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[tyrvas]

Synthesis - is the only means for Casper the Catalyst to survive unharmed from
the options made available to Shepard, the Catalyst real goal is...to stay/be ALIVE.

Any other option removes Casper the Catalyst from the map, except;
Refuse - which allows the Catalyst to continue with his reaper cycles.

Control - Shepard becomes the new Catalyst
Destroy - Goodbye Casper & Reapers (and EDI & the Geth for having/using reaper tech)

[Xeranx]

You know, I see people make the statement of doing something against the will of others plenty of times, but has not one of the people who present this argument thought that decisions are made for people regardless of their wishes every...single...day?

Maybe these same people think the residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki told the US it was fine to drop the atomic bombs we had to stop the war. I mean, we asked for the Japanese army to bomb Pearl Harbor right? I guess us American citizens asked for the Patriot Act, ACTA, SOPA, etc. We asked to be taxed. Men were asked to be drafted into Vietnam. Men are asked to register for selective service.

A lot of what's introduced to ours and any other society is done by a small number of people compared to the larger number the decisions made will affect. The very nature of statistics allows for a small group to take a small sample of a population and make decisions based on that small group for the larger majority.

The idea that someone will make a decision to save the many is not far fetched. It's entirely plausible and possible, and in some cases reasonable to do. Leave the idea of someone else's will out of arguments regarding synthesis because it fails, and fails hard because things often have to be done for the many and those decisions are made by the few.

Instead, focus on the implausibility of actually having a life with synthesis as a decision and look at the problems that could arise there. Regardless of what the developers were suggesting with synthesis, there's still the issue of husks, brutes, cannibals, marauders, and banshees to consider. How do they live, and how will they accept themselves. Look at how that could extend to how others will view them. Just because synthesis merges them together (how, I don't know...probably like Shepard being brought back to life and that costing considerably less than the SR1's engine), doesn't make people forget how they thought. It doesn't allow an overnight change of behavior. There's an acclimation process that everyone has to go through before everything gets normal. The fact that Legion was questioning his state as being alive is a clear example of that. Had he lived, he would still have to adjust.

[Vet223]

movieguyabw wrote...

I thought about doing a playthrough with the idea that Shepard is fully indoctrinated, where he chooses Synthesis at the end... but that's the only possibl way I could imagine Shepard making that choice...  it's the ultimate "Reapers win" ending, for me. 

Dingdingdingdingding!

/thread

"Do not sacrifice everything for the sake of petty freedoms.  ...  Is submission not preferrable to extinction?"

"We organics are driven by emotion instead of logic. ... [...Sovereign is a machine.  It thinks like a machine...] If we work with the reapers, if we make ourselves useful, think how many lives could be spared.  Once I understood this, I joined sovereign.  I was aware of the... dangers.  I... had hoped this facility could protect me."

"The transformation from ally to servant can be subtle."

"If organic life is to survive, we must also prove we are useful.  We must work with the reapers. ... The only hope of survival is to join with them."

"I'm not doing this for myself, don't you see? ... My way is the only way any of us will survive.  I am forging an alliance between us and the reapers.  Between organics and machines.  And in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed."

http://www.youtube.c...v=1-4VkMRrM5E#!

Modifié par Vet223, 29 juin 2012 - 09:55 .

[Uncle Jo]

rumination888 wrote...

*ignored most of my post and sent me again the link to tech singularity*

You've missed the point. I don't give a f*ck about what the brat said. His very presence on the Citadel made Harbinger's and Sovereign's purposes absolutely pointless. It's a complete retconing of ME1 and ME2.

The Reapers were described as each a "nation", "independant" and "free of all weaknesses". They didn't give a damn about organics. Harbinger considered you as "bacteria" and only saw you as potential enhancement/upgrade for his kind. Hence the human proto-reaper. (see what Casey Hudson said about the Reapers reproduction in my previous post), that's why they've turned the Prothean into Collectors, since they couldn't make any Reaper of them. And guess what Collectors are ? Cannon fodder.

And if he really wanted to ascend and preserve the organics into a Reaper form, why does he send them to war ? How many minds were lost when a Destroyer or a Capital ship was taken down ?
Why indoctrinate the Rachni and send them against the Galaxy ? Why mess with the Geth und turning them against the organics ? Why torture, enslave, mutilate, kill trillions of lifes, destroy thousands of worlds ? Because the end justifies the means ? That's his vision of peace between organics and synthetics ?

