406 réponses à ce sujet

[Ozida]

OP: No, our beauty is in our imperfection. If we loose it, we will become just “ideal” machines. It would be the final point of evolution for all races, meaning that at some point questions such as: “where do we go now?” and “how we develop any further?” will be a critical issue. Just a plain synthetic, well-programmed paradise with no option for any further development.

[Hackulator]

Ozida wrote...

OP: No, our beauty is in our imperfection. If we loose it, we will become just “ideal” machines. It would be the final point of evolution for all races, meaning that at some point questions such as: “where do we go now?” and “how we develop any further?” will be a critical issue. Just a plain synthetic, well-programmed paradise with no option for any further development.

As I have pointed out a number of times, this idea is debunked by the EC, where EDI talks about the possibilities of what kind of life they might become one day. Synthesis is only the final evolution of the current form of life, what comes next will continue to grow in new and wonderful ways.

[3DandBeyond]

Hackulator wrote...

Ozida wrote...

OP: No, our beauty is in our imperfection. If we loose it, we will become just “ideal” machines. It would be the final point of evolution for all races, meaning that at some point questions such as: “where do we go now?” and “how we develop any further?” will be a critical issue. Just a plain synthetic, well-programmed paradise with no option for any further development.

As I have pointed out a number of times, this idea is debunked by the EC, where EDI talks about the possibilities of what kind of life they might become one day. Synthesis is only the final evolution of the current form of life, what comes next will continue to grow in new and wonderful ways.

Yes, but that makes no sense.  The kid describes it as perfection.  How do you evolve past that?  This is gibberish to make it sound good-what EDI says.  It's like they didn't even pay attention to what was written now in the ending itself.

The kid says all organic life will be perfected.  Unless the meaning of that has changed, it's pretty clear.  Or, do you think that any babies these perfect hybrids have will de-evolve so they can evolve?

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 juin 2012 - 02:33 .

[Ozida]

Hackulator wrote...

Ozida wrote...

OP: No, our beauty is in our imperfection. If we loose it, we will become just “ideal” machines. It would be the final point of evolution for all races, meaning that at some point questions such as: “where do we go now?” and “how we develop any further?” will be a critical issue. Just a plain synthetic, well-programmed paradise with no option for any further development.

As I have pointed out a number of times, this idea is debunked by the EC, where EDI talks about the possibilities of what kind of life they might become one day. Synthesis is only the final evolution of the current form of life, what comes next will continue to grow in new and wonderful ways.

I am sorry, but my limited “artistic integrity” does not allow me to
go any further than: a) organic life; synthetic life; c) synthesis.
What other forms of lifes could possible develop from synthesis? It
would rather have to grow more into its organic side, or into its synthetic
side (which is clearly impossible, because that would break the balance between
the perfect combination of two, brining us back to the original conflict between organics
and synthetics). The whole concept reminds me of Stepford Wives… I mean, they were an
organic form of life with a little computer chips in their brains. Didn’t look
so happy to me though…

Modifié par Ozida, 30 juin 2012 - 02:34 .

[Ozida]

Ozida wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Ozida wrote...

OP: No, our beauty is in our imperfection. If we loose it, we will become just “ideal” machines. It would be the final point of evolution for all races, meaning that at some point questions such as: “where do we go now?” and “how we develop any further?” will be a critical issue. Just a plain synthetic, well-programmed paradise with no option for any further development.

As I have pointed out a number of times, this idea is debunked by the EC, where EDI talks about the possibilities of what kind of life they might become one day. Synthesis is only the final evolution of the current form of life, what comes next will continue to grow in new and wonderful ways.

I am sorry, but my limited “artistic integrity” does not allow me to go any further than: a) organic life; synthetic life; c) synthesis.
What other forms of lifes could possible develop from synthesis? It would rather have to grow more into its organic side, or into its synthetic side (which is clearly impossible, because that would break the balance between the perfect combination of two, brining us back to the original conflict between organics and synthetics). The whole concept reminds me of Stepford Wives… I mean, they were an organic form of life with a little computer chips in their brains. Didn’t look too happy to me though…

[Hackulator]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Ozida wrote...

