230 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

glacier1701 wrote...

Good read and shows up the fallacies of Synthesis clearly. One point that should have had people scratching their heads when going through the explanations is that CONTROL also offers a new mode of existence though just for Shepard. And as shown pretty much seems to be as good as or better than the one in Synthesis. In other words stating that Synthesis is the final evolution is a lie when there is another option in evolution available in Control which is as powerful and DOES NOT involve a forced choice on everyone just ONE person. The Catalyst is simply so full of flaws that it is best to get rid of it which is what happens only in DESTROY.

Former Catalyst is a goner in Control as well.

Modifié par Mesina2, 29 juin 2012 - 03:51 .

[rumination888]

Uncle Jo wrote...

rumination888 wrote...


He didn't say "organics seek perfection through technological progress". He said "technology". A book is technology. Writing is technology. A treadmill is technology. Shoes are technology. A blender is technology. A farm tool is technology.

Agreed. However, technology is IMO about finding a solution (or improve it) to a given problem without fundamentally change what you are, which synthesis do.

We're organics, flawed and mortal, that's how the nature made every single living being. We evolve according to this postulate and that's our purpose : try to overcome our limits by ourselves, with the help of technology but without turning into something completely different.

Which is apparently not the opinion of the guy who came up with the insane idea of Synthesis.

The human mind is a piece of data. It hasn't evolved to the point where it can transfer itself to different mediums. It can only exist in our human body. Once our medium/body dies, our data/mind is lost forever. Hence, we are mortal.

In the ME universe, it has been shown that the human mind can transfer itself to different mediums with the aid of technology. We see this in Project Overlord, we see this in Kasumi's Stolen Memory, and we see this in the Quarian/Geth conflict in ME3. Humans in the ME universe can already become immortal before the synthesis ending. (philosophically speaking, it can also be said that humans in the real world can become immortal with the aid of books or other existing technology)

Now imagine if you evolved to the point where you could transfer yourself to different mediums without the aid of technology. Imagine if it was a biological function. Thats what synthesis does. You're only immortal if you choose to be. You're only completely different if you choose to be.

This doesn't excuse the fact that Shepard forces this evolution down everyones throats, but it doesn't matter. None of the endings are supposed to be completely positive for the galaxy. Shepard becomes ****ing C'thulu in Control, all machines are destroyed in Destroy (the red light is basically a galaxy-wide EMP pulse, which means HUMANS who rely on machines to live, like pacemakers, are now dead, not just Geth and EDI), Reapers win the current cycle in Reject, and you know what happens in Synthesis.

(I enjoyed every single ending choice presented, BTW. The writing and execution of the scenes could've been a little better, but each choice is sound)

Modifié par rumination888, 29 juin 2012 - 04:34 .

[Uncle Jo]

rumination888 wrote...

The human mind is a piece of data. It hasn't evolved to the point where it can transfer itself to different mediums. It can only exist in our human body. Once our medium/body dies, our data/mind is lost forever. Hence, we are mortal.

In the ME universe, it has been shown that the human mind can transfer itself to different mediums with the aid of technology. We see this in Project Overlord, we see this in Kasumi's Stolen Memory, and we see this in the Quarian/Geth conflict in ME3. Humans in the ME universe can already become immortal before the synthesis ending. (philosophically speaking, it can also be said that humans in the real world can become immortal with the aid of books or other existing technology)

Now imagine if you evolved to the point where you could transfer yourself to different mediums without the aid of technology. Imagine if it was a biological function. Thats what synthesis does. You're only immortal if you choose to be. You're only completely different if you choose to be.

This doesn't excuse the fact that Shepard forces this evolution down everyones throats, but it doesn't matter. None of the endings are supposed to be completely positive for the galaxy. Shepard becomes ****ing C'thulu in Control, all machines are destroyed in Destroy (the red light is basically a galaxy-wide EMP pulse, which means HUMANS who rely on machines to live, like pacemakers, are now dead, not just Geth and EDI), Reapers win the current cycle in Reject, and you know what happens in Synthesis.

(I enjoyed every single ending choice presented, BTW. The writing and execution of the scenes could've been a little better, but each choice is sound)

Respectfully disagree. What makes us what we are, is not only our mind (which can be considered as piece of data) but also the body we have. The combination of both makes every living being unique.

