261 réponses à ce sujet

[Reptilian Rob]

Torrible wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Torrible wrote...

The best choice is the one that results in the most happiness. In crude terms, it means the one that results in the most number of people surviving. If you see the Geth as people, then Control and Synthesis are far superior to Destroy which is far superior to Refuse. Some may say that it is evil to think of sentient lives in terms of pure mathematics but those people never had to make the hard decision that Shepard did.

Happy =/= Free

LOL Synthesis.

How are they not free? They retained the same memories that shaped their personalities which enables them to act freely but now, even better, their mental faculties are enchanced by cybernetics. They probably age less and would be free from diseases now that their immune system is boosted by technology. Synthesis is transhumanism.

Everyone is the same person, Synthesis combines all races into one as a single unit with different forms. It's a BIG step to take over that line...

But do what is nessasary to survive. 

[EnvyTB075]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

It will set your brain on fire, and make you question the person you are for a good three days. 

Only three?

[Taboo]

One unit?

**** me.

A hive mind is linked. Everyone would share things.

I like being me thanks.

[KingWrex]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

It will set your brain on fire, and make you question the person you are for a good three days. 

Only three?

.
Maybe more depends on the person in question

[CronoDragoon]

Torrible wrote...

The best choice is the one that results in the most happiness. In crude terms, it means the one that results in the most number of people surviving. If you see the Geth as people, then Control and Synthesis are far superior to Destroy which is far superior to Refuse. Some may say that it is evil to think of sentient lives in terms of pure mathematics but those people never had to make the hard decision that Shepard did.

True if you are a utilitarian, one of many moral paradigms. I think it is a legitimate way of looking at things even if I don't agree in this case.

[dreman9999]

Torrible wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Torrible wrote...

The best choice is the one that results in the most happiness. In crude terms, it means the one that results in the most number of people surviving. If you see the Geth as people, then Control and Synthesis are far superior to Destroy which is far superior to Refuse. Some may say that it is evil to think of sentient lives in terms of pure mathematics but those people never had to make the hard decision that Shepard did.

Happy =/= Free

LOL Synthesis.

How are they not free? They retained the same memories that shaped their personalities which enables them to act freely but now, even better, their mental faculties are enchanced by cybernetics. This means they are less inclined to do stupid things like wage wars or anything else that can doom sentient lives. They probably age less and would be free from diseases now that their immune systems are boosted by technology. Synthesis is transhumanism.

Let me explain it clearly for you... Synthsis is the same choice as the geth rewrite chioce on legions mission.

[Reptilian Rob]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

It will set your brain on fire, and make you question the person you are for a good three days. 

Only three?

That's a long time to keep asking yourself "Do I know you?" 

[Taboo]

Idealism. In. Philosophy. Makes me want to set my crotch on fire.

You can only prevent things by removing traits FROM beings.

Synthesis won't solve anything in this case.

[Reptilian Rob]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

the 3 choices are not the galaxy winning on their terms, it is not Shepard winning on her/his terms, which breaks a massive theme established in the past two games.

I played ME1 because Shepard climbed out of that rubble.
I played ME2 because with enough work, you could ensure everyones survival, including your own.
I did not pay ME3 because I knew that no matter what I did, I could not win, just compromise.

I saw a blog post today about how ME3 was no longer Shepard's story: it was a story of war and sacrifice. We can argue about whether or not it should have been until the cows come home, but it is what it is.

The end choices are in line with that. Up until this point, Shepard has been able to stick to his/her own morals when making galaxy-shaping decisions. There has always been a paragon choice and a renegade choice. There is no paragon or renegade choice at the end of ME3. The end choices of ME3 force you to make the most difficult decision in the trilogy yet: ones that are neither straight-up moral or tactically calculating. Again, you can argue whether or not this belonged in the trilogy, but it is in line with the rest of ME3 and what it was about. I don't personally agree with the direction ME3 took, taking so much focus off of Shepard and trying to go sci-fi noir, but the end choices do reflect this game. They are neither good nor evil: you have to cross a line to save the galaxy in each and every one of them. To stick to your own morals means certain death for everyone...do I necessarily agree with this being in Mass Effect? No, not necessarily. However, it's a valid theme and makes sense...something the endings and their themes didn't before.

Again, I've said this so much I feel like a broken record: I don't think these endings fit Mass Effect. I don't think the StarChild fits Mass Effect. However, we knew that with the EC these things wouldn't change. I agree with Miracle of Sound when he says that the endings are now emotionally satisfying, but still not logically satisfying. At least these endings make some semblance of sense now, even if they don't fit with what Mass Effect was. 

