118 réponses à ce sujet

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...
Not all spirits will lie to you at every turn. Demons will.

You are making the same mistake people of Thedas make. There is no inherent difference between spirits and demons. They simply embody different characteristics. If a spirit of Justice could carry out a greater Justice by lieing to you at every turn it would.

MisterJB wrote...
Merril was being fooled and would let the demon out through the Eluvian, intentionally or not.

 

How did you find this out? The majority of the Dalish don't even know what Eluvian means, and certainly none of them know anything about how they work.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 19 juillet 2012 - 09:36 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Fine? Merril is the very opposite of fine. She is a foolish child whose arrogance and naivety destroyed dozen of lives including that of her adoptive mother who was a much better mage and elf than Merril.

Except if you pay attention to everything that happens in-game, Merrill isn't at fault for anything. Marethari is.

She is living proof the Templars are right.. She is a mage that was never on the Circle, she was free and she still found a way to justify using blood magic.

And she says had she buckets of lyrium, that would've sufficed. But hey, the Chantry has a monopoly on lyrium, making it illegal for anyone else to even possess it.

So it was either use blood magic to cleanse something of the taint -- which she succeeded at -- thereby keeping the clan safe from the taint, or let some moral beliefs -- which the Dalish don't universally share on blood magic -- endanger her clan by keeping a tainted shard around, which would attract Darkspawn and taint the Elves.

Yea.. if I have to choose between a belief on blood magic being "teh EVULZ" which would cause my clan to suffer from Darkspawn/the Taint or choosing to use blood magic to cleanse it so that they'll be safe -- even if they despise me for engaging in blood magic -- and other people I interact with will be safe from the Taint/Darkspawn, I'd go with the latter.

Because just tossing the shard away isn't an option. The taint would still spread, Darkspawn would find it, and you'd be back to square one and have a clan with no halla facing some deep ****.

And considering it's the Dalish mantra to study all Elven lore and history, just ignoring it when she found it because of the taint within it -- which doesn't make the Eluvian evil by default -- isn't a choice for them. She wants to improve the plight of her people -- which the Eluvians can do pretty damn well, if repaired fully -- and she's being proactive about it.

I mean hell, by the logic of "She justified blood magic" you can call Morrigan "not fine" because she says some people would label the DR blood magic.

MisterJB wrote...
Merril was being fooled and would let the demon out through the Eluvian, intentionally or not.

The Eluvian was free of the taint, the demon was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a statue, could only be freed by a powerful spell which we know Marethari knew but don't know if Merrill knew, and the Eluvians lead to a place "beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade" -- per Morrigan.

You can take an Abomination's words at face value if you want -- and considering Marethari could only have found out what she tells us by Audacity, I'm hesitant to believe her as well -- but that's a foolish mistake.

Marethari said in both games that she wants nothing to do with the Eluvians -- plural. No research, no dealing with them, nothing.

She views them all as evil, simply because they were tainted. She fails to separate the taint from the Eluvian in terms of danger. 

MisterJB wrote...
Not all spirits will lie to you at every turn. Demons will.

First off, Demons are spirits. All denizens of the Fade are spirits. The benign spirits are called Spirits -- with a capital "S".

You have Chantry sources, Circle Mages, and Dalish/apostate mages telling you this constantly.

Secondly, if Demons lie at every turn, then why do you believe that the Eluvian would've let Audacity out? Because Marethari said so? As I said above, she wanted nothing to do with the Eluvians -- per her own words -- and could only have learned what she told us by Audacity's words.

So if you can't trust a demon's words ever, why are you trusting Audacity's?

And for the record, Merrill knows you can't trust a demon's words ever. The only time she did believe a Demon's words was in Night Terrors, where -- per the lore -- Demons are at their strongest and the ones of Desire and Pride can use mind control.

Outside of the Fade, a Demon's power is greatly diminished if they're not in a Mage's body.

MisterJB wrote...

Anders states in DA2 that, in order to use blood magic, a mage has to look into the eyes of a demon and accept its offer. Maybe a book; like what happened with Connor; could teach a mage how to contact a demon but it would still involve a demonic deal.

Anders also states that you can cut yourself and just stumble upon blood magic. We also have the Orlesian Warden asking the Baroness to teach him/her blood magic, when he/she is still laboring under the assumption that the Baroness is just a blood mage.

She isn't, of course. But the Warden didn't know that when asking to be taught blood magic. That suggests that you can learn from a Mage.

And Jowan learned blood magic from books as well.

Also, Connor didn't learn blood magic. He contacted a demon in his dreams, IIRC, considering the demon still had a presence in the Fade.

MisterJB wrote...

What is wrong is that she consorted with demons to do that. A better solution would have been to find a way of paying for smuggled lyrium.

Merrill's an Elf. Elves can't get decent paying work. Smuggled lyrium costs anywhere between 40-60 sovereigns, minimum.

You tell me how she's supposed to get that kind of cash in a world that's prejudiced against Elves, while keeping a tainted shard from tainting her clan/friends or attracting Darkspawn.

Talk about ridiculous demands.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juillet 2012 - 09:52 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

The dalish should give it more credit.

Anders makes it explicitly clear that demons are broken down into different sins; there is no mention of academic study. It's entirely religious. I don't see why you are claiming that this is an academic observation when it's tied into viewing demons as Children of the Maker who turned their back on their creator.

The Dalish don't have to give credit to Andrastians for breaking up denizens of the Fade into different types of "demons" to fit their religious views.

MisterJB wrote...

I remember Merrill summoning a demon to break the seal on Sundermount when you first meet her.

So we know she conversed with Audacity at least once to learn blood magic. and summoned a demon for a few seconds. That doesn't seem to mean she is "constantly" dealing with demons.

MisterJB wrote...

And had Merrill never listened to Audacity, Marethari never would have been possessed.

Marethari was an adult; her choices were her own. If she chose to become possessed because she made another baseless assumption about the Eluvian, or because she allowed herself to get manipulated by Audacity, the responsibility for her actions falls entirely on her shoulders. It isn't Merrill's fault that Marethari let a demon loose.

MisterJB wrote...

Merrill was being fooled and would let the demon out through the Eluvian, intentionally or not.

If there was any basis of truth in Marethari's assumption, why wait seven years? Why not give her the construction details immediately? Why risk Merrill getting killed or swayed against this idea for nearly a decade? Seems to me that Audacity told Marethari exactly what she wanted to hear, and played her in order to get a mage to release it from its totem.

MisterJB wrote...

I think any solution, harder though it may be, it's infinitelly more preferable to making a deal with a demon.

Considering Audacity is sundered from the Fade and imprisoned, no deal seems to have been struck.

MisterJB wrote...

Audacity was going to use the Eluvian to escape.

And Marethari knew this how, exactly? Another assumption? Or did Audacity tell her exactly what it knew would lead to Marethari setting it free.

MisterJB wrote...

And blood magic can easily corrupt the user, regardless of demons.

Anders also asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by cutting herself. The Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic when he assumes she is simply another mage. The scholars debate if Arlathan elves taught the mages of the Imperium blood magic. In the old days, blood magic was the standard. I don't see any reason to vilify blood magic simply because some abuse it; that doesn't make it inherently evil. And Merrill has demonstrated that she can handle the responsibility of blood magic.

MisterJB wrote...

Not all spirits will lie to you at every turn. Demons will.

For Dalish, they don't hold the Andrastian religious views of spirits and demons, they only see spirits; so Merrill pointing out that all spirits are dangerous means that she views all the denizens of the Fade as being dangerous. It's the reason why she cautions Hawke to be careful if he chooses to deal with a demon.

[MisterJB]

Since some of your points are similar, I chose to not repeat myself and incluse my answer to both in a single post. Hope you do not mind.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders makes it explicitly clear that demons are broken down into different sins; there is no mention of academic study. It's entirely religious. I don't see why you are claiming that this is an academic observation when it's tied into viewing demons as Children of the Maker who turned their back on their creator.

The Dalish don't have to give credit to Andrastians for breaking up denizens of the Fade into different types of "demons" to fit their religious views.[/quote]

Read the various entries on demons in the Codex. Templars and mages study spirits and demons and their behavior and that is how they are able to determine to which category a demon belongs to. They don't simply look at a smouldering pile of lava and think "That must be a Rage Demon".
It's academic and the dalish should give it more credit.

[quote]

So we know she conversed with Audacity at least once to learn blood magic. and summoned a demon for a few seconds. That doesn't seem to mean she is "constantly" dealing with demons.[/quote]
It means she is quite capable of summoning demons in order to overcome obstacles and that her affections are not reserved to Audacity. Who know how many more she summoned?

[quote]
Marethari was an adult; her choices were her own. If she chose to become possessed because she made another baseless assumption about the Eluvian, or because she allowed herself to get manipulated by Audacity, the responsibility for her actions falls entirely on her shoulders. It isn't Merrill's fault that Marethari let a demon loose.[/quote]
It's not baseless to assume that if a demon is trying to help someone, it is because it somehow fits into a plan to escape into the physical world. They are demons, it is what they all want. To taste life.
Had Merril not been manipulated by Audacity, Marethari would not feel forced to make herself its prison. It is Merril's fault.

[quote]
If there was any basis of truth in Marethari's assumption, why wait seven years? Why not give her the construction details immediately? Why risk Merrill getting killed or swayed against this idea for nearly a decade? Seems to me that Audacity told Marethari exactly what she wanted to hear, and played her in order to get a mage to release it from its totem.[/quote]
Who's to say it was an assumption? She is one with the demon now, she may even have acess to its mind and memories. And how would the demon know Marethari can free it but Merril can't?

Even if the demon was manipulating Marethari, had it not managed to manipulate Merril first, Marethari would not have freed it. Thus, it is still Merril's fault for listening to what a demon has to say.

[quote]
Considering Audacity is sundered from the Fade and imprisoned, no deal seems to have been struck.[/quote]
The deal was: blood magic for a meatsuit. It was supposed to be Merril but it ended up being Marethari~.
Like Marethari says, Merril's blood magic had a price, even if she didn't realize it.

[quote]
Anders also asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by cutting herself. The Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic when he assumes she is simply another mage. The scholars debate if Arlathan elves taught the mages of the Imperium blood magic. In the old days, blood magic was the standard. I don't see any reason to vilify blood magic simply because some abuse it; that doesn't make it inherently evil. And Merrill has demonstrated that she can handle the responsibility of blood magic.[/quote]

I did not claim blood magic is innherently evil. Only that it is inherently dangerous, especially if it comes from demons(you make a good point regarding different sources of blood magic). Merril's actions caused the destruction of her entire clan, that is not being responsible.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Except if you pay attention to everything that happens in-game, Merrill isn't at fault for anything. Marethari is.[/quote]
I did pay attention. Merril is to blame.

[quote]
And she says had she buckets of lyrium, that would've sufficed. But hey, the Chantry has a monopoly on lyrium, making it illegal for anyone else to even possess it.[/quote]
Then find a way to buy smuggled lyrium. It may be more difficult but it's also safer. Anything is better than consorting with a demon since there wasn't an immediate need.

[quote] which the Dalish don't universally share on blood magic
[/quote]
Evidently they do since she became a pariah for using blood magic.

[quote] Because just tossing the shard away isn't an option. The taint would still spread, Darkspawn would find it, and you'd be back to square one and have a clan with no halla facing some deep ****.[/quote]
The clan only lost their halla after they were in the Free Marches. Merril could have just left the shard in Ferelden. Problem solved.

[quote]
And considering it's the Dalish mantra to study all Elven lore and history, just ignoring it when she found it because of the taint within it -- which doesn't make the Eluvian evil by default -- isn't a choice for them. She wants to improve the plight of her people -- which the Eluvians can do pretty damn well, if repaired fully -- and she's being proactive about it. [/quote]
I respect Merril's intentions but she made terrible choices. Prime amongst them being consorting with demons.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote... Merril is to blame.