OP: No, our beauty is in our imperfection. If we loose it, we will become just “ideal” machines. It would be the final point of evolution for all races, meaning that at some point questions such as: “where do we go now?” and “how we develop any further?” will be a critical issue. Just a plain synthetic, well-programmed paradise with no option for any further development.

As I have pointed out a number of times, this idea is debunked by the EC, where EDI talks about the possibilities of what kind of life they might become one day. Synthesis is only the final evolution of the current form of life, what comes next will continue to grow in new and wonderful ways.

Yes, but that makes no sense.  The kid describes it as perfection.  How do you evolve past that?  This is gibberish to make it sound good-what EDI says.  It's like they didn't even pay attention to what was written now in the ending itself.

The kid says all organic life will be perfected.  Unless the meaning of that has changed, it's pretty clear.  Or, do you think that any babies these hybrids have will de-evolve so they can evolve?

The Catalyst is a pre-Synthesis being. It cannot fully conceive of what will be possible after Synthesis. Also, The Catalyst only says it once tried a SIMILAR solution to Synthesis (with dramatic pause to suggest its not THAT similar, go listen). Synthesis itself is something that comes from the Crucible, the collected work of EVERY cycle.

One problem I have with a lot of arguments made on this board is people will claim the Catalyst is lying or wrong in one part of their argument, and then point to something else it says as truth to prove another part of their argument. Of course you can construct any sort of framework if you pick and choose what is a lie or truth. You have to at least come up with a good reason why one thign is a lie and another is the truth.

[Enthalpy]

(As an offline 360 player, I just moved my entire setup, deleted a bunch of stuff to make room for those stupid updates, and spent a good chunk of time keying out a long e-mail address on that virtual keyboard to say: )

Yes, I support Synthesis.

[Mezantine]

Hackulator wrote...

Ozida wrote...

OP: No, our beauty is in our imperfection. If we loose it, we will become just “ideal” machines. It would be the final point of evolution for all races, meaning that at some point questions such as: “where do we go now?” and “how we develop any further?” will be a critical issue. Just a plain synthetic, well-programmed paradise with no option for any further development.

As I have pointed out a number of times, this idea is debunked by the EC, where EDI talks about the possibilities of what kind of life they might become one day. Synthesis is only the final evolution of the current form of life, what comes next will continue to grow in new and wonderful ways.

The idea was reinforced by the EC. EDI said that the line between organic and synthetic will be blurred, we are going to eventually become one in the same, devoid of uniqueness. Yes we are going to become a new kind of life one day, but that new life is going to be the exact same for every species. Finally, at the point when we reach immortatlity as she suggests we could do, then we will reach a evolutionary stagnation. 

[justafan]

3DandBeyond wrote...

justafan wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

He said it didn't work because it couldn't be forced.  So, apparently Shepard is the one who is able to forcibly invade the bodies of unknowing people and alter them though they may be unwilling.  And now it's ok.

Well, Shepard did come back from the dead to lead his 12 followers to save the world from the ultimate evil.  So Space Jesus can do what he wants.  I still don't think it is OK though.

Yeah space jesus.  The writers never met a cliche they didn't like.

Nor do I.  The only choice that even has any implied consent for me is
destroy because it's what everyone wanted to do all along.  I don't like
it.  In fact I feel the game is a complete no win.  I prefer at least
one choice that lets me enjoy the ending.  I don't enjoy any of these
and I don't play what isn't fun.  Play and fun go hand in hand. 

Agreed.  At least with destroy, everyone knew that the battle for Earth could very well end in their death.  The humans, Turians, Asari, Krogan, Quarians, and Geth all signed up knowing that they might all die, but that if the reapers were destroyed, it would not be in vain.  Hence, it is acceptable to me to sacrifice the Geth to end the reapers for good, as tragic as it might be.