I don't think we can expect "Mass Effect" endings here...the entirety of ME3 is too broken for that. The whole game put the focus on the wrong things. The endings took up a theme that seemed like it was thought up and slapped on at the last minute...to remove that now would mean re-thinking the game as a whole a lot. I just don't see that happening. Mass Effect 3 tried to wax philosophical and go deep where ME1 and ME2 didn't...they were character-centric with some themes, not theme-centric with some characters like ME3. I don't think there's anything we can do about that.

Good post, Rob. Glad that late-night discussions can be productive. Lol.

I agree with all of this.

And this is a deep ****ing thread...Again props to all who are in here, no matter your stance! This is good stuff to the max. <3

[Torrible]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Torrible wrote...

The best choice is the one that results in the most happiness. In crude terms, it means the one that results in the most number of people surviving. If you see the Geth as people, then Control and Synthesis are far superior to Destroy which is far superior to Refuse. Some may say that it is evil to think of sentient lives in terms of pure mathematics but those people never had to make the hard decision that Shepard did.

Happy =/= Free

LOL Synthesis.

How are they not free? They retained the same memories that shaped their personalities which enables them to act freely but now, even better, their mental faculties are enchanced by cybernetics. They probably age less and would be free from diseases now that their immune system is boosted by technology. Synthesis is transhumanism.

Transhumanism is rooted in an existential fear. It should be voluntary. People must WANT it.

You have zero right to afffect all beings for all time.

I would kill myself before I allowed you to do that to me.

That's one death on your shoulders.

Synthesis is preferrable to dying. Notice that none of the people afflicted by synthesis were distraught to the point of wanting to seek death. Maybe it doesn't work the way you think it does. And maybe Synthesis comes with understanding what is needed to transcend life, and their enchanced intelligence allows them to conclude that it is for the better.

Modifié par Torrible, 29 juin 2012 - 06:16 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Idealism. In. Philosophy. Makes me want to set my crotch on fire.

You can only prevent things by removing traits FROM beings.

Synthesis won't solve anything in this case.

It is forcing everyone to become one, with no inherent individuality. Everyone is linked with one another, everyone is essentially Geth.

Again, a line that takes very...Very strong person to cross.

[dreman9999]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Idealism. In. Philosophy. Makes me want to set my crotch on fire.

You can only prevent things by removing traits FROM beings.

Synthesis won't solve anything in this case.

But it will impose a salution without anyone knowing about it. The reason why it will workis because no one is in the right mind any more tosay it's wrong.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 juin 2012 - 06:18 .

[Taboo]

That isn't the point. You have no right to make the decision for ALL people for ALL time.

Everyone is going to be Synthesized. For ALL time.

That is an incredibly narcissistic stance.

I alone know what's best for all life, for ALL time.

**** me that's scary.

[Reptilian Rob]

Torrible wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Torrible wrote...

The best choice is the one that results in the most happiness. In crude terms, it means the one that results in the most number of people surviving. If you see the Geth as people, then Control and Synthesis are far superior to Destroy which is far superior to Refuse. Some may say that it is evil to think of sentient lives in terms of pure mathematics but those people never had to make the hard decision that Shepard did.

Happy =/= Free

LOL Synthesis.

How are they not free? They retained the same memories that shaped their personalities which enables them to act freely but now, even better, their mental faculties are enchanced by cybernetics. They probably age less and would be free from diseases now that their immune system is boosted by technology. Synthesis is transhumanism.

Transhumanism is rooted in an existential fear. It should be voluntary. People must WANT it.

You have zero right to afffect all beings for all time.

I would kill myself before I allowed you to do that to me.

That's one death on your shoulders.

Synthesis is preferrable to dying. Notice that none of the people afflicted by synthesis were distraught to the point of wanting to seek death. Maybe it doesn't work the way you think it does. And maybe Synthesis comes with understanding what is needed to transcend life, and their enchanced intelligence allows them to conclude that it is for the better.

Is it preferable to the removal of your individualism, the very reason you live?

I don't know...I just don't know.

[chuckles471]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

KingWrex wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

KingWrex wrote...

Reptilian just finished Spec Ops The Line just like a few minutes ago I was about to start a thread comparing the two but ya beat me to it sort of....anyway while I agree we you somewhat in the end Mass Effect and Spec Ops are very different games. "The Line" is in this game and it makes me feel a little differently about the overall ending choice but the fact is there are just to many plotholes for this ending to work. Sure they patched a few with EC but its still (using a ship analogy here) sinking just slower

Please tell me you **** your pants and felt like you were going to throw up after you dropped the White Phosphate...

Made the alpha relay look like a joke man. The number maybe higher but when you actually see this..... I was just......blown away I guess

That game made IT look like a joke...

The end man...Oh my god the end...I was just shellshocked.

Nobody saw that ending coming?  I was half way through and called it but the tv advert gave me the clues.
The phosphorus was cool but /dawns flame suit nowhere near CODs Nuke scene. 

[nhcre8tv1]

Whoa.
Perspective of the whole game has just been changed.