To overcome our own mortality, we, organics, already have one solution : reproduction. We survive partly through our descendants. We live and eventually die to make place to the next ones, transmitting our "data" genetically and  teaching them the few that we know, hoping they'll do better than us. It's the natural order in the "chaotic organic life", the ultimate goal of evolution, I'd say.

To live forever is an old, human, but selfish desire. Personally I think that knowing that you'll someday die, is the price to pay to really understand how beautiful, precious but also fragile life is.

As for the (new) endings,the choices are still based on a false assumption (you know, "synthetics always blahblahblah...") and on a sudden, forced hatred of synthetics. So I'm sorry, but I couldn't appreciate them like they should have been. And while Reject, Control and Destroy fit in the ME universe, Synthesis will stay the most absurd, out of place and repulsive one. Not to say that it always was the wet dream of the Reapers...

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 29 juin 2012 - 05:21 .

[OhoniX]

Humanely altering all life in the galaxy is the same as slaughtering
an entire species. They stop being an individual species. Sure they may
look like Asari with green glowy crap, but they are still genetically
altered to be pseudo-Shepards.

It's nowhere near the same thing. They're still who they are, they just have other traits. It's like saying that if you forcibly dyed everyone's hair red that would be equivalent to murdering them all. Yes, their genes have been altered, but there's still gentic diversity, a Krogan is still vastly different than a Salarian, and their children will continue to be different. There's not even any indication that they can interbreed (any more than they could before). They were in no way made genetically identical, they were just "spiked" with a little dose of Shep.

If they died, they would END. Their lives would be over and that would be in. As it is, they go on, pretty much exactly as if the Reapers never happened, only now with built-in wifi.

Some people may commit suicide. An entire race, too young to be space faring, may panic and genocide themselves.

Maybe. But that would be their choice. You can't be responsible for the choices that other people make.

Heck, we can't even all agree in the same thread - there is no way the
whole entire universe is going to be happy about being genetically
raped.

Why not? You don't know how it feels. It may feel great. I don't see any reason to believe there would be an automatic mass rejection of it, and again, if they do, that's their problem.

Synthesis is the same as saying everyone on the planet must become
scientologists and we get no say in it. AND everyone must undergo skin
altering surgery to change the colour of their skin to orange and their
eyes all the same, and we get no say in it. AND we all have to learn and
speak a new universal language and we get no say in it. Why? Because if
we change all these things, we will have perfected ourselves, and will
understand each other better because we have eliminated our differences.

Look, I have no interest in doing any of those things by default, but if I were faced with 100% global annihilation as the alternative, OR if the other alternative were that all white people in th world would have to die, I'd choose the "adapt" option over the "genocide" option.

This is a fantastic article, and the point about Javik is especially
salient. Honestly, if you think that Synthesis is a Paragon option, you
need to consider your crewman. You need to consider if he actually knew
what was happening to him and what he became, would he be fine with it
or horrified and repulsed? The Javik I knew wouldn't hesitate to blow
his brains out rather than become a synthetic-hybrid.

But here's the thing. I would agree with you that if you tell Javik "You either put a round into your head right now, OR I'll convert you into a half-synthetic," he probably would shot himself. Seems in character. However, AFTER the conversion, would the same be true? It's like eating a food that you are wary of, if someone tells me "here, eat this disgusting looking animal bit." I might go "ew, hell no." But maybe if I did eat it, it would turn out to be really tasty, and then, having actually experienced it for myself, I would no longer reject it. Javik was definitely afraid of mechnicals synthesis as an unknown quantity, but that's no reason to believe that he would reject it AFTER having experienced it.

If you somehow think altering not only the physical structure but the
personalities, priorities, moralities, and goals of every living
creature in the galaxy is an acceptable solution, you are no paragon.

There's no indication in the green ending that sythesis alters anyone's personalities, priorities, moralities, or goals in any way. All actions taken in the green ending are consistent with normal behavior, and are in fact identical to how people behave in the other two endings in most cases.

"Synthesis is eugenics. You are being told that rewriting genes is
the only way to create good life. To eliminate “inferior” lifeforms. Our
genetic makeup makes us evil. It has to be altered. The very nature of
synthetics makes them evil. Don’t even give them a chance. Even though
the geth and EDI were explicitly shown to be entirely peaceful and only
ever acted in defence of themselves. No. They’re bad. They have to be
changed. They’re not like you. They have to become part of this master
race.”

Remember that agreeing to choose the synthesis solution does not mean that you agree with the Catalysts reasons for it. By that I mean, YOU never have to agree that humans or synthetics are inherently flawed or will come into conflict. All you have to do is understand the fact that the REAPERS believe this, and that to get them to stop killing everyone, this is one way to do it. You're basically tainting their food supply.

