261 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." - Carl Sagan

[Reptilian Rob]

Taboo-XX wrote...

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." - Carl Sagan

"Love breaks down, the second a bullet grazes your skull." - Alan Seeger

[Taboo]

Carl Sagan > Your opinion

[WizenSlinky0]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I'd rather die or doom the planet to die than cross my own personal lines to survive.

So the lives of the trillions of others, from dozens of speices mean nothing to you? You would stand to your morals, rather than do what was nessasary for the survival of the galaxy?

Correct, sorta. It does mean something to me. But that doesn't mean I can make a decision against my morals. Because I believe sacrificing your humanity for survival would be a fate far worse than extinction. Sorry, but that's my stance.

So don't put the fate of the galaxy in my hands if a decision I disagree with has to be made and you're good to go.

[Geneaux486]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." - Carl Sagan

"Love breaks down, the second a bullet grazes your skull." - Alan Seeger

"The goddess in me has stopped dancing."  -Gilbert Gottfried

[Reptilian Rob]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Carl Sagan > Your opinion

I'll bet all my stocks that he would cross the line of murder if his or one of his familie's lives were in danger.

Peace is the mindset of the rational, survival is the mindset.

[Taboo]

"Talking about art is like dancing about architecture" - David Bowie

[Huitzil]

Reptilian Rob wrote...
War is war, doesn't matter how it's presented. 

You could not possibly be more wrong and still be speaking a coherent language. This is you trying to sound wise and worldly and mature and ignoring everything about storytelling.

Mass Effect 3 is not an actual war. It is a story. It is a story that fits into a larger whole (Mass Effect 1 and 2). Presenting the war in the story in different ways makes it a different story.

The Lord of the Rings depicts a story about a war, and such a war is presented as being between clear good and evil, and its message about how the seductive nature of power turns the former into the latter. 

Apocalypse Now is also about a war, a pointless war that dehumanizes and degrades everyone involved. 

Despite the fact that they are both stories about wars, if you were to give them each other's ending, they would be terrible stories. 

[Thorn Harvestar]

Great post, Rob.

I'm with Taboo. My paragon Shepard picked Destroy, because he felt the only way to prove the Reapers wrong was to remove them from the equation entirely.

My Shepard is not looking forward to having to face Joker after recovering from his wounds. Even though I'm sure Joker would find the other choices abhorrent or suicidal, I'd be afraid that I've just destroyed one of my Shepard's oldest friendships.

Neither do the Geth deserve what I've dealt them, but I have faith that the quarians have learned from their mistakes in their brief stretch of co-existant peace. At least, enough of them to matter. I would hope that they rebuild the Geth.

There are lots of trips to the bar in store for my Shepard. I'm just glad he'll have Garrus around to support him as he deals with the reality of what he has done.

Modifié par Thorn Harvestar, 29 juin 2012 - 04:16 .

[viggorrah]

I'm kinda late but excellent post, Rob. I completely agree.

[Reptilian Rob]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I'd rather die or doom the planet to die than cross my own personal lines to survive.

So the lives of the trillions of others, from dozens of speices mean nothing to you? You would stand to your morals, rather than do what was nessasary for the survival of the galaxy?

Correct, sorta. It does mean something to me. But that doesn't mean I can make a decision against my morals. Because I believe sacrificing your humanity for survival would be a fate far worse than extinction. Sorry, but that's my stance.

So don't put the fate of the galaxy in my hands if a decision I disagree with has to be made and you're good to go.

A line held, not crossed. 

[plfranke]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I'd rather die or doom the planet to die than cross my own personal lines to survive.

So the lives of the trillions of others, from dozens of speices mean nothing to you? You would stand to your morals, rather than do what was nessasary for the survival of the galaxy?

Well I think the point was that in a hypothetical situation (or a video game) it's easy to make a decision like that because logically it makes sense to pick trillions over dozens. However, if any of us were placed in a real situation where that decision was for some reason was totally dependent on us (that's highly unlikely to ever happen even in war) it would not be that simple.

[dreman9999]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I am a monster for choosing Destroy. It goes against everything I stand for. Everything.

But I could not allow the other two options to occur. I had to make a choice.

This is the only reason I choose Destroy.

Being alive is just as much a sacrifice in this scenario as Synthesis is. My sacrifice is innocence of mind. My Shepard has PTSD already, I can't imagine how bad his nights are going to be when he wakes up in the Hospital.