And I say she isn't, based on everything the two games present -- a lot of it I posted above.

MisterJB wrote...

The deal was: blood magic for a meatsuit.

I'm sorry, you're going to have to provide some evidence of where Merrill states this was the deal she made.

Because I can most assuredly say it's never stated by Merrill anywhere in-game, and is simply your assumption that that was the discussion that went down -- as well as Anders' and Marethari's.

And assumptions are not fact. So again, the burden of proof is on you.

And if your proof is what Marethari said in Act 3, then well.... that's not proof. I've already refuted that in the past -- up above being the most recent time -- so it's just not applicable.

And considering Audacity is entirely dependant on a Mage to be in close proximity to him -- which Merrill wasn't, but Marethari was -- and is trapped in a statue, Merrill was safe. Audacity could do nothing unless he subtly manipulated someone in close proximity to him.

Merrill and Marethari could just barely hear him on Sundermount.

MisterJB wrote...

Then find a way to buy smuggled lyrium. It may be more difficult but it's also safer. Anything is better than consorting with a demon since there wasn't an immediate need.

You have a remarkably odd way of defining "safer", made even more odd by not addressing why I said it's not an option.

I've already gone over why buying lyrium isn't an option. Not one that doesn't come with more risks and more hardship then just using blood magic does.

It should be noted that the spell Merrill used to cleanse the shard was her own healing magic, taught to her by Marethari herself -- per DAO.

Merrill was taught healing magic by Marethari that in its unamplified form could combat the taint in Mahariel for 3 days. This, however, was only a temporary solution and one that would diminish in effectiveness.

Merrill used her blood to amplify the power of her healing spell, thus cleansing the shard. And we know through what the game presents that she did in fact succeed.

Evidently they do since she became a pariah for using blood magic.

Because the Sabrae clan is the only Dalish clan out there! Zathrian's clan is just an illusion!

Zathrian was a blood mage. Did his clan oust him or revile him? No. Did they hate him after finding out his part in the curse? No.

Lanaya even suspected he had a part in it, but she still respected and admired him.

Merrill calls blood magic "the old ways", suggesting that the Elves of Arlathan knew blood magic and practiced it -- indeed, some sources claim the Elves of Arlathan taught the Tevinter natives at the time blood magic.

The clan only lost their halla after they were in the Free Marches. Merril could have just left the shard in Ferelden. Problem solved.

And what, it taints innocent civilians who happen to wander in? It attracts more Darkspawn?

Yes, that certainly solves problems.

No wait, it doesn't.

We see in Witch Hunt -- which takes place 2.5 years after DAO's beginning -- that a group of Dalish Elves were tainted by the shards that were left there. If blood magic could cleanse all of those shards, thereby keeping people from being tainted, I say that's worth casting aside any moral beliefs on blood magic's views among Thedosians.

You call Merrill "not fine" because she uses blood magic. Does that mean the Templars are "not fine", given that Gaider has flat out stated the phylacteries are a form of blood magic?

Does that mean Finn is "not fine" because the Scrying ritual can be viewed as blood magic?

Does that mean that Morrigan is "not fine" because the DR is blood magic?

Are the Wardens "not fine" for using blood magic, in both the Joining and against the Darkspawn?

MisterJB wrote...

And how would the demon know Marethari can free it but Merril can't?

She's the Keeper of the clan, with access to magical arts that Merrill might not know about. Hell, let's assume that Marethari didn't know. What's to say the demon didn't tell her what it was? That still says that Merrill didn't know, and Merrill wouldn't have freed him anyway.

Merrill will flat-out tell an aggressive Hawke that she's not going to Sundermount to free the demon. She's going there to just talk with a trapped and substantially weakened demon.

Marethari was subjected to years and years of subtle manipulation by a Demon, playing on her motherly pride and pride as Keeper. Merrill simply wasn't.

It's Marethari's own damn fault, for failing to move the hell away from Sundermount for all those years. She was in charge of the clan's well-being, yet she chose to stay in the worst possible place. There were other forests in the Free Marches -- some near Kirkwall -- that would've been better suited then staying near Sundermount.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juillet 2012 - 11:06 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And I say she isn't, based on everything the two games present -- a lot of it I posted above.

And I disagree with your conjectures. Hence, our debate.

I'm sorry, you're going to have to provide some evidence of where Merrill states this was the deal she made.

Because I can most assuredly say it's never stated by Merrill anywhere in-game, and is simply your assumption that that was the discussion that went down -- as well as Anders'.

And assumptions are not fact.

I believe Merril when she says the demon was very friendly and willing to help. However, a demon does not give something without receiving something else in return. In this case, what it would logically want; and is supported by Marethari's words; is freedom.
Keeping this in mind, it obviously gave Merril blood magic hoping to manipulate her into freeing him. It may be an assumption, but it is a very safe assumption.

The demon teaches Merril blood magic but, in return, it expects her to provide it a way out.

You have a remarkably odd way of defining "safer", made even more odd by not addressing why I said it's not an option.

I've already gone over why buying lyrium isn't an option. Not one that doesn't come with more risks and more hardship then just using blood magic does.

Dealing with smugglers might be less convenient than making deals with demons to learn blood magic but it is significantly safer.

It should be noted that the spell Merrill used to cleanse the shard was her own healing magic, taught to her by Marethari herself -- per DAO.

Merrill was taught healing magic by Marethari that in its unamplified form could combat the taint in Mahariel for 3 days. This, however, was only a temporary solution and one that would diminish in effectiveness.

Merrill used her blood to amplify the power of her healing spell, thus cleansing the shard. And we know through what the game presents that she did in fact succeed.

And caused a chain reaction that culminated in her mother's death and possible slaugther of her clan.

Because the Sabrae clan is the only Dalish clan out there! Zathrian's clan is just an illusion!

Zathrian was a blood mage. Did his clan oust him or revile him? No. Did they do so after finding out his part in the curse? No.

Lanaya even suspected he had a part in it, but she still respected and admired him.

Those dalish only learn about Zathrian's blood magic if he dies in which case it would only be natural to respect his memory. There is nothing that indicates he ever used blood magic in front of them.

Not to mention that the ideals of a Keeper greatly influence those of the clan. If Zathrian never spoke against blood magic, his clans would be more likely to accept as opposed to Marethari who was greatly against it.

And what, it taints innocent civilians who happen to wander in? It attracts more Darkspawn?

Yes, that certainly solves problems.

No wait, it doesn't.

We see in Witch Hunt -- which takes place 2.5 years after DAO's beginning -- that a group of Dalish Elves were tainted by the shards that were left there.

It's not Merril's problem then, is it? Her clan is safe.

You call Merrill "not fine" because she uses blood magic. Does that mean the Templars are "not fine", given that Gaider has flat out stated the phylacteries are a form of blood magic?

Does that mean Finn is "not fine" because the Scrying ritual can be viewed as blood magic?

Does that mean that Morrigan is "not fine" because the DR is blood magic?

Are the Wardens "not fine" for using blood magic, in both the Joining and against the Darkspawn?

Sometime evil is necessary to do good. Phylacteries and Scrying carry a certain danger due to being blood magic but they appear to not have had major negative consequences.
The Dark Ritual is another question alltogether but would you really claim Morrigan is a good example of how mages can be trusted with freedom? (Morrigan is my favorite character, BTW).

I have never denied blood magic can have positive consequences but it is a fact that it is extremely dangerous. Avernus is a good example of how quickly it can go awry.

She's the Keeper of the clan, with access to magical arts that Merrill might not know about. Hell, let's assume that Marethari didn't know. What's to say the demon didn't tell her what it was? That still says that Merrill didn't know, and Merrill wouldn't have freed him anyway.

Merrill will flat-out tell an aggressive Hawke that she's not going to Sundermount to free the demon. She's going there to just talk with a trapped and substantially weakened demon.

It's Marethari's own damn fault, for failing to move the hell away from Sundermount for all those years. She was in charge of the clan's well-being, yet she chose to stay in the worst possible place. There were other forests in the Free Marches -- some near Kirkwall -- that would've been better suited then staying near Sundermount.

And why would Marethari free a demon based solely on its words? It could have easily been lying to get Marethari to free it.
It is obvious to anyone that if the demon taught Merril blood magic, it was because it somehow contributed to its freedom. Marethari could have simply learned the details of how it planned to use the Eluvian to free itself once she was one with it and could acess its tougths and memories.

 Marethari's only crime was placing her daughter above everything else. It's Merril's fault for consorting with demons in the first place.

Marethari was subjected to years and years of subtle manipulation by a Demon, playing on her motherly pride and pride as Keeper. Merrill simply wasn't.

There is no evidence Marethari spoke to the demon more than once. Merril, who was schooled by it and interacted with other demons, is much more likely to have been a victim of manipulation.

[Chiramu]

Or if the Blood Mages are going to be crazy at least make them a sociopath that just wants to kill everyone instead of a mage that is the drooling and dribbling from the side of the mouth crazy.

[TEWR]

Y'know, rereading everything I've just said, I might've made a halfway decent lawyer -- if I didn't have to understand legal-speak and spend a crapton of years in law school.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

I believe Merril when she says the demon was very friendly and willing to help. However, a demon does not give something without receiving something else in return. In this case, what it would logically want; and is supported by Marethari's words; is freedom.[/quote]

In other words, speculation with no facts to support it backed up by more speculation with no facts to support that bit of speculation.

That's hardly admissible as proof. That's conjecture with no real basis, and a lot of it.

[quote]
Keeping this in mind, it obviously gave Merril blood magic hoping to manipulate her into freeing him. It may be an assumption, but it is a very safe assumption. [/quote]

Saying "obviously" denotes that it's the only thing that could've happened, which doesn't lend itself well to discussion.

Even were it true, Merrill didn't fall prey to the demon's machinations. Marethari did.

[quote]
The demon teaches Merril blood magic but, in return, it expects her to provide it a way out.[/quote]

Or taught Merrill blood magic in the hopes that it would affect Marethari, whom he could manipulate further on those grounds.

We have dev statements saying that Demons will prey on those mages who are in a position of power and influence and are powerful in their own right.

Given that -- and remember just who Audacity originally addressed in the Merrill short story -- I think it's safe to say the Demon manipulated and wanted Marethari all this time. And Marethari fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Dealing with smugglers might be less convenient than making deals with demons to learn blood magic but it is significantly safer.
[/quote]

Smugglers would just as soon kill you after you pay them. You're asking her to go to Kirkwall, with no friends to help her, find some means to make money in a city that is highly prejudiced against Elves, and buy lyrium from smugglers who may just as well try to kill her once they get her money.

Let's not forget that the only ways an Elf could make money are by either having some influential connections with the right people... or turning to crime, which would attract the City Guard/Templars on reports of apostate activity.

Yea.... you're not asking her to do something "safer". Your idea carries with it far more risks then just learning blood magic from a Demon and tricking it.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

And caused a chain reaction that culminated in her mother's death and possible slaugther of her clan.

[/quote]

Adults are accountable for their own actions. I am not accountable for yours. You are not accountable for mine. Merrill is not accountable for Marethari's. 

If I drove my car off the highway and died because some guy had his lights on at maximum, am I at fault for being a bad driver? Or is he at fault for blinding me and causing me to get into a wreck?

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Those dalish only learn about Zathrian's blood magic if he dies in which case it would only be natural to respect his memory. There is nothing that indicates he ever used blood magic in front of them.

[/quote]

Natural, maybe. But it's just as natural for some of them to be pissed off at him for subjecting his own clan to a curse he created centuries ago and having to be beaten senseless just to... well... get sense knocked into him.