I think just about everyone outside of BW HQ agrees that synthesis is horrific and monstrous.

Nope.

Good read and shows up the fallacies of Synthesis clearly. One point
that should have had people scratching their heads when going through
the explanations is that CONTROL also offers a new mode of existence
though just for Shepard. And as shown pretty much seems to be as good as
or better than the one in Synthesis. In other words stating that
Synthesis is the final evolution is a lie when there is another option
in evolution available in Control which is as powerful and DOES NOT
involve a forced choice on everyone just ONE person. The Catalyst is
simply so full of flaws that it is best to get rid of it which is what
happens only in DESTROY.

There's nothing that says that the Control and Destroy endings don't lead to synthesis eventually as well, as a natural process of evolution.

[the slynx]

Been avoiding this thread for a while, though I'm not sure why. Turns out the OP is quite good. Thanks for posting this.

Although I think I'm going to have nightmares of the Normandy crew turning into a street dance troupe now.

[MissMaster_2]

And this is why I LOVE Tumblr.

[rumination888]

Uncle Jo wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

The human mind is a piece of data. It hasn't evolved to the point where it can transfer itself to different mediums. It can only exist in our human body. Once our medium/body dies, our data/mind is lost forever. Hence, we are mortal.

In the ME universe, it has been shown that the human mind can transfer itself to different mediums with the aid of technology. We see this in Project Overlord, we see this in Kasumi's Stolen Memory, and we see this in the Quarian/Geth conflict in ME3. Humans in the ME universe can already become immortal before the synthesis ending. (philosophically speaking, it can also be said that humans in the real world can become immortal with the aid of books or other existing technology)

Now imagine if you evolved to the point where you could transfer yourself to different mediums without the aid of technology. Imagine if it was a biological function. Thats what synthesis does. You're only immortal if you choose to be. You're only completely different if you choose to be.

This doesn't excuse the fact that Shepard forces this evolution down everyones throats, but it doesn't matter. None of the endings are supposed to be completely positive for the galaxy. Shepard becomes ****ing C'thulu in Control, all machines are destroyed in Destroy (the red light is basically a galaxy-wide EMP pulse, which means HUMANS who rely on machines to live, like pacemakers, are now dead, not just Geth and EDI), Reapers win the current cycle in Reject, and you know what happens in Synthesis.

(I enjoyed every single ending choice presented, BTW. The writing and execution of the scenes could've been a little better, but each choice is sound)

Respectfully disagree. What makes us what we are, is not only our mind (which can be considered as piece of data) but also the body we have. The combination of both makes every living being unique.

To overcome our own mortality, we, organics, already have one solution : reproduction. We survive partly through our descendants. We live and eventually die to make place to the next ones, transmitting our "data" genetically and  teaching them the few that we know, hoping they'll do better than us. It's the natural order in the "chaotic organic life", the ultimate goal of evolution, I'd say.

To live forever is an old, human, but selfish desire. Personally I think that knowing that you'll someday die, is the price to pay to really understand how beautiful, precious but also fragile life is.

As for the (new) endings,the choices are still based on a false assumption (you know, "synthetics always blahblahblah...") and on a sudden, forced hatred of synthetics. So I'm sorry, but I couldn't appreciate them like they should have been. And while Reject, Control and Destroy fit in the ME universe, Synthesis will stay the most absurd, out of place and repulsive one. Not to say that it always was the wet dream of the Reapers...

The ME universe is based off of the theory of technological singularity.

Control Ending = technological singularity occurs, Super AI rules the world
Synthesis Ending = technological singularity occurs, Man and Machine are fused
Destroy Ending = technlogical singularity is delayed, let people in the future deal with it
Reject Ending = technological singularity is delayed, let people in the future deal with it

Every ending fits, including synthesis.

ME devs even used the critics of the theory in their writing by manifesting them as Reapers. Opponents of the theory say civilization will collapse and technology will regress before the singularity occurs.... and that is the Reapers in a nutshell.

Modifié par rumination888, 29 juin 2012 - 05:58 .

[Uncle Jo]

OhoniX wrote...
It's nowhere near the same thing. They're still who they are, they just have other traits. It's like saying that if you forcibly dyed everyone's hair red that would be equivalent to murdering them all. Yes, their genes have been altered, but there's still gentic diversity, a Krogan is still vastly different than a Salarian, and their children will continue to be different. There's not even any indication that they can interbreed (any more than they could before). They were in no way made genetically identical, they were just "spiked" with a little dose of Shep.