However I do think that the point of the choices is that there is no clear "golden" ending, thus making the choices more difficult.  The first time through they did a terrible job at this, but at least with the EC I can see where they were going with RGB.

Modifié par justafan, 30 juin 2012 - 02:39 .

[alienatedflea]

what shepard has done for us?! hell yes...he saved us from saren...he saved us numerous times why not trust him now?

[Hackulator]

Mezantine wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Ozida wrote...

OP: No, our beauty is in our imperfection. If we loose it, we will become just “ideal” machines. It would be the final point of evolution for all races, meaning that at some point questions such as: “where do we go now?” and “how we develop any further?” will be a critical issue. Just a plain synthetic, well-programmed paradise with no option for any further development.

As I have pointed out a number of times, this idea is debunked by the EC, where EDI talks about the possibilities of what kind of life they might become one day. Synthesis is only the final evolution of the current form of life, what comes next will continue to grow in new and wonderful ways.

The idea was reinforced by the EC. EDI said that the line between organic and synthetic will be blurred, we are going to eventually become one in the same, devoid of uniqueness. Yes we are going to become a new kind of life one day, but that new life is going to be the exact same for every species. Finally, at the point when we reach immortatlity as she suggests we could do, then we will reach a evolutionary stagnation. 

Dude the jump you just made from "blur the line between synthetics and organics" to "eventually become one and the same, devoid of uniqueness" was so massive and without any sort of logic or proof that I don't really know where to go in this argument.

[Mezantine]

Hackulator wrote...

Mezantine wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Ozida wrote...

OP: No, our beauty is in our imperfection. If we loose it, we will become just “ideal” machines. It would be the final point of evolution for all races, meaning that at some point questions such as: “where do we go now?” and “how we develop any further?” will be a critical issue. Just a plain synthetic, well-programmed paradise with no option for any further development.

As I have pointed out a number of times, this idea is debunked by the EC, where EDI talks about the possibilities of what kind of life they might become one day. Synthesis is only the final evolution of the current form of life, what comes next will continue to grow in new and wonderful ways.

The idea was reinforced by the EC. EDI said that the line between organic and synthetic will be blurred, we are going to eventually become one in the same, devoid of uniqueness. Yes we are going to become a new kind of life one day, but that new life is going to be the exact same for every species. Finally, at the point when we reach immortatlity as she suggests we could do, then we will reach a evolutionary stagnation. 

Dude the jump you just made from "blur the line between synthetics and organics" to "eventually become one and the same, devoid of uniqueness" was so massive and without any sort of logic or proof that I don't really know where to go in this argument.

What do you think that statement means then? when people describe the line being blurred between something it is always used to mean that they are becoming increasing difficult to tell apart. When we couple EDI's statement with the Star Child telling us outright that all species will reach a pinnacle of evolution, we are confronted with the reality that all species will be walking the same path to a similar conclusion. Your basis for picking synthesis is that the sentiments expressed by the likes of EDI and the Star Kid are simply wrong and that you personally have a better understanding of concepts they put forward. You're gambling the organic and evolutionary uniqe futures of the species in the Milky Way based on the assumption that you have a better idea of synthesism, an idea that is in contradiction with how it is explained in game.

[Hackulator]

Dude, the distinction of Synthetic vs Organic is one out of BILLIONS of differences between species. Simply because that distinction is removed does not in any way lead to all other differences being removed.

To give a real world metaphor, if racism and bigotry are reduced in the world, one expectation might be a much higher rate of interracial marriage. This could, in a long enough period of time, lead to humanity homogenizing into one "race" where differences like being caucasian, asian, african, or any other "race" were no longer noticeable. However, this would NOT mean that all human beings are exactly the same. It would mean that one single thing that differentiated them (and which, coincidentally, causes great division) no longer existed.

[Ozida]

Hackulator wrote...

Dude, the distinction of Synthetic vs Organic is one out of BILLIONS of differences between species. Simply because that distinction is removed does not in any way lead to all other differences being removed.