And also tricking his clan into thinking he was immortal like his ancestors, so far as their beliefs on the matter indicated.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Not to mention that the ideals of a Keeper greatly influence those of the clan. If Zathrian never spoke against blood magic, his clans would be more likely to accept as opposed to Marethari who was greatly against it.
[/quote]

And Marethari spread baseless lies about Merrill which caused the clan to hate her even more -- prompting Pol to run to his death -- and then had the audacity to ask Merrill to return home, thinking that everything would just revert to normal. That the clan wouldn't still hate her or view her with heavy suspicion.

Marethari is, simply put, a ****** worthy of death. She is the prime source of the entire conflict. If Marethari's word is so influential, then why the hell didn't she try and breed more understanding and caring amidst the clan if she wanted her First back, rather then do the complete opposite?

Fear makes men more dangerous then magic ever could -- Merrill

Merrill left for two reasons: 1) Scorn she faced from her clan and her adoptive mother and 2) to have a safe haven. In Kirkwall, she'd be safe.

Tying into all this, she also left to discover who she is, something she'll tell Marethari.

Marethari: The Eluvian is poison! It killed Tamlen! It stole Mahariel! It led you to blood magic! Will you let it twist you further from who you really are?
Merrill: And who am I?

*Side note, that's one of my favorite moments, showcasing philosophical Merrill.

Marethari then proceeds to break the very pact she struck with Merrill. She promised Merrill the Arulin'holm, yet gives it to Hawke. She shows by this very act that she can't honor her word, and I see no reason to trust anything she says.

She told Merrill she'd give the artifact to her, yet that ends up becoming a lie. She lied and broke a spoken -- and much honored -- Dalish pact, and her credibility on all matters gets shot.

Never mind that Marethari thinks Merrill can take on a Varterral that's killed 3 hunters already -- and she doesn't even mention Pol's in the cave -- yet she doesn't believe that Merrill can take on a demon.

The Varterrals were created by the Creators as protectors of the Elves, able to sense friend and foe alike -- which points to them being sentient somewhat -- and if they're free and killing anything they see, how are they more dangerous then a trapped and sundered Demon passing the time by counting the number of skulls in the cave he's in?

I'd say the risk is about equal in that. If Merrill's killed a Varterral -- twice even -- then I think she can handle a trapped demon of Pride, barring no idiots get in her way and **** things up.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

It's not Merril's problem then, is it? Her clan is safe.
[/quote]

Ah so you admit that people are accountable for their own actions! And yet you turn around and say Marethari isn't at fault for choosing of her own volition to become an Abomination, without even telling her clan that's what she wanted to do.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Sometime evil is necessary to do good.[/quote]

And yet you say Merrill is in the wrong, for using something you view as "evil" simply because of one place it can be taught -- demons -- to do something good.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Phylacteries and Scrying carry a certain danger due to being blood magic but they appear to not have had major negative consequences.
[/quote]

Oh? I'd argue that the phylacteries as a subset of the Circle system helped to breed the very fear Mages will have and the very desperation that some Mages will go to, in order to stay away from oppressive Circles.

Not saying they shouldn't be used -- they should be. They're useful -- but I am saying that I don't think they're being properly used.

They're being used to oppress, rather then to protect. For some Circles, anyway.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

The Dark Ritual is another question alltogether but would you really claim Morrigan is a good example of how mages can be trusted with freedom? (Morrigan is my favorite character, BTW).
[/quote]

I would say she's a good example. She's not adverse to using blood magic, won't kill for the lulz, and she knows not to mess with demons -- at least, when she's in the Fade. Outside may be a different matter. She uses her magic to help defeat the Blight and makes it a point to say that the OGB will be raised as a good entity, respectful of where he came from.

She's proven to be a good mage, albeit inexperienced with the world due to her sheltered upbringing -- due in part to both the Chantry controlled Circles and Flemeth's reclusive nature.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

I have never denied blood magic can have positive consequences but it is a fact that it is extremely dangerous. Avernus is a good example of how quickly it can go awry.
[/quote]

Of course it's dangerous. I've never denied that. Avernus is certainly a good case of trying to control demons going wrong.

Merrill's not trying to control demons. She's trying to play them. She's probably well aware that she can't actually control them like Danarius does with the Shades and Rage demons.

Merrill also finds the darker aspects of blood magic to be ghastly throughout the 7 years we know her. Profaning the dead is ghastly to her. Sacrificing people as fodder for spells is ghastly to her.

Blood magic is neither inherently good or inherently evil. It's a tool, dependant on the Mage using it. Jowan's a good blood mage. Merrill's a good blood mage.

Blood magic can be used medicinally, cleanse tainted inanimate objects, prolong the life of tainted individuals, and so on and so forth.

It can be used maliciously as well. But I think that ideally, only the darker aspects should be made illegal. Practically, I'm content with it all remaining illegal unless the Wardens are the ones using it.

Were the Elves to get their own nation and I saw more examples of Elven blood mages, then I could form a better opinion on blood magic as a whole in all nations. As of now, I have two sane blood mage Elves that aren't intentionally malicious.

Well... arguably Zathrian is, though it's also understandably so.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

And why would Marethari free a demon based solely on its words? It could have easily been lying to get Marethari to free it. [/quote]

So you admit that Marethari's belief that the Eluvian would set the demon free was a lie? Progress!

And the demon could've said "I'll only tell you if you'll free me". Marethari is, as I've said, a ****** worthy of death. She isn't the smartest woman out there.

Really, we know these things:

1) Marethari wanted nothing to do with the Eluvians, citing them as evil. This includes research, as she said she wanted nothing to do with repairing it.
2) She freed a Demon with a spell that Merrill didn't know -- as we know, anyway -- but she did.
3) She magically comes up with knowledge about the demon's intent and the Eluvian's purpose, when if she knew this at any point prior she could've made it a point to travel to the city and warn Merrill of what she knew.

We can draw from this a couple of conclusions:

1) that the demon told her this "information" she relays to us. By your own words, Demons always lie. So this information is, in fact, a lie.
2) It was Abomination Marethari speaking, and not Marethari herself. Audacity could've been trying to get under Merrill's skin.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

It is obvious to anyone that if the demon taught Merril blood magic, it was because it somehow contributed to its freedom.[/quote]

Probably because it did that to get to Marethari, who he then proceeded to manipulate subtly because she was his real target -- due to being both influential and powerful in terms of magical potential.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Marethari could have simply learned the details of how it planned to use the Eluvian to free itself once she was one with it and could acess its tougths and memories.

[/quote]

Considering Morrigan had a tome devoted to the Eluvians and says that they lead "beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade", I don't see how the demon could've used it to escape its prison, when Merrill says that it could only be freed by a powerful spell cast on the statue, which indicates that she's done her research -- though we don't know if she knows the particular spell needed.

And you don't think the Demon could've created false information to make Marethari think she was right, and thus be more accepting of her choice?

You don't think that Marethari's thoughts could've merged with the demon's intentions, creating false information?

You don't think that Marethari would be so gullible as to believe what the Demon said to her, if it matched up with what she believed to be the case? The Demon's been proven to create illusions and false realities. No reason it didn't do that to Marethari showing what it "would've done to Merrill".

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

There is no evidence Marethari spoke to the demon more than once[/quote]

1) Merrill short story, where it's repeatedly whispered to them in dreams. That suggests it's capable of doing it again and again, if it's done it repeatedly in the past.
2) Merrill short story, upon confronting it.
3) Merrill's Act 3 quest, where we find that she confronted the Demon.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Marethari's only crime was placing her daughter above everything else.[/quote]

Trust me, she's guilty of a lot more. Slander, negligence, endangering the safety of the people she's in charge of, etc.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Merril, who was schooled by it and interacted with other demons, is much more likely to have been a victim of manipulation.
[/quote]

Considering we have lore that states that Demons seek the most powerful and most influential Mages to possess -- and they're orgasming at the thought of both being in one package -- and Marethari fits both those criteria, then I'd say that Marethari is the more likely candidate to have been the intended target.

And Merrill wasn't schooled by the demon on anything, other then the fundamental basics of blood magic -- "use blood to amplify magic". What Merrill uses blood magic for is entirely her own unique work.

Given that she calls it the "old ways", I'm inclined to believe she's read some bits of lore and text when she was with the clan that helped her understand it. Not enough to understand the basics, but enough that she didn't need to go to the Demon day and night to learn about everything.

As for these "other demons", well let me just say this:

1) The Hunger Demon in the Deep Roads isn't something that she voluntary interacted with. The player chooses to take her into the Deep Roads, where she will tell Hawke that you can trick a demon if you're careful.

2) She studied Elven lore and extrapolated knowledge from it without relying on a Demon after the shard was cleansed to repair the Eluvian. This is WoG by Gaider himself.

3) The Pride Demon in the Fade mind controlled her, just like all demons of Desire and Pride can do when they're in the Fade -- which is when they're at their strongest. Outside of it, their power severely diminishes. This is also lore, per WoG.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juillet 2012 - 01:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Marethari's only crime was loving her daugther too much. She warned Merril of the inherent dangers and evils of demons and blood magic who tought she knew better than her elder. Had Merril heeded Marethari's advice, nothing would have happened. The clan would have simply moved on.

Hah. Assertions without proof. To me, it seems far more likely that Marethari was motivated far less by love for Merrill than by overweening pride and the burning desire to not be proven wrong by an apprentice. Note that of the two, it was not the blood mage who became possessed. Or spread various lies about the other's conduct directly resulting in the death of another one of the clan. Or tried to murder Hawke in a cave after allowing her to go there without any warning of the abomination incident there. Marethari's worse than useless.

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In other words, speculation with no facts to support it backed up by more speculation with no facts to support that bit of speculation.

That's hardly admissible as proof. That's conjecture with no real basis, and a lot of it.

Saying "obviously" denotes that it's the only thing that could've happened, which doesn't lend itself well to discussion.[/quote]
I can say the same about your conjecture the demon was targeting Marethari all along.



[quote]Even were it true, Merrill didn't fall prey to the demon's machinations. Marethari did.[/quote]
Marethari created a situation that would destroy the demon and save her daugther who she sacrificed her life for.

[quote]
We have dev statements saying that Demons will prey on those mages who are in a position of power and influence and are powerful in their own right.

Given that -- and remember just who Audacity originally addressed in the Merrill short story -- I think it's safe to say the Demon manipulated and wanted Marethari all this time. And Marethari fell for it hook, line, and sinker.[/quote]
Conjecture with no real basis.

[quote]
Smugglers would just as soon kill you after you pay them.[/quote]
Smugglers are better than demons who will possess you and use you to kill others.

[quote]You're asking her to go to Kirkwall, with no friends to help her, find some means to make money in a city that is highly prejudiced against Elves, and buy lyrium from smugglers who may just as well try to kill her once they get her money.

Let's not forget that the only ways an Elf could make money are by either having some influential connections with the right people... or turning to crime, which would attract the City Guard/Templars on reports of apostate activity.

Yea.... you're not asking her to do something "safer". Your idea carries with it far more risks then just learning blood magic from a Demon and tricking it.[/quote]
I'm not saying it would be easy. We don't know exactly what would have happened had she tried something else. Maybe she would have failed, maybe she could have convinced Marethari to help if she hadn't turned to blood magic.

We do know, however, what resulted from her consorting with demons. The destruction of her clan.

[quote]

Adults are accountable for their own actions. I am not accountable for yours. You are not accountable for mine. Merrill is not accountable for Marethari's. [/quote]
Can you expect a mother to watch her child die and do nothing to stop it?