Now the brat stated that the Reapers are his that he created them, for the sake of preserving the organics being wiped out by the synthetics. That he and his buddies are in fact the good guys...And threatens me with a probable tech singularity that might never happen... Sure, whatever.

I've spent the whole ME2 and ME3 to learn that the synthetics are worth to be given a chance, that peace and cooperation is possible (even if it's not always the case), then comes the space troll and tries to prove me that they're all evil and will eventually try to wipe me out, if they become too intelligent.
They already are and self-aware. And still willing to help rebuild our worlds after the War, as well as they are already helping the Quarians.

Ergo: "Sc**w you space troll and your insane logic".

"What EDI says about the Reapers is irrelevant. EDI is as intelligent as any other organic"

I... don't think so. The volume of data and variables she can analyze and process in a split second would make the brains of any organic instaneously fry... Furthermore she's an AI, so her point of view is quite relevant IMO. She evolved in her comprehension of the organics (to make the things clear).

"The machines in Javik's cycle are not super intelligent"

That's quite a solid argument.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 30 juin 2012 - 01:15 .

[Uncle Jo]

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

 If you don't like Synthesis, don't choose it. 

Cool story bro.

Am I wrong? 

No. But it doesn't make your post constructive.

[Daverid]

What if the whole point of ME1 was to make you think a Synthesis Ideal was wrong, so to mind **** you when it was the "Best" option in ME3? ...

OH WAIT.. Drew had a completely different storyline in plan when he Lead Wrote ME1 .. And the Fans have a better idea of how the Games and the ME universe works then Mac Walters........

Brilliant Read. Presents a LOAD of the Synthesis problems and why it is completely wrong. Especially the part about Javik got me, it's so true.

[rumination888]

elitehunter34 wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...
snip...

- Reapers were made to preserve civilizations from being destroyed by synthetics, not to protect organics from synthetics.

- What EDI says about the Reapers is irrelevant. EDI is as intelligent as any other organic.

- You brokered peace between the Geth and the Quarians. The technological singularity hasn't occured because the Geth are as intelligent as any other organic. The Geth are not a super AI. Do you think the Geth will view organics the same way once the gap in Geth <---> organic intelligence is as large as the gap in human <----> ant intelligence?

- You don't need to "evolve" to "mate" with anything. People "mate" with sex objects all the time. They don't call it "mating" of course. ....unless your definition of "mating" means having babies. And in that case, I don't want to know what rule 34 you were looking at to come to the erroneous conclusion that EDI and Joker can mate.

- The machines in Javik's cycle are not super intelligent.

- Nonesense about synthetic/organics? technological singularity.

According to the Catalyst, it was created to broker peace between organics and synthetics.  It does this by "harvesting" them and preserving them in Reaper form.  I fail to see the distinction between this and destruction.  They are essentially the same thing.  This is why people call the Catalyst's logic circular because it is essentially destroying organic life to protect it from being destroyed by synthetic life.


Now about the technological singularity, the problem with your argument the geth haven't reached it and if they do that's bad is that it hinges on the assumption that the technological singularity is something that will happen in Mass Effect and will result in the destruction of organic life.  Are you sure the geth haven't reached the technological singularity?  They already can create advanced technology and have proven themselves to be smarter than organics in some cases.  

That's not even the main problem, though, it's called the Technological Singularity because we don't know what will happen after it occurs.  We don't even know if it is even possible.  It is all speculation.  You are speculating that it's bad when the Mass Effect universe has been trying to tell us that AI's are not evil.

Mass Effect has been a series about trying to solve these grudges that the different species hold towards each other.  An example of this is the eventual disproving that AI's are inherently bad.  The Mass Effect 1 codex and Mass Effect: Revelation mention that organics fear AI.  This was a fear that was supported by the geth's rebellion.  And yet look what happens when you find out the true nature of the geth in the Mass Effect universe.  Their first goal is not about destruction of organics, it's trying to understand them.  They hold no hatred towards them.  EDI also is not hostile towards organics, she only wants to help them and learn from them.  

This is why so many people are so frustrated by the Catalyst and its assumptions, because they run directly contrary to what the rest of the series has been telling us about AI.  So far the past 3 games have shown us that AI can be both good (geth, EDI) and bad (the rogue AI on the Citadel in Mass Effect 1).  They are not either or.  Yet at the 11th hour the game comes and tells us that synthetics and organics can't get along with only mixed evidence in support of that.  Just because the Catalyst is ancient doesn't make it right.  It gives no reason that it's impossible other than him not being able to do it when you can do it by bringing peace between the geth and quarians.  All it's demonstrating is the argument from authority fallacy.  