I'd certainly feel bad about it, I know I would.

Miranda? Being in a relationship doesn't fix the world. It may make it easier, but the struggles are FAR from over for my Shepard.

I'm glad someone else feels this. I want to cry for what I did to EDI AND THE GETH.

[Reptilian Rob]

Huitzil wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
War is war, doesn't matter how it's presented. 

You could not possibly be more wrong and still be speaking a coherent language. This is you trying to sound wise and worldly and mature and ignoring everything about storytelling.

The story isn't the point, it's the narritive. 

In literature it's called the "Flip-end Scenario" when you have a character conform to a rational situation through the eyes of his moral values (Your, moral values.)

When you take that away from him, you take it away from the reader/player/watcher and make him/her think not in terms of what you were previously telling him/her but for theirselves.

Again, it takes a strong man to admit what he did was wrong. It takes a stronger man to deny what is right in front of him. 

You are the stronger man, than I. 

Also, Heart of Darkness. Not APOC NOW. 

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 29 juin 2012 - 04:20 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

A line held, not crossed. 

Indeed. But I am not a fool. I recognize that on a logical level my morality really means nothing. It doesn't change what's going to happen or that bad things could happen because I held that line.

However, I personally would not cross it regardless in any hypothetical situation and most likely any actual situation. Though, it's hard for anyone to say with 100% certainty without actually being there. The fact is I have my line and I cannot imagine anything. Not love, survival, loyalty, profit, etc. that could make me cross it.

And I've always been prepared to live with the consequences of that choice. If I'm lucky the consequences won't be galactic extinction.

But as someone mentioned it's a lot easier to make the choice you don't believe in for a fictional world where your morality holds no real sway. It's a logical decision instead of a moral decision.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 29 juin 2012 - 04:22 .

[Gravbh]

Damn good post OP. When viewed in that light it makes the refuse ending look rather self-centered, doesn't it? "yeah, every single advanced race in the galaxy will go extinct, but at least I didn't have to make a tough choice!"

[dreman9999]

Huitzil wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
War is war, doesn't matter how it's presented. 

You could not possibly be more wrong and still be speaking a coherent language. This is you trying to sound wise and worldly and mature and ignoring everything about storytelling.

Mass Effect 3 is not an actual war. It is a story. It is a story that fits into a larger whole (Mass Effect 1 and 2). Presenting the war in the story in different ways makes it a different story.

The Lord of the Rings depicts a story about a war, and such a war is presented as being between clear good and evil, and its message about how the seductive nature of power turns the former into the latter. 

Apocalypse Now is also about a war, a pointless war that dehumanizes and degrades everyone involved. 

Despite the fact that they are both stories about wars, if you were to give them each other's ending, they would be terrible stories. 

It being a story does not stop it from being a war. You given choice in it at the cost of lives. Is it a good thing for your ego to cost live of trillions or your humblness to cost the lives of millions? Killing all the geth is bad but allowing the death of all advance life is worse.

[D24O]

From a roleplaying perspective, I agree totally. As much as I hate the options, I know Shepard would never let everyone he cares about die just to make himself feel like he's sticking to his morals. He's limping towards his poison because he knows that it's the only way.

From a metatextual perspective though, I think that completely discounting the idea of keeping to ones morality creates some measure of thematic disconnect with the rest of the trilogy (although only if the next cycle ends up being railroaded into using the crucible and brushing aside our stupid, principled body). The way I see it, the two games are telling pretty different stories, and having the option to let the galaxy win on its own terms preserves the ME trilogy's story better, even when I do end up choosing one of the 3 options.

[Huitzil]

Framing this as "oh this is about how far you would go to save the galaxy" misses another point, even beyond the point that "this wasn't what the game was about until the last 20 minutes".

Namely, that the scenario given to us to allegedly test how far we would go is very, very stupid. It makes no sense. It is contradicted thematically and factually. It doesn't matter what we would do when presented with this choice because the choice is nonsensical even within the logic of the Mass Effect world.It's like asking us "would you murder and eat a handicapped infant if not doing so meant allowing New York to be nuked off the map". The only answer to that question is "That is stupid, that would never happen, and anyone who ever believed those were his only choices is an idiot with no critical thinking skills."

[dreman9999]

plfranke wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I'd rather die or doom the planet to die than cross my own personal lines to survive.