[quote]
And Marethari spread baseless lies about Merrill which caused the clan to hate her even more -- prompting Pol to run to his death -- and then had the audacity to ask Merrill to return home, thinking that everything would just revert to normal. That the clan wouldn't still hate her or view her with heavy suspicion.[/quote]
What baseless lies? That Merril is a blood mage? That blood magic is extremely dangerous? That she has consorted with demons and is toying with the mirrors that killed one of their clanmates?
That is not lying, it's being a responsible Keeper



[quote]Marethari is, simply put, a ****** worthy of death. She is the prime source of the entire conflict. If Marethari's word is so influential, then why the hell didn't she try and breed more understanding and caring amidst the clan if she wanted her First back, rather then do the complete opposite?[/quote]
Because her First must first give up blood magic, the prime source of the entire conflict. Treating it as if it is no different from any other magic would be irresponsible.
Maybe facing the scorn of the clan would make Merril recondiser her chosen path and give up on blood magic.



[quote]Fear makes men more dangerous then magic ever could -- Merrill[/quote]
She is wrong.



[quote]Marethari then proceeds to break the very pact she struck with Merrill. She promised Merrill the Arulin'holm, yet gives it to Hawke. She shows by this very act that she can't honor her word, and I see no reason to trust anything she says.[/quote]
What I saw was an elder keeping a gun away from the hands of a child. It increased my respect for Marethari tenfold.

[quote]Never mind that Marethari thinks Merrill can take on a Varterral that's killed 3 hunters already -- and she doesn't even mention Pol's in the cave -- yet she doesn't believe that Merrill can take on a demon.

The Varterrals were created by the Creators as protectors of the Elves, able to sense friend and foe alike -- which points to them being sentient somewhat -- and if they're free and killing anything they see, how are they more dangerous then a trapped and sundered Demon passing the time by counting the number of skulls in the cave he's in?

I'd say the risk is about equal in that. If Merrill's killed a Varterral -- twice even -- then I think she can handle a trapped demon of Pride, barring no idiots get in her way and **** things up.[/quote]
The three Varterrals we encoutered in Witch Hunt and DA2 attacked dalish on sight which should prove they are just animals and those are just dalish stories. An animal is dangerous but predictable, it will come straight at you and try to eat you.
Demons are insidious, they can convince mages to accept and Merril has already shown she is quite susceptible to the arguments of demons. Not only the one trapped in the statue, but also the one encoutered in the Fade and the Deep Roads.

[quote]

Ah so you admit that people are accountable for their own actions! And yet you turn around and say Marethari isn't at fault for choosing of her own volition to become an Abomination, without even telling her clan that's what she wanted to do.[/quote]
I find it hard to blame a mother that chooses to die to save the life of her child.
Personally, I would have just sent dalish to guard the cavern and keep Merril out.

[quote]
And yet you say Merrill is in the wrong, for using something you view as "evil" simply because of one place it can be taught -- demons -- to do something good.[/quote]
Merril is in the wrong because she toyed with knowledge and power that was far beyond her grasp and her entire clan can pay the price for it.

[quote]
Oh? I'd argue that the phylacteries as a subset of the Circle system helped to breed the very fear Mages will have and the very desperation that some Mages will go to, in order to stay away from oppressive Circles.

Not saying they shouldn't be used -- they should be. They're useful -- but I am saying that I don't think they're being properly used.[/quote]
I respectfully disagree.



[quote]
 OGB will be raised as a good entity,[/quote]
Morrigan just says she will raise Urthemiel to respect where he came from. She never said what she intended to do with him.

[quote]
Of course it's dangerous. I've never denied that. Avernus is certainly a good case of trying to control demons going wrong.

Merrill's not trying to control demons. She's trying to play them. She's probably well aware that she can't actually control them like Danarius does with the Shades and Rage demons.[/quote]
And Merril is a good case of trying to play with demons going wrong.



[quote]Merrill also finds the darker aspects of blood magic to be ghastly throughout the 7 years we know her. Profaning the dead is ghastly to her. Sacrificing people as fodder for spells is ghastly to her.[/quote]
That's commendable. But if not for Marethari, that would be exactly her fate.



[quote]Blood magic is neither inherently good or inherently evil. It's a tool, dependant on the Mage using it. Jowan's a good blood mage. Merrill's a good blood mage.[/quote]
No, they are good; but naive on Merril's case and stupid in Jowan's; people who I wouldn't trust with a scissors let alone blood magic.
They might not bleed anyone intentionally but they have both destroyed entire groups of people because of their foolishness.

[quote]
So you admit that Marethari's belief that the Eluvian would set the demon free was a lie?[/quote]
No, what I said was "Why would Marethari trust a demon?"
There are, however, many other ways Marethari could have acquired the knowledge. Researching elven lore on Eluvians, through the demon' mind after possession, etc.



[quote]And the demon could've said "I'll only tell you if you'll free me". Marethari is, as I've said, a ****** worthy of death. She isn't the smartest woman out there.[/quote]
Except she is. She has acess to great knowledge of the arcane as evidenced by how she helps during "Night Terrors" as well as how she quickly realized what it took Merril seven years. That Audacity just wanted to be free, not help the elven people and was clearly luring her into a trap.
Tough, honestly, anyone with any common sense would know this.



[quote]1) Marethari wanted nothing to do with the Eluvians, citing them as evil. This includes research, as she said she wanted nothing to do with repairing it.[/quote]
Merril being in peril could easily change her mind regarding researching into Eluvians.



[quote]2) She freed a Demon with a spell that Merrill didn't know -- as we know, anyway -- but she did.[/quote]
She made herself into its prison knowing full well Hawke and Merril were coming and would kill her.

[quote]3) She magically comes up with knowledge about the demon's intent and the Eluvian's purpose, when if she knew this at any point prior she could've made it a point to travel to the city and warn Merrill of what she knew.
[/quote]
Communion with the demon's mind could make her know its plan on the spot. Or she simply deduced it and wasn't sure and haf she told Merril, she would probrably assume Marethari was lying. Marethari always warned Merril blood magic comes with a price, she didn't listen.


[quote]1) that the demon told her this "information" she relays to us. By your own words, Demons always lie. So this information is, in fact, a lie.[/quote]
Or the other possibilities I mentioned above.



[quote]2) It was Abomination Marethari speaking, and not Marethari herself. Audacity could've been trying to get under Merrill's skin.[/quote]
Audacity attempted to pretend nothing was wrong. It wouldn't tell Merril to kill it.

[quote]
Probably because it did that to get to Marethari, who he then proceeded to manipulate subtly because she was his real target -- due to being both influential and powerful in terms of magical potential.[/quote]
Or to escape through the Eluvian Merril was intent on completing.
Even if Marethari was its target all along, had Merril ignored it and simply walked away, nothing would have happened.

[quote]
Considering Morrigan had a tome devoted to the Eluvians and says that they lead "beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade", I don't see how the demon could've used it to escape its prison, when Merrill says that it could only be freed by a powerful spell cast on the statue, which indicates that she's done her research -- though we don't know if she knows the particular spell needed.[/quote]
Clearly Merril didn't know as much as she tought.

[quote]And you don't think the Demon could've created false information to make Marethari think she was right, and thus be more accepting of her choice?

You don't think that Marethari's thoughts could've merged with the demon's intentions, creating false information?

You don't think that Marethari would be so gullible as to believe what the Demon said to her, if it matched up with what she believed to be the case? The Demon's been proven to create illusions and false realities. No reason it didn't do that to Marethari showing what it "would've done to Merrill".[/quote]
What would be the point? She would already be possessed at that point.

[quote]
1) Merrill short story, where it's repeatedly whispered to them in dreams. That suggests it's capable of doing it again and again, if it's done it repeatedly in the past.
2) Merrill short story, upon confronting it.
3) Merrill's Act 3 quest, where we find that she confronted the Demon.[/quote]
Merril still spoke more to it than Marethari.

[quote]
Considering we have lore that states that Demons seek the most powerful and most influential Mages to possess -- and they're orgasming at the thought of both being in one package -- and Marethari fits both those criteria, then I'd say that Marethari is the more likely candidate to have been the intended target.[/quote]
Speculation that goes against what is stated in the game. Merril ws the target through the Eluvian.

[quote]
3) The Pride Demon in the Fade mind controlled her, just like all demons of Desire and Pride can do when they're in the Fade -- which is when they're at their strongest. Outside of it, their power severely diminishes. This is also lore, per WoG.[/quote]
WoG stated the Demon in the Fade mind controlled her?

Also, you forgot the demon she summoned to open the path in Sundermont.

Modifié par MisterJB, 20 juillet 2012 - 03:24 .

[Dave of Canada]

Just to point out, most smugglers wouldn't backstab a mage unless Templar were involved (and then they'd get in trouble with the Templar). They're not suicidal.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 juillet 2012 - 03:13 .

[TEWR]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
I can say the same about your conjecture the demon was targeting Marethari all along.[/quote]

Mine is at least based on evidence provided, while your conjecture is based on stuff that amounts to people saying "It's the most likely thing, despite not having anything to really support its foundation."






[quote]Marethari created a situation that would destroy the demon and save her daugther who she sacrificed her life for.[/quote]

The Demon was trapped, sundered from the Fade, and couldn't harm anyone unless freed by a powerful spell cast on the prison.

And you're saying that freeing said Demon was the right thing to do?

[quote]
Conjecture with no real basis.[/quote]

Wrong. Word of God has said that Demons are drawn to Mages that are influential and powerful. Marethari is the Keeper, having influence over her clan -- and soon, able to have some influence over the Dalish clans -- and is a powerful Mage in her own right.

I have the basis. If I have to provide it, then so be it. But my conjecture is solid, because I have WoG to support my claim.

[quote]John Epler wrote...

I'd say that Connor was in a position where, while not necessarily powerful magically, he was in such a place in Redcliffe that he provided easy access to the halls of power. The Desire Demon knew this (and that, because of the way mages are usually treated with being carted off to the Circle as quickly as they're discovered, it was a unique opportunity) and took advantage of it.[/quote]

You see? A Demon will foam at the mouth if they have a powerful and influential Mage in their grasp. And you tell me, who had more influence with the clan, along with a whole frickin' city nearby? Marethari or Merrill?

The answer is Marethari, because Marethari stayed on the mountain -- where Audacity could still manipulate her subtly -- whereas Merrill left the mountain and the farther she went, it caused Audacity to lose any potential influence over her. Proximity matters a great deal to him, as the farther up the mountain they went the louder his whispers became.

Marethari was already the Keeper. She was powerful, influential, and highly prideful.

Merrill was at the time only 2 of the 3. Prideful and powerful, and her pride begins to severely diminish during the years in Kirkwall, whereas Marethari's stayed the same (if not grew).

Merrill will tell you that she didn't have many friends in the clan due to a very sheltered upbringing even amongst them. Thus, her influence with them wasn't very big.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Smugglers are better than demons who will possess you and use you to kill others.
[/quote]

Not when those demons are trapped, sundered from the Fade, and can only be freed if a very powerful and specific spell is cast on the prison it's trapped in.

The safer course of action is standing right in front of you, trapped in a demonic Buddha statue.


[quote]MisterJB wrote...

We do know, however, what resulted from her consorting with demons. The destruction of her clan.
[/quote]

Their own fault. They are accountable for their own actions.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Can you expect a mother to watch her child die and do nothing to stop it?
[/quote]

Merrill wasn't dying. It's not like her diaphragm was being crushed by a pair of oxen and Marethari summoned the strength to lift them, at the cost of her own life.

Merrill was safe -- with people she could rely on -- and Marethari decided to endanger her daughter, herself, her clan, and potentially Kirkwall without even notifying anyone of her intentions.

What would you say if Merrill and company died because Marethari went Abomination? Whose fault would that be then? Would you still defend Marethari, saying "she did the right thing, what a loving mother would do"?