If they died, they would END. Their lives would be over and that would be in. As it is, they go on, pretty much exactly as if the Reapers never happened, only now with built-in wifi.

Amazing logic. You've just turned into cyborgs/hybrids, modified their DNA. How can they still be the same as before ? For your information, there is a little difference between dying hair (which is a superficial and reversible change) and transforming every one into cyborgs.

Maybe. But that would be their choice. You can't be responsible for the choices that other people make

No it's not. You chose synthesis. Your responsibility.

Why not? You don't know how it feels. It may feel great. I don't see any reason to believe there would be an automatic mass rejection of it, and again, if they do, that's their problem.

1.Assumption. 2. Really ? So that's their problem ? Actually no, again it's entirely yours, since YOU decided to change them.

Look, I have no interest in doing any of those things by default, but if I were faced with 100% global annihilation as the alternative, OR if the other alternative were that all white people in th world would have to die, I'd choose the "adapt" option over the "genocide" option.

That's your opinion. I still remember you that even if you didn't kill anyone, you've transformed every single living thing in the galaxy, without their consent. Don't know which is worse.

But here's the thing. I would agree with you that if you tell Javik "You either put a round into your head right now, OR I'll convert you into a half-synthetic," he probably would shot himself. Seems in character. However, AFTER the conversion, would the same be true? It's like eating a food that you are wary of, if someone tells me "here, eat this disgusting looking animal bit." I might go "ew, hell no." But maybe if I did eat it, it would turn out to be really tasty, and then, having actually experienced it for myself, I would no longer reject it. Javik was definitely afraid of mechnicals synthesis as an unknown quantity, but that's no reason to believe that he would reject it AFTER having experienced it.

Problem is that you forced the person to eat this apparently disgusting food with you not even knowing what it really tastes...

There's no indication in the green ending that sythesis alters anyone's personalities, priorities, moralities, or goals in any way. All actions taken in the green ending are consistent with normal behavior, and are in fact identical to how people behave in the other two endings in most cases.

According to the slideshows, indeed. However, the long term consequences are absolutely unknown. You've just changed every single living being on a molecular scale. Introduced the concept of immortality. No way that their behaviour or their world's comprehension didn't change as well. So I highly doubt they still think the same way as before they were raped enhanced.

Remember that agreeing to choose the synthesis solution does not mean that you agree with the Catalysts reasons for it. By that I mean, YOU never have to agree that humans or synthetics are inherently flawed or will come into conflict. All you have to do is understand the fact that the REAPERS believe this, and that to get them to stop killing everyone, this is one way to do it. You're basically tainting their food supply.

The other two options do it as well. Destroy at the cost of the Geth and EDI, Control by becoming yourself the Reapergod (which is still better than turning everyone into cyborgs).

There's nothing that says that the Control and Destroy endings don't lead to synthesis eventually as well, as a natural process of evolution.

Again pure assumption. Remember that only the Catalyst is the only one who considers it as inevitable (and you if you agree with him)

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 29 juin 2012 - 07:38 .

[Uncle Jo]

rumination888 wrote...

The ME universe is based off of the theory of technological singularity.

Control Ending = technological singularity occurs, Super AI rules the world
Synthesis Ending = technological singularity occurs, Man and Machine are fused
Destroy Ending = technlogical singularity is delayed, let people in the future deal with it
Reject Ending = technological singularity is delayed, let people in the future deal with it

Every ending fits, including synthesis.

ME devs even used the critics of the theory in their writing by manifesting them as Reapers. Opponents of the theory say civilization will collapse and technology will regress before the singularity occurs.... and that is the Reapers in a nutshell.

The Starbrat said that he was the catalyst of the peace between organics and synthetics, overseer of the relations between them. Well, if he always worked the same way he did with the Geth (ME1), I'm not surprised that it always ended in conflicts.

He's a synthetic created by organics. In return he created synthetics to kill organics, to prevent organics to be killed by synthetics. Wow. That makes sense.

All the three games were about the Reapers against every one. 

EDIT : Casey Hudson: "That's something we reveal over time. You see humans being harvested and processed to become fuel for the way Reapers reproduce. This is their reproductive cycle and we're just a part of it. We're nothing to them."