You're taking the word destruction too literally. In ME1, Sovereign states "we are your salvation through destruction". Neither "salvation" or "destruction" are meant to be taken literally. Also, mediating a conflict can achieve peace, but it is not the only way to achieve peace. If I killed off everyone on both sides of the war, is peace not also achieved?

----

You're right. Just not in the way you think. One of the fundamental ideas of a tech singularity is that we do not know what will happen once super intelligence is achieved, therefore; events that occur after the singularity cannot be predicted. And so, it is impossible for a writer to portray super intelligence. If the Geth achieved super intelligence, the game would end shortly after. (This is why every single species in fiction thinks and acts like a human. We do not know how to portray anything other than ourselves, or pieces of it, to sell off as an entire species)

Besides, Legion has said that the Geth were progressing towards their own singularity in ME2. They were building a Dyson sphere to network every Geth in existance. The Geth have not achieved super intelligence yet.

And saying tech singularity is mere speculation is like saying the big bang is mere speculation. Thats really, and I mean REALLY downplaying it. The only things that prove tech singularity wrong are theories that show civilization will eventually collapse and technology will regress before the singularity even occurs. Basically, if civilization does not destroy itself(as per the events of ME), then a tech singularity WILL occur.

I dunno what to feel about the whole "organics and synthetics can be made to cooperate with each other" theme throughout ME. Its like watching a devout Christian getting hammered with examples of creationism all their life, and then suddenly someone shoves evolution in their face. What am I supposed to say to that?

Edit:
Y'know, after thinking about it, ME1 never presented you with the idea that you can cooperate with an AI. You take down two rogue VIs, kill Sovereign, and battle the Geth. Maybe my memory is fuzzy, but can anyone remember cooperating with an AI in that game?

Modifié par rumination888, 29 juin 2012 - 11:08 .

[Cyberfrog81]

Mesina2 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Just one thing. If synthesis was the natural form of evolution...
then why doesn't it happen by itself? Why does it have to be forced?

Because whoever wrote Synthesis doesn't understand how evolution works.

Possible. However, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here. Why? You have to look at it from a Reaper POV. They see themselves as the ultimate form of existance. If we all become more like them - what's not to like about that? The Reapers want order. Organic evolution is seen as chaotic. Choosing synthesis sets the galaxy on the desired path, leading to a future ruled by creatures who think like Reapers. Choosing synthesis is only the beginning. The hybrids will still evolve, become more than what they are right after Shepard made the choice (as confirmed by EDI in the epilogue). But the changes are natural no more - they are Reaper-approved. In the end, everyone's practically a Reaper. You will not recognize the galaxy you tried to save.

Making synthesis seem like the best or at least second-best (next to ShepAlive) option? It's a trap!

[Bill Casey]

rumination888 wrote...

In ME1, Sovereign states "we are your salvation through destruction".

That was Harbinger and the Rannoch Reaper...
Sovereign said "You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it" and "I am the Vanguard of your destruction"

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

In the end, everyone's practically a Reaper.

I got that impression when EDI said the Sovereign line about transcending mortality itself into a realm of existence we can't even imagine...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 30 juin 2012 - 01:03 .

[2Shepards]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I still don't see how Synthesis -> eternal harmony. Great, so we're all half robot now. That doesn't stop any new wars from coming. It's not like suddenly everyone has the same views and opinions (and if it is, that makes Synthesis even more creepy).
Also, through the entire ME storyline we learned that Synthetics ARE already alive. Two of our crewmates are a geth (who is EXPLICITELY shown gaining conciousness in ME3) and a robot, who even starts to feel love. And now Shepard goes all "nope, you need my superior space DNA to truly be something"?

It doesn't, in fact it opens the door to a boat load more conflict in future.

[Captain Flowers]

That was actually a really good read. I came up with "eugenics" when I first heard about the synthesis ending myself. Besides, the 3 original choices tend to be more to convince the Star-child of compliance rather than following through with what Shepard promised to do for 3 games: DESTROY the Reapers. The closest choice to doing what he/she said they would do is Destroy, regardless of the personal consequences.