Or would you recognize that her actions were potentially damning for a great deal many people then Marethari thought?

Because if the latter, then you have to acknowledge that it's the same thing when Merrill and company killed her. If the former, then that's just foolish.


[quote]
What baseless lies? That Merril is a blood mage? That blood magic is extremely dangerous? That she has consorted with demons and is toying with the mirrors that killed one of their clanmates?[/quote]

That she'd bring back the taint, which Merrill tells her that they've gone over it before -- never mind that Merrill used her own healing magic amplified by blood to cleanse the shard, which as I've said before that type of magic could combat the taint in its unamplified form.

That lie -- "She'll bring back the taint and doom us all!" -- caused the clan to view Merrill as a monster. They hated her even more, wanted her gone from their life, and did stupid things because of that fear.

Never mind even more that if Merrill was tainted, returning to the clan wouldn't be all happy sunshines and rainbows like Marethari wants to believe. Merrill would be tainted, turn into a broodmother, or seek out the Darkspawn, or they'd seek her, and the clan would still hate her.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Because her First must first give up blood magic, the prime source of the entire conflict. Treating it as if it is no different from any other magic would be irresponsible.[/quote]

You can tell them to hate blood magic without telling them to hate the Mage, which is exactly what Marethari bred into the clan. She made them hate both the blood magic and the Mage, and then deluded herself into thinking things would be perfect if Merrill returned home.

Things are never that simple.

Making the clan hate her is only going to prove that she won't get any support from them and only further drive a wedge between her and the clan. There's a reason why the Rivalry path makes Merrill feel like she can trust no one but herself. It's because no one supports her on anything, calling her a monster or wrong or deserving of death.

Or all of the above.

If they supported her quest to repair the Eluvian, but asked her to at least stop the blood magic because they wanted to be safe then sorry, that'd be one thing. If they had separated the danger of the taint from the Eluvian in their minds, that'd help Merrill see that the clan might help her.

They'd be understanding on the Eluvian aspect -- even if a bit wary due to their past experiences with it -- but wary on the blood magic one.

That would help Merrill go back to the clan.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
That is not lying, it's being a responsible Keeper[/quote]

Pfft.... as if.


[quote]MisterJB wrote...

She is wrong.[/quote]

You're wrong.

Fear of magic drives villagers to blame Mage children for a bad crop, or a dead child, or drought and kill them.

Fear of Mages and Magic -- along with petty hatred -- drove an unjust Annulment to be called on the Kirkwall Circle.

Fear of the Qunari drove fanatical zealots to kick the dragon repeatedly until he bit back.

Fear IS dangerous.





[quote]What I saw was an elder keeping a gun away from the hands of a child. It increased my respect for Marethari tenfold.[/quote]

Merrill's an adult. She's 21-28 years old when we first meet her -- I can't remember how old specifically, but it was told to me that she was in fact an adult in her 20s.


[quote]MisterJB wrote...

The three Varterrals we encoutered in Witch Hunt and DA2 attacked dalish on sight which should prove they are just animals and those are just dalish stories[/quote]

You see, this is conjecture with a solid foundation. I disagree with it, but it's conjecture with a basis.

And it's two Varterrals. So long as the Varterral has something to protect, duty will bring it back to life. Merrill tells us this -- and do you really think two different Varterrals would be in the same area? That'd just be silly.






[quote]Demons are insidious, they can convince mages to accept and Merril has already shown she is quite susceptible to the arguments of demons. Not only the one trapped in the statue, but also the one encoutered in the Fade and the Deep Roads.[/quote]

*Sigh*

Replay the game. Merrill does not accept the deal with the Deep Roads Demon. She tells Hawke that if you're careful, you can trick it. She tells Hawke that Demons don't always keep their word.

That's not saying "I accept your terms Demon. Don't know about Hawke, but I do". That's advice to Hawke on what can and can't be done, and Hawke is to make of it what he/she will.

And for the last time, Night Terrors mind controlled the companions into doing things they wouldn't have otherwise done. Aveline says this, Isabela says this, Merrill says this, Varric says this, etc.

Review the lore. Desire Demons are known to employ mind control. Given that Merrill will state that the Pride Demon controlled her mind despite her fighting against it -- as does Varric IIRC -- we know Pride Demons can do the same, when they're in the Fade.


Outside of the Fade, their power is greatly diminished.

[quote] John Epler wrote...

To be fair, it's the Fade. When you go to the Fade, you're going into the very realm where demons are most powerful. This is their home turf, it's a place shaped by thoughts and emotion, and this makes demons especially dangerous there. Yes, they can still influence your mind in the real world, but their powers are greatly diminished.[/quote]

[quote]

I find it hard to blame a mother that chooses to die to save the life of her child.[/quote]

When the child's life isn't threatened, then I will blame the mother for being an idiot that brought about the possible death of her child.

Marethari in the short story is the one that said it was trapped in the statue and sundered from the Fade -- something Merrill echoes to the party in Act 3 -- and then she goes around and frees it.

Smart move, Marethari. You're really deserving of an award for such intelligence! [/sarcasm]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Personally, I would have just sent dalish to guard the cavern and keep Merril out.[/quote]

You see, that would've been a smart thing for Marethari to do, where she's doing the motherly thing and the safer thing.

Because I can tell you right now that Merrill would not have fought her clan to get in there, as that would defeat the whole point of her mission. To repair the Eluvian to save them.

Merrill knows the Eluvians were used for long range communication between other Elves in Thedas. If she could get it working, then she could create more and more and hand them out to the clans at the next Arlathvhen. Then any clan could contact another easily, provided certain conditions are met.


[quote]
I respectfully disagree.[/quote]

On what? That they're not being properly used? If you're using them to bring a Mage back to a Tower he finds oppressive because of what they face day in and day out, then yes they are being used wrong.

If you use them to bring a Mage back to a place where you preach that his/her magic is a sin, a blight on the Maker's name and the Maker's branding of their soul, that all people will hate them for their magic, then yes it is being used wrong.

If you use it to bring a Mage back to the very place you first brought him to by ripping him away from his family and dragging him to it in chains as if he were a criminal, then yes it is being used wrong.

And all of these have happened. In Kirkwall, in Ferelden, and elsewhere.

Not everywhere, but they have happened. I'm not saying they shouldn't be used. I'm saying they're not used properly.



[quote]
Morrigan just says she will raise Urthemiel to respect where he came from. She never said what she intended to do with him.[/quote]

I believe you can ask her if it will be evil and she says it won't be.

Intentions for the OGB doesn't mean she's going to raise it to be evil. She can raise it to be a good little dragon baby while having underlying motivations for doing so.

Though she doesn't seem like she's going to do anything malicious with it.


[quote]MisterJB wrote...
And Merril is a good case of trying to play with demons going wrong.[/quote]

I disagree.





[quote]That's commendable. But if not for Marethari, that would be exactly her fate.[/quote]

Profaning the dead? Don't see Merrill doing that, given how she calls it ghastly.

Sacrificing people as fodder for spells? Don't see that either, given that she's shown no inclination to do so but every inclination to abstain from it.

Unless you're going to say she's going to suffer a radical personality shift from good blood mage to FOR THE EVULZ!!!

In which case... no.



[quote]MisterJB wrote...

No, they are good; but naive on Merril's case and stupid in Jowan's; people who I wouldn't trust with a scissors let alone blood magic.
They might not bleed anyone intentionally but they have both destroyed entire groups of people because of their foolishness.[/quote]

Jowan's "destruction" didn't stem from foolishness. It stemmed from an earnest belief that Eamon was a threat to Ferelden because the man telling him such a thing -- Teyrn Loghain -- was an honored hero made into a symbol of Fereldan ideals.

There was, at that point, no reason to not believe him.

And Merrill is not naive. Not on matters of the arcane, or the philosophical, or even entirely on human culture -- though she's also not entirely knowledgable on human culture either.

Flemeth herself called her intelligent. And you can't argue with Flemeth.


[quote]MisterJB wrote...
No, what I said was "Why would Marethari trust a demon?"[/quote]

And then you went on to say....

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

It could have easily been lying to get Marethari to free it.
[/quote]

So... yea... you admitted that what it told her could have been a lie. But then you state further down the page that Marethari couldn't possibly have been wrong.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
There are, however, many other ways Marethari could have acquired the knowledge. Researching elven lore on Eluvians,[/quote]

Gonna be hard to do that when Marethari said she wanted nothing to do with the Eluvians -- including doing research!

I mean, if she's going to research it, why not go tell Merrill but say if they find out something bad's up with the Eluvian, they're going to abandon it immediately?

Why not give Merrill some hesitant support, but support nonetheless? Together they could do what alone they could not -- meaning the two of them could come up with a safe means of fixing the mirror's problems, if there were any real problems with working on it. Which there weren't.






[quote]Except she is. She has acess to great knowledge of the arcane as evidenced by how she helps during "Night Terrors"[/quote]

And Merrill had what scraps of lore she could find on the Eluvians in particular, from which she extrapolated from them and built a near-perfect -- albeit dormant -- Eluvian from scratch.

No demons helped her with that after she cleansed the shard. That was entirely her own doing. This is WoG by Gaider himself.

And Merrill also had tons of books in her house. Or did you fail to see those bookshelves? Do you think they're all books on fluffy bunnies? 

[quote]
as well as how she quickly realized what it took Merril seven years. That Audacity just wanted to be free, not help the elven people and was clearly luring her into a trap.[/quote]

Of course its intentions weren't altruistic. No one's said otherwise! Not even Merrill herself. She said she could play it, not that she trusted it. She says "All spirits are dangerous" to Anders.

And no, it wasn't luring Merrill into a trap. You seem to be deliberately ignoring how Morrigan, the person that had an entire tome devoted to the Eluvians and researched them, says that they go "beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade", as well as felt confident in sending a 1-2 year old and untrained child across it.

And Marethari's the one that said in the short story that the demon was trapped and wouldn't harm anyone, because it was sundered from the Fade!





[quote]Merril being in peril could easily change her mind regarding researching into Eluvians.[/quote]

And she couldn't go to Merrill and say "Fine, we'll study the Eluvians" to Merrill? She's obviously willing to go to Kirkwall for Elves she doesn't really know -- Arianni -- but she won't go to help her own adoptive child and tell her that if something bad is discovered about their past that isn't the Taint once within it, they should put it aside?

Really, you're operating off of some flimsy logic now.





[quote]She made herself into its prison knowing full well Hawke and Merril were coming and would kill her.[/quote]

So she knows Merrill can handle the Demon when it's trapped in a prison... after releasing it from it's prison?

Interesting logic there.

And no, she can't know that they'll succeed. Not when they haven't had time to prepare and they're up against a Pride Abomination.

What if they failed? What then?




[quote]Communion with the demon's mind could make her know its plan on the spot.[/quote]

Is there any evidence of people who have merged with Demons -- and I mean demons specifically. Not Spirits possibly warped into demons -- and retained control saying they knew said demon's thoughts? 






[quote]Or she simply deduced it and wasn't sure and haf she told Merril, she would probrably assume Marethari was lying. Marethari always warned Merril blood magic comes with a price, she didn't listen.[/quote]

Marethari's warnings were "The Eluvians are evil! You must stop!" without delving into specifics that had nothing to do with the Taint within it -- since that's been taken care of.

Had she gone into specifics as early as Act 1, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But she didn't, and thus I don't. Specifics matter if you're telling someone what to do and what not to do, on matters that are far more complex then something like "Don't stick your hand in a fire".






[quote]Audacity attempted to pretend nothing was wrong. It wouldn't tell Merril to kill it.[/quote]It would if it's banking on Merrill being unable to do so. And then come later on...