Source: www.computerandvideogames.com/309188/mass-effect-3-bioware-on-surprises-inspiration-and-tough-decisions/

They turn us into a goo  (in other words they help us ascend) to reproduce, thus replacing their eventual losses and/or enhancing themselves, since they're partly organics. And that was more plausible than the current insane circular logic of the Brat.

- What did EDI say on the Normandy after the Horizon Mission ? "The Reapers are repulsive. They only think of self-preservation". (The part about the containment camps was worth to hear, just in case you forgot what the true nature of the Reapers is)

- What did we learn in the end of the game about the Geth ? That they could have wiped out the Quarians during the morning war but prefered to let the survivors escape. And isolated themselves in order to avoid conflict with the organics.

- In Mass Effect 2 ?That EDI after she took control of the Normandy, could get rid of the crew but instead chose to help. In ME3 she evolved and can even mate go out with Joker.

- What did Javik say about their war against the Machines during their cycle ? They turned the tide and were about to win and then the Reapers showed up.

And yet the Space troll which pops out of nowhere (ahh, deus ex machina), makes your archenemies look like mindless puppets and spit out his nonsense about the synthetics/organics, as justification for its countless pre-emptive galactic genocides ?

What it does consider as an inevitability, is only a possibility. It could happen (hell, he's the proof of that) but the outcome isn't necessary the organics ending wiped out (Geth, Javiks war against the synthetics).

That's why I'll never agree on the terms or premises of the brat on which are based the choices. I have no problem with making sacrifices or Shep dying, but I'll never play his game under these circumstances. And I honestly don't understand what in the hell happened in the writers head to come up with this BS...

We've fought all along the three games to find a way to coexist peacefully although we're different. I've brockered peace between Quarians and the Geth without Synthesis. Without changing them.
Synthetics are that what they are, as well as organics do. And it should stay as it is. That makes the real richness of the ME Universe. So yes, Synthesis is absurd, revolting and thematically out of place....

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 29 juin 2012 - 10:38 .

[mauro2222]

It seems that people fail to grasp the change of mindset it requires to be immortal or simply being able to understand everyone. If people are okay with that and don't suffer any kind of mental inestability means that Synthesis changed not only their bodies but their mindset, it fundametally changed what they are and who they are.

So, when the OP says they are not the same people, he's right.

Modifié par mauro2222, 29 juin 2012 - 07:02 .

[andy6915]

rumination888 wrote...

 all machines are destroyed in Destroy (the red light is basically a galaxy-wide EMP pulse, which means HUMANS who rely on machines to live, like pacemakers, are now dead, not just Geth and EDI)

Uh... No. The things destroyed or damaged in the red blast are Reaper tech. You know, Reapers themselves, EDI who is based on Reaper tech, and Geth who used Reaper tech to gain true sapience. So unless  you somehow have a Reaper pacemaker, you're fine.

[MaleQuariansFTW]

 If you don't like Synthesis, don't choose it. 

[Uncle Jo]

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

 If you don't like Synthesis, don't choose it. 

Cool story bro.

[OhoniX]

Amazing logic. You've just turned into cyborgs/hybrids, modified their DNA. How can they still be the same as before ? For your information, there is a little difference between dying hair (which is a superficial and reversible change) and transforming every one into cyborgs.

It makes a change in their life, it does not redefine who they are. It's like if someone loses a limb and has it replaced with a prosthesis, their life is different, sure, but they are not a different person. "green ending" Liara is still Liara. She's still the Shadowbroker, she's still (in my game at least) Shep's ex, she still has the same sorts of thoughts and feelings that she would have had before the synth, she's just got greenish eyes, greenish skin, and a USB port. It's not like the Syth changed their internal identity, it just changed their physical capabilities. I mean, pop your brain out of your body and put it into someone else's, you might be stronger or weaker, you might have to adapt a bit, but you'd still be you.

Now, twenty, fifty years down the line, will people be in a different place than they would be in the other two endings? Probably, but that's true of any choice of consequence, the people in the Control ending are certainly much different after fifty years than those in the Refuse ending.

No it's not. You chose synthesis. Your responsibility.

No. Shep would be responsible for the Synthesis itself, not for how people choose to react to it. The Synthesis doesn't kill people, people kill people.

1.Assumption. 2. Really ? So that's their problem ? Actually no, again it's entirely yours, since YOU decided to change them.