So the lives of the trillions of others, from dozens of speices mean nothing to you? You would stand to your morals, rather than do what was nessasary for the survival of the galaxy?

Well I think the point was that in a hypothetical situation (or a video game) it's easy to make a decision like that because logically it makes sense to pick trillions over dozens. However, if any of us were placed in a real situation where that decision was for some reason was totally dependent on us (that's highly unlikely to ever happen even in war) it would not be that simple.

It was not even a simlpe choice in the game. I loved EDI( like a daughter) but making that choice was hard to make.

[dreamgazer]

Very interesting post, Rob. Way to go.

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

My paragon Shepard picked Destroy, because he felt the only way to prove the Reapers wrong was to remove them from the equation entirely.

My Shepard is not looking forward to having to face Joker after recovering from his wounds. Even though I'm sure Joker would find the other choices abhorrent or suicidal, I'd be afraid that I've just destroyed one of my Shepard's oldest friendships.

Neither do the Geth deserve what I've dealt them, but I have faith that the quarians have learned from their mistakes in their brief stretch of co-existant peace. At least, enough of them to matter. I would hope that they rebuild the Geth.

There are lots of trips to the bar in store for my Shepard. I'm just glad he'll have Garrus around to support him as he deals with the reality of what he has done.

(thumbs up)

[Reptilian Rob]

Huitzil wrote...
Namely, that the scenario given to us to allegedly test how far we would go is very, very stupid. It makes no sense. It is contradicted thematically and factually.

It was before the EC, not after.

And rule of thumb with space operatics is that the story never has a true narritive flow, it twists and turns and does not follow a general theme. Not saying that the original endings were great here, they sucked major donkey balls. But the EC fixed the nonsense and turned ME back into an operatic voyage. 

[dreman9999]

Huitzil wrote...

Framing this as "oh this is about how far you would go to save the galaxy" misses another point, even beyond the point that "this wasn't what the game was about until the last 20 minutes".

Namely, that the scenario given to us to allegedly test how far we would go is very, very stupid. It makes no sense. It is contradicted thematically and factually. It doesn't matter what we would do when presented with this choice because the choice is nonsensical even within the logic of the Mass Effect world.It's like asking us "would you murder and eat a handicapped infant if not doing so meant allowing New York to be nuked off the map". The only answer to that question is "That is stupid, that would never happen, and anyone who ever believed those were his only choices is an idiot with no critical thinking skills."

....This is what the series is about. Where was this"sacrificing people is stupid" talk when we did it in ME1 with the alliance/ council/vs .
The end choice lives up to the choice we always had in ME1.

[Reptilian Rob]

dreman9999 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I'd rather die or doom the planet to die than cross my own personal lines to survive.

So the lives of the trillions of others, from dozens of speices mean nothing to you? You would stand to your morals, rather than do what was nessasary for the survival of the galaxy?

Well I think the point was that in a hypothetical situation (or a video game) it's easy to make a decision like that because logically it makes sense to pick trillions over dozens. However, if any of us were placed in a real situation where that decision was for some reason was totally dependent on us (that's highly unlikely to ever happen even in war) it would not be that simple.

It was not even a simlpe choice in the game. I loved EDI( like a daughter) but making that choice was hard to make.

At first...I didn't want to cross that line.

But then I thought of Palaven, Thessia, Tuchanka and every other planet who was fighting the Reapers at that moment...And I crossed it. 

[WizenSlinky0]

dreman9999 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I'd rather die or doom the planet to die than cross my own personal lines to survive.

So the lives of the trillions of others, from dozens of speices mean nothing to you? You would stand to your morals, rather than do what was nessasary for the survival of the galaxy?

Well I think the point was that in a hypothetical situation (or a video game) it's easy to make a decision like that because logically it makes sense to pick trillions over dozens. However, if any of us were placed in a real situation where that decision was for some reason was totally dependent on us (that's highly unlikely to ever happen even in war) it would not be that simple.

It was not even a simlpe choice in the game. I loved EDI( like a daughter) but making that choice was hard to make.

I adored EDI. However, it did make it a difficult choice. Because in a fictional world I find it very easy to approach things from a logical standpoint or a "who cares" attitude. Either/or.

However, logic is often taken out of the equation when it comes to actually having to cross the line with real, long lasting consequences on the line.