it because the game itself failed to do it. This is also easy to see because you had to play that game first, and you were against the endings after you first completed the game. The game's story itself is faulty if it requires this much outside effort you bring in from something else's creative capital.

Modifié par Divitiacus, 29 juin 2012 - 03:34 .


#252
sAxMoNkI

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Very insightful comments OP and a very interesting read over all.
To me the EC was a sucess as it shows that it was worth crossing that line (whichever you picked) and it wasn't all for nothing.
I personally favour destroy as life remains the closest to how it was before, the genocide of the Geth and the death of EDI is too high a price for what was achieved but it was the only price that could be paid in my view, synthesis and control changed everything too radically.
I won't deny that Shepard living was a plus point, however it was not a deciding factor for me.
Like Garrus said "It's the ruthless calculus of war, 10 billion die over here so that 20 billion live over there". The loss of one race to preserve all others seemed the lesser of 3 evils as opposed to the fundamental alteration of all life or the godlike ascension of Shepard to moral arbiter of the galaxy.

I know other people find destroy utterly unacceptable, but I guess this is the point; they are unwilling to cross the line presented in destroy while conversely I cannot bring myself to cross the lines presented in sythesis or control.

#253
txmn1016

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sAxMoNkI wrote...

I know other people find destroy utterly unacceptable, but I guess this is the point; they are unwilling to cross the line presented in destroy while conversely I cannot bring myself to cross the lines presented in sythesis or control.


Morally speaking I totally agree with you.  Destroy is the only option I can personally agree with.  But the beauty of the RP experience of this game is that not all of my Shepards follow my personal morality and would thus find the other options to be preferable.  

#254
Exeider

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EC address the minor concerns that people have had with the endings, Joker going coward, normandy crash, etc.

But the overall point at least from a moral point is that Destroy is the BEST of a series of bad choices. No one WANTs to kill the Geth or EDI, and any of those dependent on technology to live. But committing what amounts to Hitler-style creation of a master race or controlling the reapers, that will no doubt corrupt the Shepard consciousness at some point, and take us completely unawares, i mean your response time is going to crap when you have these things living in your back yard.

Destroy is the only viable ending that retains as much morality as it is survival, I feel that the Geth and EDI would understand, it's not that we want to do it, but because the catalyst forced us into it.



#255
Gterror2

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OP original post makes me think about Batman in The Dark Knight ending somehow.

#256
jakal66

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Such good points OP, finally a thread which seems well thought and also with posters discussing in an adult form, anyhow; I felt the right choice was always destry it was what my Shep had set out to do, but the EC made the other endings more viable for me, I also chose control and felt it was also acceptable to be used.I haven't seen the Synthesis one(new) but i will choose it in my actual playthrough.I must say that destroy puts you in position that is very human and realistic in a certain way, a soldier must sometimes choose to save the many with sacrifice, I loved the geth, Legion was one of my favourite charachters, yet I found myself choosing destroy without thinking that much, and then the feeling sunk.

That I had wiped out the geth had serious consequences, and I'm guessing my shep will always be haunted by this, but remember he also sacrificed the batarians before.A lot weighs in my Shep minds, and if he does reunite with his LI and tries to live a normal life( like many soldiers do) he will have these thoughts till the end of his days.Even EDI which I didn't feel any attachment to, made me feel bad because I thought of the moment of having to face Joker and say how sorry about killing the love of his life(although I find that romance silly,still).I am proud of Bioware...cheap ass happy ending would have satisfied a lot of people sure, and it would have been an easy choice.I'm glad they didn't stick to it but I am sure many will disagree with me and that's OK and respected too.

#257
Reptilian Rob

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Divitiacus wrote...

Shepard isn't here to engage in intellectual masturbation, which is all it is when someone comes out of nowhere presenting you a trilemma. It would be more organic and superior if these were questions and sacrifices built up and considered over the course of the series. Oddly they were, only they were presented as the ideas of villains whom we defeated in a very conventional manner (of course in ME 1 we had to make a choice about sacrificing a bunch of people we gave no crap about as we barely dealt with them or saw any development of them, so they were tools to us).

Thus it pulls the rug out, instead of being satisfying and interesting, it's frustrating. It's not a space opera brilliance if we go in for one experience, say to get a beej, and then we get  castrated and are left to ponder the nature of human sexuality and self-worth. It is instead intellectually satisfying if we have a story presenting us a theme about say replicants, what is a human, and then we are left at the end to ponder if Decker is a replicant. Second game, pull together group despite human prejudice (flipped here) and come together defeat horrible threat nobody thinks you can defeat. Third game, it really doesn't matter if you spend the game bringing nobody together, (get Wrex killed, bring back the genophage, wipe out the Rachni, kill either the Geth or the Quarians, and for added lulz kill off the Quarians on purpose just to then wipe out the Geth) and it doesn't matter, you can still synthesize or whatever you want and you win. You can be galactic pariah and win. Not like horribly so with too low military readiness, but nonethless the idea of getting people past their differences disappears and in the end the differences are emphasized as fact by the space baby. Thematically it's been discussed in depth why this is ridiculous, but even looking at it in terms of war it's idiotic because not every war story is identical. Thus you're reading out a lot of delivery and focusing on the end in a vacuum to get your thought provoking ending, but I could do the same to a blank white wall. If you want to inject a ton of meaning into something without any, that's easy to do and people do it all the time. It doesn't make the story brilliant, it means you have an imagination and strive for meaning in things for whatever reason. The problem is you're bringing this in, and it's not there in the text coming at you instead. A good way for what you want to occur would be this time Shepard commands people to go on a suicide mission, this is the way war would affect Shepard and this time he can't put himself on the line but has to send someone else to die. Having to choose non-sequiter endings from a being never before hinted at is nothing more than a denied climax.