Well, given that nobody in the Green ending seemed to be freaking out about it, it can't be as unpleasant as you make it out to be. And if they do kill themselves, then that's sad, but it's their choice, and if I hadn't made the choice I did, then maybe they'd be dead, or at the very least millions of other people would be dead, and they didn't have any choice in that. I would rather take the choice that leaves everyone alive to choose whether to move on or not themselves, than one where my choice automatically results in genocide.

That's your opinion. I still remember you that even if you didn't kill anyone, you've transformed every single living thing in the galaxy, without their consent. Don't know which is worse.

I do, that's why I chose the Green ending.

Problem is that you forced the person to eat this apparently disgusting food with you not even knowing what it really tastes...

Yeah, and fair enough, jerk move on my part, isn't something I would do for the hell of it, but it's a pittance compared to genocide.

So I highfully doubt they still think the same way as before they were raped enhanced.

By the way, your casual use of the term "rape" is highly inappropriate. I doubt any rape victims would agree that the term applies here.

The other two options do it as well. Destroy at the cost of the Geth and EDI, Control by becoming yourself the Reapergod (which is still better than turning everyone into cyborgs).

Yes, all options other than "refuse" lead to the Reapers' defeat within this cycle, my point is that the Green ending is the way of doing so with minimal casualties and without the headache of the Control ending. I would rather be free and wifi-enabled than live under a digital space god.

Again pure assumption. Remember that only the Catalyst is the only one who considers it as inevitable (and you if you agree with him)

And plenty of futurists. It'll happen. Maybe not in their lifetime, but eventually we'll either reach synthesis of some type or be wiped out.

He's a synthetic created by organics. In return he created synthetics to kill organics, to prevent organics to be killed by synthetics. Wow. That makes sense.

The Catalyst's goal is a bit like a gardener that prunes weeds so that flowers can grow. His goal is not to preserve all life, and he doesn't consider all of Humanity to be of any specific value over any other civilization, he's just mowing the lawn when it gets too high and then allowing it to grow again. He neither allows it to grow completely out of control, nor some he completely ravage the lawn such that no more grass will grow.

[CroGamer002]

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

 If you don't like Synthesis, don't choose it. 

Sorry, but Synthesis is a cancer to ME franchise.

It goes completely against ME stands for.

[OblivionDawn]

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

 If you don't like Synthesis, don't choose it. 

/thread

It's a game guys. You can make great, elaborate, dissertations on why you think Synthesis is "galactic rape" and "pure evil" or whatever. But in the end, you aren't really doing anything important. People who pick Synthesis, for whatever reasons they may have, don't give a damn what you think because it's a game and it doesn't have any real world implications.

[Sylvianus]

Wow, that was epic ! Awesome !

XD

[rumination888]

Uncle Jo wrote...
snip...

- Reapers were made to preserve civilizations from being destroyed by synthetics, not to protect organics from synthetics.

- What EDI says about the Reapers is irrelevant. EDI is as intelligent as any other organic.

- You brokered peace between the Geth and the Quarians. The technological singularity hasn't occured because the Geth are as intelligent as any other organic. The Geth are not a super AI. Do you think the Geth will view organics the same way once the gap in Geth <---> organic intelligence is as large as the gap in human <----> ant intelligence?

- You don't need to "evolve" to "mate" with anything. People "mate" with sex objects all the time. They don't call it "mating" of course. ....unless your definition of "mating" means having babies. And in that case, I don't want to know what rule 34 you were looking at to come to the erroneous conclusion that EDI and Joker can mate.

- The machines in Javik's cycle are not super intelligent.

- Nonesense about synthetic/organics? technological singularity.

Modifié par rumination888, 29 juin 2012 - 08:14 .

[Uncle Jo]

OhoniX wrote...
It makes a change in their life, it does not redefine who they are. It's like if someone loses a limb and has it replaced with a prosthesis, their life is different, sure, but they are not a different person. "green ending" Liara is still Liara. She's still the Shadowbroker, she's still (in my game at least) Shep's ex, she still has the same sorts of thoughts and feelings that she would have had before the synth, she's just got greenish eyes, greenish skin, and a USB port. It's not like the Syth changed their internal identity, it just changed their physical capabilities. I mean, pop your brain out of your body and put it into someone else's, you might be stronger or weaker, you might have to adapt a bit, but you'd still be you.

Now, twenty, fifty years down the line, will people be in a different place than they would be in the other two endings? Probably, but that's true of any choice of consequence, the people in the Control ending are certainly much different after fifty years than those in the Refuse ending.