[recentio]

Synthesis is a wolf in sheep's clothing--the most immoral, brainwashed, dystopian ending of them all. Ignoring the massive scientific carnival at play (eg. evolution is not a process that has a final state), what are its social effects?

If you don't ACCEPT that the COMMUNAL HIVE MIND is better than forging social peace while retaining citizen-level individuality then you will be CORRECTED BY FORCE until you SUBMIT to the GREATER GOOD as defined by the ULTIMATE CENTRAL AUTHORITY.

Synthesis = 1984 by Disney

[Dresden867]

I might have been interested in the discussion, I might not. The images made the entire thing wholly unreadable for me.

[elitehunter34]

rumination888 wrote...

----

You're right. Just not in the way you think. One of the fundamental ideas of a tech singularity is that we do not know what will happen once super intelligence is achieved, therefore; events that occur after the singularity cannot be predicted. And so, it is impossible for a writer to portray super intelligence. If the Geth achieved super intelligence, the game would end shortly after. (This is why every single species in fiction thinks and acts like a human. We do not know how to portray anything other than ourselves, or pieces of it, to sell off as an entire species)

Besides, Legion has said that the Geth were progressing towards their own singularity in ME2. They were building a Dyson sphere to network every Geth in existance. The Geth have not achieved super intelligence yet.

And saying tech singularity is mere speculation is like saying the big bang is mere speculation. Thats really, and I mean REALLY downplaying it. The only things that prove tech singularity wrong are theories that show civilization will eventually collapse and technology will regress before the singularity even occurs. Basically, if civilization does not destroy itself(as per the events of ME), then a tech singularity WILL occur.

I dunno what to feel about the whole "organics and synthetics can be made to cooperate with each other" theme throughout ME. Its like watching a devout Christian getting hammered with examples of creationism all their life, and then suddenly someone shoves evolution in their face. What am I supposed to say to that?

Edit:
Y'know, after thinking about it, ME1 never presented you with the idea that you can cooperate with an AI. You take down two rogue VIs, kill Sovereign, and battle the Geth. Maybe my memory is fuzzy, but can anyone remember cooperating with an AI in that game?

The technological singularity can be presented any way the writer wants to be.  That's kind of the point of science fiction, asking what if and then making a story based on those what ifs.  They could make the Technological Singularity result in instant destruction in whoever achieves it.  Or a race that knows its capabilities and refuses to create smarter AIs for the exact same reason some people fear AIs.  You might disagree with the writer, but that doesn't mean they can't do it.

And no, no no, the technological singularity is not even close to as proven as the Big Bang Theory.  They can't even be compared.  One is a hypothetical concept and the other is a scientific theory.  There is and cannot be evidence for the technological singularity because it hasn't happened yet.  You can't have evidence for something that has not happened, you can only speculate on what could happen.  The Big Bang Theory has overwhelming evidence in support of it and is our best supported model of how the universe was created.  You really are comparing apples to oranges here.

I just want to say that I'm not saying the technological singularity is impossible, I think it is actually quite possible, and maybe even our lifetime.  I don't want to derail the thread by arguing about it, especially if we don't actually disagree with each other on that.

I'm not sure how you don't see the evidence for organics and synthetics cooperating in the Mass Effect universe.  EDI helping you and the geth allying with organics is proof that they can coexist peacefully.  Undenyable proof.
The Catalyst's only evidence that they can't is his personal experience in one cycle.  The technological singularity was never mentioned by him, so bringing up that point is meaningless.  If you say it is implied by him, fine, but even if the synthetics in his time reached the technological singularity, it doesn't mean that if the geth do, it will lead to our destruction.  The fact is you, as Shepard, have proof that he is wrong about the inevitable war between synthetics and organics and he only has his word.

[ArchDuck]

Hudathan wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Because whoever wrote Synthesis doesn't understand how evolution works.

Btw, we don't really know how it works neither, that's why it's called a theory. Don't try to use real-world science to try and debunk anything in sci-fi, it assumes that we know everything there is to know about the universe which is absurd.

Did you just write that? I am sure someone has already torn a strip out of you from one side to the other. And I can assure you that you entirely deserve it.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 30 juin 2012 - 04:16 .

[ArchDuck]

Mesina2 wrote...

devSin wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Because whoever wrote Synthesis doesn't understand how evolution works.

They appear to also have issues with the concept of ethics and morality.

The most brilliant part of the extended cut is that it simply makes this option patently ridiculous. It went from monstrously offensive in the original ending to just plain creepy.