I mean the easiest way to disprove your argument is that synthesis isn't even presented as horrible in the story. If you just go by what you see, Shepard becomes robo-Jesus and everyone lives happily ever after! Some tough choice. War doesn't make you make compromises as to your morality, it makes you Jesus.

You were inspired by a better story, are taking the message felt viscerally from that game, and then in an attempt to enjoy this game are basically transferring that, but it's all within you bringing that meaning into it because the game itself failed to do it. This is also easy to see because you had to play that game first, and you were against the endings after you first completed the game. The game's story itself is faulty if it requires this much outside effort you bring in from something else's creative capital.

The points I have made in previous pages can maybe give you some insight on narritive flows within operatics, I think pages 4-8. 

Not every way story is identical, and ME told a very different war story now that the EC was released. It no longer comes down to a choice, it comes down how far you are willing to throw your morals. 

#258
Reptilian Rob

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memorysquid wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Good, if lengthy. I posted this a bit earlier:

Refuse is a romantic choice.

By which I mean it sounds nice and lofty to reject all reaper stuffs, so long as you can ignore the part where your lover, friends, and the rest of the galaxy spend the rest of their relatively short lives in constant pain, dread, and grief, numbers ever-dwindling, on the run, knowing they’re going to lose and it’s only a matter of time before an unkind death.

Synthesis is a jump into the unknown, and it can be achieved through Control after further research. There is no reason to choose Synthesis over Control.

Control seems reasonable, but it has big question marks attached…and I can’t truthfully say that I am willing to make the sacrifice.

Therefore, I Destroy, and (hopefully) live with my lover, friends…and the consequences.


Out of curiosity, would you choose destroy if the nominal sacrifice were the human race rather than all synthetics?

Oh, absolutely. 

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 30 juin 2012 - 12:10 .


#259
AtlasMickey

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Reptilian Rob. What did you get kicked out of HTL too?

Welcome to the club, man!

#260
Reptilian Rob

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AtlasMickey wrote...

Reptilian Rob. What did you get kicked out of HTL too?

Welcome to the club, man!

No, still a proud member!

#261
Crashjr32123

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

(Bear with me, this relates to Mass Effect, let me intro this thing first. Sorry in advance for spelling or grammatical issues, I don't have my contects in...Let it also be known that I would not have written this if the EC was horrible or the endings were never fixed. So this relates specifically to the EC.)

I recently finished Spec Ops THE LINE, and as a student of Literature and military versed (not in the military myself, but most of my family is) person I can tell you it is the most intense game I have ever played in my twenty four years of gaming. I've never felt sick to my stomach in a game until now, I've never questioned who I was as a person for a good three hours and I've never had an such a visceral and horrific reaction as I did to that game. It's a choice driven game like ME, and all the choices you make, no matter how moral you think they are, are always bad choices. There are no moralities which are right and even though I went back and played the game three times each choice I made no matter how different was horrific and made me cross a moral line. It's not that I never crossed the line, it's to what degree I crossed it. 



It takes a strong man to admit what he's done...It takes a stronger man to deny what's right in front of him...

 

"Spec Ops: The Line" to me was confusing, but the way you summed up the ending opened my eyes up a bit. Also the ending to that game has also caused me to look at ME3 in that same exact way. Love how you took both of these games and were able to relate the two.

#262
Reptilian Rob

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Crashjr32123 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

(Bear with me, this relates to Mass Effect, let me intro this thing first. Sorry in advance for spelling or grammatical issues, I don't have my contects in...Let it also be known that I would not have written this if the EC was horrible or the endings were never fixed. So this relates specifically to the EC.)

I recently finished Spec Ops THE LINE, and as a student of Literature and military versed (not in the military myself, but most of my family is) person I can tell you it is the most intense game I have ever played in my twenty four years of gaming. I've never felt sick to my stomach in a game until now, I've never questioned who I was as a person for a good three hours and I've never had an such a visceral and horrific reaction as I did to that game. It's a choice driven game like ME, and all the choices you make, no matter how moral you think they are, are always bad choices. There are no moralities which are right and even though I went back and played the game three times each choice I made no matter how different was horrific and made me cross a moral line. It's not that I never crossed the line, it's to what degree I crossed it. 



It takes a strong man to admit what he's done...It takes a stronger man to deny what's right in front of him...

 

"Spec Ops: The Line" to me was confusing, but the way you summed up the ending opened my eyes up a bit. Also the ending to that game has also caused me to look at ME3 in that same exact way. Love how you took both of these games and were able to relate the two.




Taking two peices of literature and contrasting them is my job...I have to be good at it. LOL

Thanks though! :):):)