To give a real world metaphor, if racism and bigotry are reduced in the world, one expectation might be a much higher rate of interracial marriage. This could, in a long enough period of time, lead to humanity homogenizing into one "race" where differences like being caucasian, asian, african, or any other "race" were no longer noticeable. However, this would NOT mean that all human beings are exactly the same. It would mean that one single thing that differentiated them (and which, coincidentally, causes great division) no longer existed.

Ok, so if we all (whatever we will be, I will just call them iBorgs for now ), so if all iBorgs keep their identity... we still have the bad guys then, right? Because we are not programmed and have free mind (according to your statement, if I understood it correctly). So there still be wars between iBorgs & iBorgs. And which problem does it solve exactly then? I can just imaging it: Mass Effect 3000: Return of GodChild to clean up a mess of synthetics trying to kill synthetics (probably by creating some supre organics), lol.

Modifié par Ozida, 30 juin 2012 - 03:09 .

[Mezantine]

Hackulator wrote...

Dude, the distinction of Synthetic vs Organic is one out of BILLIONS of differences between species. Simply because that distinction is removed does not in any way lead to all other differences being removed.

To give a real world metaphor, if racism and bigotry are reduced in the world, one expectation might be a much higher rate of interracial marriage. This could, in a long enough period of time, lead to humanity homogenizing into one "race" where differences like being caucasian, asian, african, or any other "race" were no longer noticeable. However, this would NOT mean that all human beings are exactly the same. It would mean that one single thing that differentiated them (and which, coincidentally, causes great division) no longer existed.

Yes and it is that very distinction that synthesis is going to subvert, change, and convert into a single unified identity. As for your metaphore do you have any idea how long such a process would actually take? Also what about our recessive genes are these simply going to disappear? Ultimatley i don't really know why you brought this up as a metaphor since it is your desire to ignore this natural evolution and replace it by forcing all life to turn into to something that has no place in our universe. But you are correct, simply breeding into a more similar looking race would not make all human beings the exact same, however such a future is in no way comparable to forcing everybody to share the exact same DNA sequences. You can't rewrite all species DNA along the same lines and expect us to keep our unique identites whilst at the same time being so similar to everything else we see no distinction between each other. The synthesis choice is easy to make, do you want to remain human in a universe with other different species, or do you want to surrender your identity and become something indistinguishable from all other species?

[Hackulator]

Ozida wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Dude, the distinction of Synthetic vs Organic is one out of BILLIONS of differences between species. Simply because that distinction is removed does not in any way lead to all other differences being removed.

To give a real world metaphor, if racism and bigotry are reduced in the world, one expectation might be a much higher rate of interracial marriage. This could, in a long enough period of time, lead to humanity homogenizing into one "race" where differences like being caucasian, asian, african, or any other "race" were no longer noticeable. However, this would NOT mean that all human beings are exactly the same. It would mean that one single thing that differentiated them (and which, coincidentally, causes great division) no longer existed.

Ok, so if we all (whatever we will be, I will just call them iBorgs for now ), so if all iBorgs keep their identity... we still have the bad guys then, right? Because we are not programmed and have free mind (according to your statement, if I understood it correctly). So there still be wars between iBorgs & iBorgs. And which problem does it solve exactly then? I can just imaging it: Mass Effect 3000: Return of GodChild to clean up a mess of synthetics trying to kill synthetics (probably by creating some supre organics), lol.

The point is that we will have no many less reasons to fight against one another. Think about it, at the end of ME3, the races of the galaxy are united against the Reapers. Now what about the Reapers you say, they're still around and HELPING? Yes, that is the one remaining conflict, however one side has stood down, and all post synthesis beings on the other side would know that attacking peaceful, helpful Reapers is not a winning strategy in the near future.

As a result of these facts, Synthesis doesn't have to CAUSE peace, it just has to keep it from falling apart, and it is uniquely suited to do so. In the history of humanity, conflists have arisen almost exclusively as a result of the competition for resources. The millions of years of knowledge and technology granted to us by the Reapers, combined with the increased capabilities of every lifeform in the galaxy will trivialize that competition.