It still remained monstrously offensive, only even more with EC.

[Pottumuusi]

Can't really disagree with anything there. Yup, synthesis is pretty much a monstrosity, and the Starchild is pretty much the biggest hypocrite that has ever graced the galaxy and has no idea how biology even works.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

stysiaq wrote...

I'll add my two cents.

Catalyst says, that he attempted to do Synthesis, but the organics were "not ready for it".

Wait for a moment. So you harvested all the advanced species every 50k years and expected them to be "ready" somehow? You thought that maybe these particular cavemen breed will evolve (at least culturally) faster & better than the previous breed?
And if humans, or at least this cycles organics are "ready", why did you start the harvesting? Wouldn't it be better to send a Reaper welcome party, help to build the Crucible, explain the issue and then wait few more millenia for a Synthetic/Organic conflict to prove your point, and THEN Synthesize all life?

I don't trust Catalyst, not one bit. You shouldn't trust anything that glows green, just like in My Little Pony's season 2 finale. He tries to get away with it.

ME3 has now 2 final choices for me, with the Control being the better one. In the end you are morally allowed to sacrifice both the Geth/EDI (because that is a necessary sacrifice to destroy the Reapers forever) or yourself (and I prefer sacrificing an individual).

You don't remove the reapers in control, hell I honestly think control is much scarier than synthesis. At least in synthesis you don't have an immortal god emperor AI capable of wiping out everything in charge. The only option is destoy and that is that.

[JBONE29]

Yeah, I made the same argument.

[MaleQuariansFTW]

Uncle Jo wrote...

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

 If you don't like Synthesis, don't choose it. 

Cool story bro.

Am I wrong? 

No. But it doesn't make your post constructive.

And yours is? 

It's like people who complain about McDonalds. Yes the food is absolute garbage and completely unhealthy, but no one is making them eat it. What's the point of concerning yourself with it? Why get so heated about something that's completely avoidable?

[Pottumuusi]

Hudathan wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Because whoever wrote Synthesis doesn't understand how evolution works.

Btw, we don't really know how it works neither, that's why it's called a theory.
Don't try to use real-world science to try and debunk anything in
sci-fi, it assumes that we know everything there is to know about the
universe which is absurd.

Eww, Jesus ****ing Christ on a bicycle. I think just reading that lowered my IQ by some 20%.

Evolution is a fact, mate. So tough ****, you're just gonna have to live with that.
In fact, fact is exactly what a theory is. What you're thinking about is called a hypothesis, which is a proposed possible explanation.
A hypothesis can be "promoted" into a theory. Theories(e.g, the theory of evolution and the theory of general relativity) posess both explanatory and predictive capability, and they are supported by repeatable experiments and empirical data.

So we totally do understand how evolution by means of natural selection works.

I feel so dirty now I'm gonna go take a shower.

Modifié par Pottumuusi, 30 juin 2012 - 04:46 .

[UniversalCypher]

smh @ this..really?..

the guy who wrote that garbage better not have a computer or a cell phone..which is prolly not the case since hes using tumblr.

im sure most will fail to understand the contradiction of his entire rant, thats caused by him owning a computer and/or a cell phone.

to be blunt, biowares perspective isnt so far from the actual truth.

whats really terrible is someone trying to argue against bio-tech synthesis over a computer.

its laughable..


-UC

[JBONE29]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Because whoever wrote Synthesis doesn't understand how evolution works.

Btw, we don't really know how it works neither, that's why it's called a theory.
Don't try to use real-world science to try and debunk anything in
sci-fi, it assumes that we know everything there is to know about the
universe which is absurd.

Eww, Jesus ****ing Christ on a bicycle. I think just reading that lowered my IQ by some 20%.

Evolution is a fact, mate. So tough ****, you're just gonna have to live with that.
In fact, fact is exactly what a theory is. What you're thinking about is called a hypothesis, which is a proposed possible explanation.
A hypothesis can be "promoted" into a theory. Theories(e.g, the theory of evolution and the theory of general relativity) posess both explanatory and predictive capability, and they are supported by repeatable experiments and empirical data.

So we totally do understand how evolution by means of natural selection works.

I feel so dirty now I'm gonna go take a shower.

Totally this, although evolution is more of a series of facts that point to the theory.

[MaleQuariansFTW]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Eww, Jesus ****ing Christ on a bicycle. 

Just made my night.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Everyone should read this. I agree with all points (except for the ones made in annoying GIF form).