....it was beaten to a point of near death. It could've changed its game plan at that moment, trying to play on Merrill's remaining pride to give it a boost -- and witty Hawke's lines apparently always boosted Audacity's power -- of strength to beat the people who nearly killed it.


[quote]
Or to escape through the Eluvian Merril was intent on completing.[/quote]

Except we have evidence the Eluvians wouldn't have done that. Evidence you've seen fit to ignore, because it doesn't support your belief that Marethari was right and is the bastion of all lore on the Eluvians.


[quote]
Even if Marethari was its target all along, had Merril ignored it and simply walked away, nothing would have happened.[/quote]

True, had she not gone back to Sundermount nothing would've happened. But it was a last ditch attempt, because she had exhausted all existing lore on the Eluvian within her hands.

I can understand that, as she couldn't have expected her mentor to be so manipulated by the demon to have gone and freed it. The Demon was manageable to anyone not stupid enough to free it by way of the only means to do so -- a powerful spell cast on the prison.

Though one should note that you can neglect to tell Marethari of your intentions, and she still ends up possessed. So either that old crone is lightning fast or she was already possessed by Act 3 -- supported by Merrill's statement that the Demon wasn't responding to her attempts to re-converse with it, after having only conversed with it 2 times in the past.


[quote]
Clearly Merril didn't know as much as she tought.[/quote]

On the prison of the Demon? She knew exactly everything about it. And you conveniently ignored my comments about Morrigan and her research on the Eluvians.

[quote]
Merril still spoke more to it than Marethari.[/quote]

I...

Jesus Christ, now you're just making up crap dude.

Merrill has only met with the demon a total of three times and talked to it twice. It did the majority of the talking.

From the Merrill short story:

[quote]"Yes, Keeper. The voice is much louder here." The whisper tugs at the edge of my thoughts, and I can make it out if I concentrate. In the camp, I could only hear it in my dreams, and the words were lost upon waking. Only a memory of terrible loneliness remained. Even the Keeper woke sobbing the second night...
 
...

"Your name!" I have never seen the Keeper this angry. Not even when Tamlen disappeared.

Three seems to be the magic number. Audacity. The voice is like a winter wind, bitter and ragged.

"A demon." The Keeper spits the word as if it tastes foul. She nods at me, "Bound to the statue. It will not threaten the camp." She turns to leave, satisfied.[/quote]


[quote]
Speculation that goes against what is stated in the game. Merril ws the target through the Eluvian.[/quote]

And Marethari couldn't possibly be wrong! She's so perfect that every little thing she utters is the absolute truth of the matter!

Bah, you're credibility is getting lower, messere.



[quote]
WoG stated the Demon in the Fade mind controlled her?[/quote]

Yes. That demons of the more powerful in the hierarchy can mind control in the Fade, and all of the companions say they were mind controlled by the Demons. Merrill, Isabela, Aveline, Varric, etc.

Merrill will tell you that she knew not to believe, but for some reason -- reasons she doesn't know -- she was compelled to.

A codex on demons will say that Desire demons are known for employing mind control. By logical deduction, we can assume Pride Demons can as well since they're more powerful then Desire, not less.

[quote]
Also, you forgot the demon she summoned to open the path in Sundermont.[/quote]

There doesn't really seem to be much of a lore basis for that one. I think that was breaking the lore. Using blood magic doesn't automatically invoke a denizen of the Fade to be summoned. There's a particular spell for that, and it requires tearing the Veil a great deal -- though considering how thin Sundermount's Veil is... maybe not so much a lore break.

Though I'm curious how the hell that barrier was erected in the first place. It's never told to us who put it there. And why would it be put there, barring access to the altar needed to honor the deal with Flemeth? Why not somewhere higher up the path leading to the cave, but away from the altar?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juillet 2012 - 05:38 .

[Xilizhra]

Merrill hatred is a rather fascinating fount of victim-blaming, especially when it involves taking the word of a murderous abomination that's clearly capable of imitating its body's mannerisms and voice. Among other things, which TEWR covered already.

[Wrathion]

Xilizhra wrote...

Merrill hatred is a rather fascinating fount of victim-blaming, especially when it involves taking the word of a murderous abomination that's clearly capable of imitating its body's mannerisms and voice. Among other things, which TEWR covered already.

Add Fenris hate onto that. 

[Dave of Canada]

Epler isn't WOG.

[Xilizhra]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Merrill hatred is a rather fascinating fount of victim-blaming, especially when it involves taking the word of a murderous abomination that's clearly capable of imitating its body's mannerisms and voice. Among other things, which TEWR covered already.

Add Fenris hate onto that. 

For the record, I don't hate Fenris. He has better reasons for his prejudice than any templar I know of, and is also able to get past them better than most templars. I consider him to be largely wrong about most things, but it's understandable given circumstances, and I still respect him.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Epler isn't WOG.

His words were never said to be wrong by other devs, so I consider it such. And Gaider's said much the same thing in interviews as well. 

I'll dig them up right now.

[Wrathion]

Xilizhra wrote...

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Merrill hatred is a rather fascinating fount of victim-blaming, especially when it involves taking the word of a murderous abomination that's clearly capable of imitating its body's mannerisms and voice. Among other things, which TEWR covered already.

Add Fenris hate onto that. 

For the record, I don't hate Fenris. He has better reasons for his prejudice than any templar I know of, and is also able to get past them better than most templars. I consider him to be largely wrong about most things, but it's understandable given circumstances, and I still respect him.

Oh, I understand. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you. 

[TEWR]

So far, the quote I've found from Gaider has said that a determined Demon can control people in the Fade, if their willpower to resist in the Fade isn't at its strongest -- which isn't saying that they're always weak, just that they might've been caught off guard at that moment.

David Gaider wrote...

They have to agree, but agree doesn't necessarily mean a conscious "Yes, please, please come in my body and turn me into a twisted abomination."

To say that a mage must agree is both true and false in the sense that a lot of it relates to the will of the mage and their strength to resist a very determined demon

Also, the codex I mentioned earlier about mind control being done by Desire Demons in the Fade is here:

Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons:

Demons of desire are amongst the most powerful, and are the ones most likely to seek out the living and actively trick them into a deal. These demons will exploit anything that can be coveted—wealth, power, lust—and they will always end up getting far more than they give. A desire demon's province is that of illusions and mind control.

--From The Maker's First Children, by Bader, Senior Enchanter of Ostwick, 8:12 Blessed.

Codex Entry: Desire Demon

They are manipulated by illusions and deceit if not outright mind control, although these demons are reluctant to resort to such crude measures. Instead, they seem to take great pleasure in corruption. The greater the deceit, the greater their victory.

Only demons of pride prove more fearsome opponents when roused. Their abilities to affect the mind allow them to assume disguises and even alter the environment to their purposes, not to mention the great strength and speed they possess if they should have to resort to more physical means.

The only time a Demon of Desire was able to mind control someone outside of the Fade was during Broken Circle, and that came with the cost of binding its own life to the Templar's, without possessing him.

It should also be known that Allure was able to subtly manipulate the entire Harimann family's desires -- as well as somehow make Lady Harimann a Mage despite her being a non-Mage -- when she was near them for years. So that's further evidence to show that demons of Pride and Desire can subtly manipulate people near them.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juillet 2012 - 06:25 .

[Shadowvalker]

Merrill is right!

Demons ARE a part of the realm - Demons ARE the "enemy" - to ignore their presence and their abilities would be utterly insane!

You HAVE to understand your enemy - their weapons - what they do and how they work if you are ever to have any chance to defeat them! Basic military knowledge!

We all do it irl - if you incounter a stranger in your home - YOU assess his abilities in order to eliminate the threat in front of you. Either by peaceful means or by force!

That the Templars abhor any mage that dabbles in blod magic is to me - stupid! Not knowing the capabilities of an enemy that you are suppose to fight - well we'll see how that one playes out....

Another thought:
How did The Litany of Adralla came to be? By STUDYING blood magic! And that was done in cooperation with the the templars!

[dragonflight288]

This is a fascinating debate here. I'm half tempted to dig up some post I wrote in the past that explained my thought processes dealing with elves in DA2 on my very first playthrough, no subconscious meta-gaming involved. I'll be right back with that bit.

[dragonflight288]

Found it. Be warned, a wall of text is coming up. I'll italicize the parts I wrote in the past...so all of it.


When I play as a Dalish warden or talk to the Dalish as an outsider, I see the dalish having a threefold mission.

The first is the restoration of Arlathan and everything associated with it. This means the revival of the language, the culture, the gods, the knowledge, and the technology. So that means magical knowledge, like the eluvians, blood magic, arcane warriors, in addition to the technology a crafter can supply his people.

The second is to restore their homeland. Which means finding a land to call home. Set up their findings, each clan learning all they can from the others as one clan may find information another lacks.

The third is teaching the lost ones...the city elves, the old ways.

Essentially they want to rebuild their empire and unite the elves.

Now moving on to Merrill, Merethari, and the dalish elves near Kirkwall. They had just escaped the blight and are camping dangerously close to Kirkwall and its templars. The clan knows that the Keeper has a debt to pay to Ashbelennar (Flemeth) so they expect to stay there for Hawke to show up. Only they were expecting an elf, as the watch outright admits.

While they are there, Merrill and Merethari encounter a demon sealed within a statue. Merethari refuses to even listen to it, while Merrill is more open. Both are knowledgeable about the Fade and the dangers of consorting with demons. Merrill is also holding a piece of the eluvian, likely stashed safely away because of the corruption from the darkspawn.

She learns blood magic from the demon and how to purify the tainted shard. The fact that she stays in close proximity to the shard for over a decade without becoming tainted, or tainting anyone around her is proof that she succeeded.

Merrill uses her blood magic very carefully, only believing in herself when dealing with demons, taking their knowledge as they offer it, but not their deals.

Merethari fears the darkspawn taint, having lost two hunters to the eluvian before it was potentially destroyed by Duncan. She is also afraid of blood magic and what it may lead Merrill too.

So the first time that Hawke meets the Dalish, only a few are suspicious of Merrill, but some, like the crafter mourn her leaving. Merethari even tells Merrill it's not too late to reconsider her path.

On my first playthrough, I'm just wearing a blank look with question marks in my eyes. So I decide to see what's happening as the game progresses.

We come to act 2, and I see the city-born Pol running from Merrill, even more terrified of her than he is of the Varterral. I am absolutely shocked by that happening.

When we get back to camp, Merethari admits she told the clan that Merrill could bring back the taint and that she was a blood mage...then had the audacity to ask her to return. I literally face-palmed at that.

Pol was city-born, and when he greets Hawke, he's all "Praise Andras....the CREATORS!" leading me to believe he was still a believer in the chantry, but didn't want to return to the alienage. So his views are colored by andrastian beliefs regarding blood magic.

But the very moment he ran to his death rather than be rescued by Merrill, I felt it was too late for Merrill to return to the clan, as they all now hated her guts and distrusted her, based entirely on Merethari's opinion, which has no evidence supporting it.

For one thing, Merrill does not control anyone's mind throughout the game, she does not get the taint, or infect anyone else with it. And in Witch Hunt, elves who had gone into that ruin with the eluvian were corrupted by the taint, so we prove that Merrill succeeded in purifying it.

We also have a clear distinction concerning their differing opinions on the eluvian. Merrill is constantly researching a scrap of lore, using a single shard, and is in the process of rebuilding an eluvian from scratch. Merethari believes that such knowledge belongs to another time and should be left well enough alone. She doesn't even want to touch the lore saying it is far too dangerous. She even tries to renege on her deal with Merrill.

Merrill asks for the tool in Act 2, and Merethari says she'll give it to her in exchange for defeating the Varterral. Well, we defeat the varterral but she gives the tool to Hawke and asks he/she NOT give it to Merrill. She broke her deal, and an important dalish rite invoked by Merrill.