One example of a situation where Synthesis could prevent an otherwise inevitable conflict involves the Krogan. Since Organics have gained the strengths of Synthetics, one could fairly assume that Organics have gained a level of autonomous control of their own bodies. This could allow the Krogan to self-regulate their birthrate, thus avoiding the massive population explosions which led to the Krogan Rebellions.

[Hackulator]

Mezantine wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Dude, the distinction of Synthetic vs Organic is one out of BILLIONS of differences between species. Simply because that distinction is removed does not in any way lead to all other differences being removed.

To give a real world metaphor, if racism and bigotry are reduced in the world, one expectation might be a much higher rate of interracial marriage. This could, in a long enough period of time, lead to humanity homogenizing into one "race" where differences like being caucasian, asian, african, or any other "race" were no longer noticeable. However, this would NOT mean that all human beings are exactly the same. It would mean that one single thing that differentiated them (and which, coincidentally, causes great division) no longer existed.

Yes and it is that very distinction that synthesis is going to subvert, change, and convert into a single unified identity. As for your metaphore do you have any idea how long such a process would actually take? Also what about our recessive genes are these simply going to disappear? Ultimatley i don't really know why you brought this up as a metaphor since it is your desire to ignore this natural evolution and replace it by forcing all life to turn into to something that has no place in our universe. But you are correct, simply breeding into a more similar looking race would not make all human beings the exact same, however such a future is in no way comparable to forcing everybody to share the exact same DNA sequences. You can't rewrite all species DNA along the same lines and expect us to keep our unique identites whilst at the same time being so similar to everything else we see no distinction between each other. The synthesis choice is easy to make, do you want to remain human in a universe with other different species, or do you want to surrender your identity and become something indistinguishable from all other species?

Not everyone has the same DNA. If everyone had the same DNA, Krogan babies would not look like Krogan.

[Hackulator]

Rubios wrote...

PS: Having philosophical debates in a foreign language kinda feels like multitasking, feel free to correct any mistakes 

Somewhat depressingly, your english is better than a large number of native speakers. Also, I agree with most of what you say.

Modifié par Hackulator, 30 juin 2012 - 03:32 .

[Mezantine]

Hackulator wrote...

Not everyone has the same DNA. If everyone had the same DNA, Krogan babies would not look like Krogan.

If anything they are simply a new species inside a Korgan shell, and like EDI has said, the line is going to be blurred between us. Synthesis can't have it both ways, you can't be uniqe and indistinguishable from all other species. Also since EDI believes we can achieve immortatliy then we have no need to have babies anyway.

[Ozida]

Hackulator wrote...
The point is that we will have no many less reasons to fight against one another...

That is very OPTIMISTIC thought, my friend. Just by judging the real life, there are crazy people, who are mad, angry and cruel. They kill because they like to kill, not because they don’t have enough resources (sometimes, it even happens because they have those resources).

 So, OK, just to wrap my mind around it:

1. Synthesis will cure all madness, so our iBorgs won’t just attack each other for no reason.
2. Synthesis will help keeping resources on acceptable level, so everybody would have just enough (a Mass Effect Social Republic?)
3. Synthesis will keep Reapers as helpers and iBorgs will completely forget about the whole war over the time (which is quite possible, I agree).
4. We will keep our DNAs but everyone will behaive.

So we have a society that does not have any challenges, is that correct? Which brings me back to the question: how do we evolve next from here? Evolution happens to overcome the natural challenges, not just because
species have to evolve by some mother-nature law. With no challenges and everybody living a happily-ever-after (especially considering that it can become immortal)… I mean wont’ iBorgs just commit suicides because of how boring their life will become?

Modifié par Ozida, 30 juin 2012 - 03:39 .

[d-boy15]

resistance 2 ending... that what gonna happen to him, if he think he's a god who have right
to change everything.

[Ozida]

Ok, I guess, I have stated my opinion and I respect yours... We see it in a very different ways . So I just finish by a conclusion of my statement: no way I would've given Shepard my permission for Synthesis.