Modifié par nhcre8tv1, 29 juin 2012 - 07:32 .

[dreman9999]

Taboo-XX wrote...

That isn't the point. You have no right to make the decision for ALL people for ALL time.

Everyone is going to be Synthesized. For ALL time.

That is an incredibly narcissistic stance.

I alone know what's best for all life, for ALL time.

**** me that's scary.

And that's why it's wrong. I never said it was right. But I can still see how some one can justify itlike any of the other choices.

[Geneaux486]

Taboo-XX wrote...

One unit?

**** me.

A hive mind is linked. Everyone would share things.

I like being me thanks.

After hearing the description of synthesis in EC I think back to what Legion said, "Organics do not know each other's minds, Geth do".  I think synthesis changes that, that while each person keeps their individuality, what they gain is enlightenment, and a genuine understanding of the hearts and minds of their fellow living organisms.  I don't think it's a hive mind scenario so much as just a galactic mutual understanding.

[Taboo]

You can do that with education. There is no need for Synthesis.

[Reptilian Rob]

chuckles471 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

KingWrex wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

KingWrex wrote...

Reptilian just finished Spec Ops The Line just like a few minutes ago I was about to start a thread comparing the two but ya beat me to it sort of....anyway while I agree we you somewhat in the end Mass Effect and Spec Ops are very different games. "The Line" is in this game and it makes me feel a little differently about the overall ending choice but the fact is there are just to many plotholes for this ending to work. Sure they patched a few with EC but its still (using a ship analogy here) sinking just slower

Please tell me you **** your pants and felt like you were going to throw up after you dropped the White Phosphate...

Made the alpha relay look like a joke man. The number maybe higher but when you actually see this..... I was just......blown away I guess

That game made IT look like a joke...

The end man...Oh my god the end...I was just shellshocked.

Nobody saw that ending coming?  I was half way through and called it but the tv advert gave me the clues.
The phosphorus was cool but /dawns flame suit nowhere near CODs Nuke scene. 

I would disagree, but to each his/her own!

[Lili Dragunova]

Reptilian Rob wrote...
You crossed a line for the survival of the many...

You did what was nessasary. 

Doesn't mean you're gonna feel good about having to do it.

[KingWrex]

Torrible wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Torrible wrote...

The best choice is the one that results in the most happiness. In crude terms, it means the one that results in the most number of people surviving. If you see the Geth as people, then Control and Synthesis are far superior to Destroy which is far superior to Refuse. Some may say that it is evil to think of sentient lives in terms of pure mathematics but those people never had to make the hard decision that Shepard did.

Happy =/= Free

LOL Synthesis.

How are they not free? They retained the same memories that shaped their personalities which enables them to act freely but now, even better, their mental faculties are enchanced by cybernetics. They probably age less and would be free from diseases now that their immune system is boosted by technology. Synthesis is transhumanism.

Transhumanism is rooted in an existential fear. It should be voluntary. People must WANT it.

You have zero right to afffect all beings for all time.

I would kill myself before I allowed you to do that to me.

That's one death on your shoulders.

Synthesis is preferrable to dying. Notice that none of the people afflicted by synthesis were distraught to the point of wanting to seek death. Maybe it doesn't work the way you think it does. And maybe Synthesis comes with understanding what is needed to transcend life, and their enchanced intelligence allows them to conclude that it is for the better.

Maybe in your opinion man but hell not for me it ain't. I won't cross that line when there are other that I fell are better solutions but you know that just my opinion

[PrimeOfValor]

Jonata wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'd still feel terrible.

Do people REALLY think that being alive and in a relationship will cure everything WRONG with this scenario.

While I do not know where your Shepard will be after the endings, I'm pretty sure being alive and in a relationship at least can cure most of the problems faced with Destroy.

Shepard already coped with the death of 300.000 Batarians alone, while stranded on Earth and knowing that those deaths actually only slowed down the reapers a couple of months. 

Give him enough time with his LI, dealing with PTSD and help rebuilding the Galaxy, and everything will be fine. There will be though moments, but (excuse me for the cheesyness) time and love together are one hell of a medicine. 

[Torrible]

Reptilian Rob wrote...


Is it preferable to the removal of your individualism, the very reason you live?

I don't know...I just don't know.

You are assuming synthesis reduces individuality because of the neural connection to everyone else. Maybe it does. But it is not so different from how we are now. Our minds are constantly being shaped by opinions of celebrities, society and friends. Our lives are constantly shaped by forces beyond our control. We have less individuality and freedom that we think. The drawbacks of synthesis should not be ignored, I suppose, but I think the fear of Synthesis is rooted in the same human psychology that makes us fear change.

[Geneaux486]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You can do that with education.

Not to that extent, I mean we're talking true understanding, peace, harmony, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I don't choose it either.  If it really is our genetic destiny we'll get there naturally.