In Act 3, the Dalish are pretty fed up with Kirkwall. They want to leave, but have no Halla. They are fed up with Merethari who is keeping them there as she is constantly asking Merrill to return. And because Merrill is a blood mage and may bring back the taint, she becomes an easy target for their hatred and malcontent, to the point that they refuse to even listen to an opinion that isn't theirs.

Granted, the dalish generally do that regardless of Merrill, and the Chantry...and every other culture. Getting off track.

Merrill, knowledgeable about the eluvians, having done a butt load of research and hard work into rebuilding the mirror, is at a dead end. She doesn't know enough to complete it. She recognizes the demon does. She asks Hawke to accompany her up...and should the worst come to pass, kill her.

Up to this point, I have a pretty clear idea of what's going on. Merrill is discovering the lost knowledge, she is trying to rebuild a very large part of the Dalish heritage (and even if they only manage the long distance communication, that would benefit all the clans and the people as a whole). She invoked the rite to obtain a tool, and honored her end of the bargain.

Merethari on the other hand, was doing nothing to help the clan leave. She stuck around asking Merrill to return to a clan that hated her...courtesy of Merethari warning them of blood magic and the taint. She tried to break the deal with Merrill, and she didn't research or even look into any lore on eluvians.

What it came down to for me was simple. Merrill is a world authority of Eluvians, possibly only Morrigan surpassing her in knowledge for getting one started. She is working at a goal to benefit her people worldwide, she is restoring a part of their heritage. Merrill was following the mission of the Dalish.

Merethari was thinking too much like a mother and less a keeper. I don't doubt she cared for Merrill, but I doubt her (un)common sense. She and the Dalish had an opinion, and no amount of evidence would change it.

And since I didn't warn Merethari that Merrill was planning on dealing with the demon, that means that Merethari had become an abomination BEFORE we showed up at the camp. Which means that she believed so much that her way was the right way that she put her entire clan at risk because she couldn't even consider she was wrong about the eluvian.

Merrill says when we first meet her than when a Keeper becomes an abomination, it is the clan's duty to kill him or her.

We show up at the cave, and Merethari reveals herself as an abomination. She says the demon planned to escape from the eluvian and Merrill would be the first victim, so she (Merethari) willingly paid the price she feared Merrill would pay.

Again, I facepalmed. Someone who has steadfastly avoided dealing with demons, wouldn't listen to what they say, didn't do ANY research at all eluvians, she seemed to assume a lot. And she was so self-righteous that she wouldn't even consider that Merrill could be correct...and she practically abandoned her duty as a Keeper because of Merrill.

So we have to kill Merethari, and therein any chance of completing the Eluvian because a leader without any facts but a very strong opinion felt her way was the best way.

After we leave the cave, we are confronted by the dalish elves. They didn't know that Merethari was an abomination, so that shows me that Merethari thought it fit to warn them about Merrill but not about herself. And when we tell them that Merethari was an abomination, they, having spent a decade blaming Merrill for them staying there, Pol's death, fearing her because she was a blood mage and could potentially bring back the darkspawn taint.

And having spent so long blaming Merrill, they won't even consider that Merethari made her own choices, that Merrill did the duty of the clan by killing an abomination. All they see is Merrill driving Merethari to desperation...despite the fact that Merrill left the clan roughly a decade earlier and no longer had any claim to them.

They are angry, prejudiced against Hawke as a shemlen, prejudiced against Merrill as a blood mage, afraid of the taint, that they won't even consider the fact that Merrill is helping her people. We are forced to kill them, because I won't take responsibility for Merrill when Merethari was also a completely rational adult who could make her own decisions.

They attack en mass because of hatred and self-righteousness. There is no way they can be in the wrong, it has to be all their fault, the shemlen and the outcast.

Essentially Merrill was accomplishing what Dalish are supposed to do, and she was hated because of it.

Merethari was not doing her duty, unwittingly sowed the seeds of hatred and distrust, because she was thinking more of a witless mother with no long-term plan. In addition to her endangering the clan by becoming an abomination without warning anyone, and abandoning the mission of the dalish by denying any research into the eluvian, and breaking her deal with merrill in act 2.

That's essentially my rant about Merrill and the Dalish. I always romance Merrill as well. She's just so dang cute and intelligent...just naive. Of course, she seems much more sarcastic later in the game than innocently naive. Another trait I like because she pulls it off well.

Wall of text is finished.

[Shadowvalker]

You got my vote, dragonflight288! Exacly my thoughts regarding Merrill and the use of blod magic!

[MisterJB]

[quote]
Mine is at least based on evidence provided, while your conjecture is based on stuff that amounts to people saying "It's the most likely thing, despite not having anything to really support its foundation."[/quote]
The notion that any demon that attempts to help any mortal is simply doing so in order to help himself is as real as that that demons prefer to possess mages in stations of power.

[quote]The Demon was trapped, sundered from the Fade, and couldn't harm anyone unless freed by a powerful spell cast on the prison.

And you're saying that freeing said Demon was the right thing to do?[/quote]
Not talking to it in the first place was the right thing to do.
Marethari couldn't kill Merril and it was obvious that the girl would never stop her attempts at contacting the demon and when a mage talks to a demon, there is a very good chance s/he will be possessed.
Marethari preferred to let herself be possessed than let it happen to Merril.


[quote]Wrong. Word of God has said that Demons are drawn to Mages that are influential and powerful. Marethari is the Keeper, having influence over her clan -- and soon, able to have some influence over the Dalish clans -- and is a powerful Mage in her own right.

I have the basis. If I have to provide it, then so be it. But my conjecture is solid, because I have WoG to support my claim.

You see? A Demon will foam at the mouth if they have a powerful and influential Mage in their grasp. And you tell me, who had more influence with the clan, along with a whole frickin' city nearby? Marethari or Merrill?

The answer is Marethari, because Marethari stayed on the mountain -- where Audacity could still manipulate her subtly -- whereas Merrill left the mountain and the farther she went, it caused Audacity to lose any potential influence over her. Proximity matters a great deal to him, as the farther up the mountain they went the louder his whispers became.

Marethari was already the Keeper. She was powerful, influential, and highly prideful.

Merrill was at the time only 2 of the 3. Prideful and powerful, and her pride begins to severely diminish during the years in Kirkwall, whereas Marethari's stayed the same (if not grew).

Merrill will tell you that she didn't have many friends in the clan due to a very sheltered upbringing even amongst them. Thus, her influence with them wasn't very big.[/quote]

You are attempting to disprove an entire arc of the game based on a single observed behavior that was evidenced by a demon who was in a completely different situation from that in Sundermount.
That demons might prefer someone influential is true but that it was Merril and not Marethari who conversed with the demon is also true; that it was Merril that started using blood magic and communicating with other demons is also true; that we are flat out presented with the demon's plan, a plan that Merril (so far as I remember) does not claim was impossible, is also true.
I don't buy that Marethari was its plan all along, it's too far-fetched.

[quote]
Not when those demons are trapped, sundered from the Fade, and can only be freed if a very powerful and specific spell is cast on the prison it's trapped in.

The safer course of action is standing right in front of you, trapped in a demonic Buddha statue.[/quote]
The fact that was imprisoned only assured that it would do everything in its power to manipulate Merril into freeing it. And lo and behold, that safer course of action ended up destroying Merril's clan.


[quote]
Their own fault. They are accountable for their own actions.[/quote]
Merril's actions led to theirs.

[quote]
Merrill wasn't dying. It's not like her diaphragm was being crushed by a pair of oxen and Marethari summoned the strength to lift them, at the cost of her own life.

Merrill was safe -- with people she could rely on -- and Marethari decided to endanger her daughter, herself, her clan, and potentially Kirkwall without even notifying anyone of her intentions.[/quote]
Merril had already endangered all you mentioned the minute she started repairing the Eluvian on the words of a demon. It's obvious that somehow factors into the demon's plan to be freed.

[quote]What would you say if Merrill and company died because Marethari went Abomination? Whose fault would that be then? Would you still defend Marethari, saying "she did the right thing, what a loving mother would do"?

Or would you recognize that her actions were potentially damning for a great deal many people then Marethari thought?

Because if the latter, then you have to acknowledge that it's the same thing when Merrill and company killed her. If the former, then that's just foolish.[/quote]
Oh, her actions were dangerous, no doubt about it. But more dangerous were Merril's who thought she could play with a demon.
As I've said before, Marethari's only crime was placing her daughter above everything else. I won't blame her for it.

[quote]
That she'd bring back the taint, which Merrill tells her that they've gone over it before -- never mind that Merrill used her own healing magic amplified by blood to cleanse the shard, which as I've said before that type of magic could combat the taint in its unamplified form.

That lie -- "She'll bring back the taint and doom us all!" -- caused the clan to view Merrill as a monster. They hated her even more, wanted her gone from their life, and did stupid things because of that fear.[/quote]
Merril was fooling around with a mirror that had already kill two people on the words of a demon. Thinking she might bring doom upon all who surround her is not a lie; it's a very reasonable assumption.

[quote]Never mind even more that if Merrill was tainted, returning to the clan wouldn't be all happy sunshines and rainbows like Marethari wants to believe. Merrill would be tainted, turn into a broodmother, or seek out the Darkspawn, or they'd seek her, and the clan would still hate her. [/quote]
Hence why it was paramount she rid herself of the thing. Besides, the taint wasn’t the only danger inherent to the mirror.

[quote]

You can tell them to hate blood magic without telling them to hate the Mage, which is exactly what Marethari bred into the clan. She made them hate both the blood magic and the Mage, and then deluded herself into thinking things would be perfect if Merrill returned home.[/quote]
Blood magic is not some incurable disease. It's a choice and Merril chose to use it despite the inherent danger.

[quote]Things are never that simple.

Making the clan hate her is only going to prove that she won't get any support from them and only further drive a wedge between her and the clan. There's a reason why the Rivalry path makes Merrill feel like she can trust no one but herself. It's because no one supports her on anything, calling her a monster or wrong or deserving of death.[/quote]
She was wrong. It is my firm belief she should not be supported.


[quote]If they supported her quest to repair the Eluvian, but asked her to at least stop the blood magic because they wanted to be safe then sorry, that'd be one thing. If they had separated the danger of the taint from the Eluvian in their minds, that'd help Merrill see that the clan might help her.

They'd be understanding on the Eluvian aspect -- even if a bit wary due to their past experiences with it -- but wary on the blood magic one.

That would help Merrill go back to the clan. [/quote]
The clan was right to be cautious; the mirror was tainted by means unknown and had already killed two people. It is part of a forgotten past, who knows what it could do.
I won’t support fear getting in the way of research but maybe the clan would be more willing to listen hadn’t Merril consorted with a demon, thus increasing the danger by tenfold.
And, as it turned out, they were right. There was danger inherent to the Eluvian, even if they couldn’t have known.


[quote]

You're wrong.

Fear of magic drives villagers to blame Mage children for a bad crop, or a dead child, or drought and kill them.

Fear of Mages and Magic -- along with petty hatred -- drove an unjust Annulment to be called on the Kirkwall Circle.

Fear of the Qunari drove fanatical zealots to kick the dragon repeatedly until he bit back.

Fear IS dangerous. [/quote]
Magic built the Tevinter Imperium, sunk Arlathan, births Abominations. Magic IS more dangerous.



[quote] Merrill's an adult. She's 21-28 years old when we first meet her -- I can't remember how old specifically, but it was told to me that she was in fact an adult in her 20s.[/quote]
Figuratively speaking, of course.