Synthesis is not about implants or prosthesis. The change is deeper than that. Please understand that transforming a living being on a molecular scale, will inevitably change their mindset and the way they apprehend their own identity, let alone their surrounding or the world they're living in. They've maybe become immortal...They AREN'T the same anymore.
Even more, it was done without their consent, i.e. you don't even know if they were ready for this and how they'll react to it. Not right after the change as the propaganda slideshows depict it, but in the long term...

No. Shep would be responsible for the Synthesis itself, not for how people choose to react to it. The Synthesis doesn't kill people, people kill people.

Dear God... They're going to react to the choice YOU imposed on them. Don't you think that it's at leat partly your responsibility ? Indeed Synthesis doesn't kill people, it just forcibly turns them into [insert your most convenient term].

Well, given that nobody in the Green ending seemed to be freaking out about it, it can't be as unpleasant as you make it out to be. And if they do kill themselves, then that's sad, but it's their choice, and if I hadn't made the choice I did, then maybe they'd be dead, or at the very least millions of other people would be dead, and they didn't have any choice in that. I would rather take the choice that leaves everyone alive to choose whether to move on or not themselves, than one where my choice automatically results in genocide.

Oh yeah, Synthesis was quite the tear-jerking ending. On the other hand, Control seemed to show also happy people and the Reapers helping rebuiding the Relays and all. Nobody was transformed.
TIM and Saren were right after all and Shep just a misguided idealist...Or a presomptuous idiot...
Seriously I don't give a damn about the slideshows. Just because the writers are transhumanism freaks and depicted Synthesis as the happiest and most emotional one, doesn't make them holding the absolute truth.

Synthesis contradicts one of the main theme of ME " find a way to a peaceful coexistence between all the different races, synthetics and organics". Not orgathetics or synthorganics.
That's why you achieved peace between Quarians and the Geth, or cured the Genophage.

I do, that's why I chose the Green ending.

Your statements make me think that you have absolutely no f*cking clue about Synthesis and its consequences...

By the way, your casual use of the term "rape" is highly inappropriate. I doubt any rape victims would agree that the term applies here.

Strawman argument. Answer to the rest of the concerned part.

Yes, all options other than "refuse" lead to the Reapers' defeat within this cycle, my point is that the Green ending is the way of doing so with minimal casualties and without the headache of the Control ending. I would rather be free and wifi-enabled than live under a digital space god.

Minimal casualties ? You've rewrited the whole galaxy without their consent. Space god is still there in Synthesis. It's not even Shepard. Have fun when the Galaxy get overcrowded or when the next conflict arises...

And plenty of futurists. It'll happen. Maybe not in their lifetime, but eventually we'll either reach synthesis of some type or be wiped out.

Prove it. No, you can't. Just because the brat, you and other "futurists" believe it'll happen doesn't make you right about it. There is a difference between a probability and a certainty. Or do you have the ability to read in the future ?

The Catalyst's goal is a bit like a gardener that prunes weeds so that flowers can grow. His goal is not to preserve all life, and he doesn't consider all of Humanity to be of any specific value over any other civilization, he's just mowing the lawn when it gets too high and then allowing it to grow again. He neither allows it to grow completely out of control, nor some he completely ravage the lawn such that no more grass will grow.

Really ? On which criteria he choose to kill someone and "ascend" another then ? Because after what I saw all along the three games he seems to be more a fan of the flamethrower rather than a sniper.
You're right on "mowing the lawn" though. He harvests the advanced civilizations before they could become a threat for the Reapers. That's my take on it.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 30 juin 2012 - 03:18 .

[survivor_686]

In response to OP: Hear, hear, hear.

Don't forget we still have the Reapers in the picture. A race of sentient machine whose repertoire includes deceit and even more deceit. Whose to say that they won't turn on us the moment they have the upper hand (after using us to clean up evidence and move the citadel back to its original home)

[MaleQuariansFTW]

Uncle Jo wrote...

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

 If you don't like Synthesis, don't choose it. 

Cool story bro.

Am I wrong? 

[cellotlix]

OhoniX wrote...



But here's the thing. I would agree with you that if you tell Javik "You either put a round into your head right now, OR I'll convert you into a half-synthetic," he probably would shot himself. Seems in character. However, AFTER the conversion, would the same be true? It's like eating a food that you are wary of, if someone tells me "here, eat this disgusting looking animal bit." I might go "ew, hell no." But maybe if I did eat it, it would turn out to be really tasty, and then, having actually experienced it for myself, I would no longer reject it. Javik was definitely afraid of mechnicals synthesis as an unknown quantity, but that's no reason to believe that he would reject it AFTER having experienced it.

I'm sorry, but what? Re-writing a sentient being on every level down to their genetic code is nothing like making someone eat a piece of food they don't like. Obfuscating comparisons don't exactly help your argument; it just shows you don't understand the magnitude of what you've done through Synthesis.

[Gogzilla]

Context is important.
I saw none, in that argument.

[elitehunter34]

rumination888 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...
snip...

- Reapers were made to preserve civilizations from being destroyed by synthetics, not to protect organics from synthetics.

- What EDI says about the Reapers is irrelevant. EDI is as intelligent as any other organic.

- You brokered peace between the Geth and the Quarians. The technological singularity hasn't occured because the Geth are as intelligent as any other organic. The Geth are not a super AI. Do you think the Geth will view organics the same way once the gap in Geth <---> organic intelligence is as large as the gap in human <----> ant intelligence?

- You don't need to "evolve" to "mate" with anything. People "mate" with sex objects all the time. They don't call it "mating" of course. ....unless your definition of "mating" means having babies. And in that case, I don't want to know what rule 34 you were looking at to come to the erroneous conclusion that EDI and Joker can mate.

- The machines in Javik's cycle are not super intelligent.

- Nonesense about synthetic/organics? technological singularity.

According to the Catalyst, it was created to broker peace between organics and synthetics.  It does this by "harvesting" them and preserving them in Reaper form.  I fail to see the distinction between this and destruction.  They are essentially the same thing.  This is why people call the Catalyst's logic circular because it is essentially destroying organic life to protect it from being destroyed by synthetic life.


Now about the technological singularity, the problem with your argument (your argument being that the geth haven't reached it and if they do that's bad) is that it hinges on the assumption that the technological singularity is something that will happen in Mass Effect and will result in the destruction of organic life.  Are you sure the geth haven't reached the technological singularity?  They already can create advanced technology and have proven themselves to be smarter than organics in some cases.  

That's not even the main problem, though, it's called the Technological Singularity because we don't know what will happen after it occurs.  We don't even know if it is even possible.  It is all speculation.  You are speculating that it's bad when the Mass Effect universe has been trying to tell us that AI's are not evil.

Mass Effect has been a series about trying to solve these grudges that the different species hold towards each other.  An example of this is the eventual disproving that AI's are inherently bad.  The Mass Effect 1 codex and Mass Effect: Revelation mention that organics fear AI.  This was a fear that was supported by the geth's rebellion.  And yet look what happens when you find out the true nature of the geth in the Mass Effect universe.  Their first goal is not about destruction of organics, it's trying to understand them.  They hold no hatred towards them.  EDI also is not hostile towards organics, she only wants to help them and learn from them.  

This is why so many people are so frustrated by the Catalyst and its assumptions, because they run directly contrary to what the rest of the series has been telling us about AI.  So far the past 3 games have shown us that AI can be both good (geth, EDI) and bad (the rogue AI on the Citadel in Mass Effect 1).  They are not either or.  Yet at the 11th hour the game comes and tells us that synthetics and organics can't get along with only mixed evidence in support of that.  Just because the Catalyst is ancient doesn't make it right.  It gives no reason that it's impossible other than him not being able to do it when you can do it by bringing peace between the geth and quarians.  All it's demonstrating is the argument from authority fallacy.  

Modifié par elitehunter34, 29 juin 2012 - 09:20 .

[The Night Mammoth]

rumination888 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...
snip...

- Reapers were made to preserve civilizations from being destroyed by synthetics, not to protect organics from synthetics.

They preserve by destroying them. 

Their goal is to prevent the eradication of all organic life. 

- What EDI says about the Reapers is irrelevant. EDI is as intelligent as any other organic.

Why is it irrelevant? Judge what she says rather than who says it. 

- You brokered peace between the Geth and the Quarians. The technological singularity hasn't occured because the Geth are as intelligent as any other organic. The Geth are not a super AI. Do you think the Geth will view organics the same way once the gap in Geth <---> organic intelligence is as large as the gap in human <----> ant intelligence?

Yes. 

Try and prove otherwise, because it's all speculation when singualrities are involved. 

- Nonesense about synthetic/organics? technological singularity.

Thanks for the context or explanation behind its relevance. 

Oh wait.