[quote]
And it's two Varterrals. So long as the Varterral has something to protect, duty will bring it back to life. Merrill tells us this -- and do you really think two different Varterrals would be in the same area? That'd just be silly. [/quote]
They could be a mating pair. I’m more willing to believe than that a Varterral is some fort of elven golem that can resurrect out of duty alone but still attacks dalish,



[quote] Replay the game. Merrill does not accept the deal with the Deep Roads Demon. She tells Hawke that if you're careful, you can trick it. She tells Hawke that Demons don't always keep their word.

That's not saying "I accept your terms Demon. Don't know about Hawke, but I do". That's advice to Hawke on what can and can't be done, and Hawke is to make of it what he/she will.[/quote]
She gains rivalry points if Hawke refuses the deal which proves her preferred course of action is making a deal with a demon.
[quote] And for the last time, Night Terrors mind controlled the companions into doing things they wouldn't have otherwise done. Aveline says this, Isabela says this, Merrill says this, Varric says this, etc.

Review the lore. Desire Demons are known to employ mind control. Given that Merrill will state that the Pride Demon controlled her mind despite her fighting against it -- as does Varric IIRC -- we know Pride Demons can do the same, when they're in the Fade.


Outside of the Fade, their power is greatly diminished. [/quote]
So, Merril has just sown she doesn’t have the willpower needed to defend herself against a Demon of Pride . And we are supposed to trust her to defend herself against Audacity? Despite the fact we don’t know how strong it is, if it can force her to the Fade or even just convince her through words alone.


[quote] When the child's life isn't threatened, then I will blame the mother for being an idiot that brought about the possible death of her child.[/quote]
Merril placed herself and everyone around her in danger the moment she started going to demons for help.

[quote] Marethari in the short story is the one that said it was trapped in the statue and sundered from the Fade -- something Merrill echoes to the party in Act 3 -- and then she goes around and frees it.

Smart move, Marethari. You're really deserving of an award for such intelligence! [/quote]
She would never have freed it If Merril hadn’t walked right into the demon’s trap and was about to free it herself.

[quote]
You see, that would've been a smart thing for Marethari to do, where she's doing the motherly thing and the safer thing.

Because I can tell you right now that Merrill would not have fought her clan to get in there, as that would defeat the whole point of her mission. To repair the Eluvian to save them.[/quote]
Wouldn’t she? I’m not so sure, she herself says recovering that piece of lore is worth any risk. Placing guards wouldn’t have been enough, anyway. Merril would just keep trying to get in or attempt other methods of communication.

[quote]

On what?[/quote]
The Circle is an entirely different discussion altogether


[quote]Profaning the dead? Don't see Merrill doing that, given how she calls it ghastly.

Sacrificing people as fodder for spells? Don't see that either, given that she's shown no inclination to do so but every inclination to abstain from it.

Unless you're going to say she's going to suffer a radical personality shift from good blood mage to FOR THE EVULZ!!!

In which case... no. [/quote]
Blood Magic tends to corrupt, however, that was not what I referring to. Merril was on the verge of releasing a demon that was going to possess her.



[quote]
Jowan's "destruction" didn't stem from foolishness. It stemmed from an earnest belief that Eamon was a threat to Ferelden because the man telling him such a thing -- Teyrn Loghain -- was an honored hero made into a symbol of Fereldan ideals.

There was, at that point, no reason to not believe him [/quote]
Jowan practiced blood magic inside the Circle and then left books detailing how to summon demons around a mage child. The man is an idiot


[quote] And Merrill is not naive. Not on matters of the arcane, or the philosophical, or even entirely on human culture -- though she's also not entirely knowledgable on human culture either.

Flemeth herself called her intelligent. And you can't argue with Flemeth. [/quote]
Being intelligent does not preclude being naïve. Her naivety is her belief that she could play a demon.
[quote]
So... yea... you admitted that what it told her could have been a lie. But then you state further down the page that Marethari couldn't possibly have been wrong. [/quote]
Marethari’s words are a believable justification as to why the demon would assist Merril with the Eluvian. I’ve seen nothing to indicate she might be wrong though I would also like to know how exactly she reached that conclusion.

[quote]
Which there weren't. [/quote]
Clearly, there was. Demons can use it as a pathway to the physical world.
More on Marethari’s research later.

[quote] And Merrill had what scraps of lore she could find on the Eluvians in particular, from which she extrapolated from them and built a near-perfect -- albeit dormant -- Eluvian from scratch.

No demons helped her with that after she cleansed the shard. That was entirely her own doing. This is WoG by Gaider himself.

And Merrill also had tons of books in her house. Or did you fail to see those bookshelves? Do you think they're all books on fluffy bunnies? [/quote]
I never claimed Merril was unintelligent. But the Eluvians are a forgotten piece of lore. Researching it wouldn’t have been easy and we know for sure she didn’t know everything since she couldn’t complete it. Merril never denied the possibility the demon could use the Eluvian for its purposes. She simply argued she had taken precautions.

[quote]
And no, it wasn't luring Merrill into a trap. You seem to be deliberately ignoring how Morrigan, the person that had an entire tome devoted to the Eluvians and researched them, says that they go "beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade", as well as felt confident in sending a 1-2 year old and untrained child across it. [/quote]
Not only is Urthemiel a god, we don’t know what precautions Morrigan took while using the mirrors. She is deliberately vague about it and we cane extrapolate much from her words.
So, the Eluvian leads to a place beyond Thedas and the Fade? Do all Eluvians point in the same direction (Arlathan?) or was that one simply focused on that particular place? Does it go through Thedas and the Fade to reach that place? If so, couldn’t a demon use it if it knew how? Audacity did claim it witness its forging.
Nothing of what Morrigan says precludes the possibility of a demon using the Eluvian.
[quote]And Marethari's the one that said in the short story that the demon was trapped and wouldn't harm anyone, because it was sundered from the Fade! [/quote]
And later she claimed that the demon could have used the Eluvian to escape. Your are willing to believe her only when it suits your vision of what happened.

[quote]And she couldn't go to Merrill and say "Fine, we'll study the Eluvians" to Merrill? She's obviously willing to go to Kirkwall for Elves she doesn't really know -- Arianni -- but she won't go to help her own adoptive child and tell her that if something bad is discovered about their past that isn't the Taint once within it, they should put it aside?[/quote]
This is a fair point. However, at which point did Marethari claim that they couldn’t even study the Eluvians? The impression I got was that she considered rebuilding the one that killed Tamlen too dangerous.
 
[quote] So she knows Merrill can handle the Demon when it's trapped in a prison... after releasing it from it's prison?
[/quote]
You can’t kill a statue. But if you killed Marethari, the demon would die with her.

[quote] And no, she can't know that they'll succeed. Not when they haven't had time to prepare and they're up against a Pride Abomination.

What if they failed? What then? [/quote]
I never denied what she did was dangerous. I simply believe Merril’s action forced her down this path.



[quote] Is there any evidence of people who have merged with Demons -- and I mean demons specifically. Not Spirits possibly warped into demons -- and retained control saying they knew said demon's thoughts? [/quote]
Oh no, Merril herself makes the claim demons are just spirits who embody a different emotion. Anders and Justice count. Most abominations are exactly talkative.
Anders became one with Justice and was able to feel everything the spirit felt and know its thoughts. When Marethari became one with the demon, she could have learned its plan.


[quote] Marethari's warnings were "The Eluvians are evil! You must stop!" without delving into specifics that had nothing to do with the Taint within it -- since that's been taken care of.

Had she gone into specifics as early as Act 1, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But she didn't, and thus I don't. Specifics matter if you're telling someone what to do and what not to do, on matters that are far more complex then something like "Don't stick your hand in a fire".[/quote]
I would argue that “Don’t consort with demons” fits into the same category as “Don’t stick your hand in a fire.” Either way, you’re only going to get burned.

[quote] It would if it's banking on Merrill being unable to do so. And then come later on...

....it was beaten to a point of near death. It could've changed its game plan at that moment, trying to play on Merrill's remaining pride to give it a boost -- and witty Hawke's lines apparently always boosted Audacity's power -- of strength to beat the people who nearly killed it. [/quote]
And why not simply pretend everything was fine from the beginning? Invent some story of how Marethari destroyed it. It would be smarter than letting your foes know exactly where you are.


[quote]
True, had she not gone back to Sundermount nothing would've happened. But it was a last ditch attempt, because she had exhausted all existing lore on the Eluvian within her hands.

I can understand that, as she couldn't have expected her mentor to be so manipulated by the demon to have gone and freed it. The Demon was manageable to anyone not stupid enough to free it by way of the only means to do so -- a powerful spell cast on the prison. [/quote]
No, Merril was the manipulated one and was building a back door for the demon to escape its prison. She should never have gone to the demon for advice in the first place.

[quote]Though one should note that you can neglect to tell Marethari of your intentions, and she still ends up possessed. So either that old crone is lightning fast or she was already possessed by Act 3 -- supported by Merrill's statement that the Demon wasn't responding to her attempts to re-converse with it, after having only conversed with it 2 times in the past. [/quote]
Nothing would force the demon to live peacefully with the dalish waiting for Merril if it had already possessed a mage.


[quote]

On the prison of the Demon? [/quote]
And on Eluvians since she didn’t even realize she was building a way out for the demon.
 [quote]And you conveniently ignored my comments about Morrigan and her research on the Eluvians. [/quote]
Only because I thought it obvious that nothing Morrigan says makes it impossible for a demon to use it.

[quote]
Merrill has only met with the demon a total of three times and talked to it twice. It did the majority of the talking. [/quote]
She was schooled into blood magic and (partially) Eluvian lore by it.
Your suggestion that Marethari was subtly manipulated for seven years would require evidence of her having spoken to it more than once. At worst, the demon could whisper into her dreams but if it did do so, it could have convinced her to free it much sooner, it didn’t need to wait until Merril had nearly finished the mirror.
Unless the mirror was its way out.


[quote]
And Marethari couldn't possibly be wrong! She's so perfect that every little thing she utters is the absolute truth of the matter! [/quote]
She is wiser and older than Merril and had an unique insight into the demon's mind at that point so, yes, I am more more willing to believe in what she says than the girl who thinks asking a demon for help is a good idea.

[quote]
There doesn't really seem to be much of a lore basis for that one. I think that was breaking the lore. Using blood magic doesn't automatically invoke a denizen of the Fade to be summoned. There's a particular spell for that, and it requires tearing the Veil a great deal -- though considering how thin Sundermount's Veil is... maybe not so much a lore break. [/quote]
It happened and proves Merril has had contact with demons beyond Audacity.

[quote]Though I'm curious how the hell that barrier was erected in the first place. It's never told to us who put it there. And why would it be put there, barring access to the altar needed to honor the deal with Flemeth? Why not somewhere higher up the path leading to the cave, but away from the altar?
[/quote]
I don’t know, maybe it was related to Flemeth, not the demon in the statue.

[Fallstar]

Merril using blood magic is simply following the ways of her people. The Dalish are trying to recreate the lost culture of Arlathan. Every elf of Arlathan was a mage. Blood magic is referred to by the Dalish as the "Old Ways." That suggests to me that the elves of Arlathan used blood magic. You can cross reference this info with the codex detailing Thedosian historians who suggested that the elves of Arlathan taught blood magic to old Tevinter. Finally two of the scrolls of Banastor, which detail how to learn mind control spells by summoning a demon into you and defeating it in a battle of wills, are found in elven ruins in Origins. There is a significant weight of evidence to suggest that the elves of the time of Arlathan were masters of blood magic.

Based on that information, it is Marethari who is forsaking the beliefs of the Dalish by not encouraging Merril's study of blood magic. As a member of the Dalish, Merril's is absolutely right in pursuing such knowledge. You might independently debate whether what she did was right, but from the Dalish perspective Marethari is in the wrong.