162 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

Dyranos wrote...

It Is deus ex machina, your quote even says it. The catalyst is the unexpected interention of a character whom we know NOTHING about, it doesnt matter if we are looking for the catalyst because it turns out to be something completely unexpected to the plot that introduces an unexpected way to solve the problem, Even if we are looking for the catalyst the entire game the "Star Child" is a brand new character introduced to us right at the end who offers ways to stop the reapers, without him Shepard would not have known what to do or even get up that platform, the fact that we were looking for the catalyst since the start of the game is redundant because the Star Child is a new character introduced in the last 10 minutes of the game, there is no way around it and you should stop denying the facts, it is a Deus Ex Machina.

The "Star Child" is the Catalyst. The Catalyst plot element is introduced early in the game and it solves nothing in the end, the Crucible does everything, the only thing the Catalyst does is tell us what the Crucible does. It doesn't actually solve anything in the plot.

Deus ex machinas aren't introduced early and they solve problems.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 29 juin 2012 - 05:20 .

[CHALET]

Nvm.

Modifié par CHALET, 29 juin 2012 - 05:21 .

[flanny]

I agree it was a middle finger

as a side note can people stop with the 'well you just got what you asked for' comment, no, people asked for an ending that made sense where you could reject bioware's stupid endings, people who asked for this wanted this ending wanted it to be a proper ending like others (except that it makes sense), we didn't want bioware to throw a fit, give us the finger, say haha you lose following by 'look, look, even if you reject our options the next cycle doesn't so your rejection is meaningless.'

that is why people are annoyed

[Atrave]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

"A Deus ex Machina is when an outside force fixes a seemingly unsolvable problem in an unexpected way. If the secret documents are in Russian, one of the spies suddenly reveals that they learned the language. If the writers have just lost funding, a millionaire suddenly arrives, announces an interest in their movie, and offers all the finances they need to make it." -Tv Tropes

"A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object." -Wikipedia

The Crucible does everything, the Catalyst isn't new it is known about from the start of the game, and when we reach the Catalyst it solves nothing, it just relays what the Crucible does.

Not a deus ex machina.

Just talking about the plot device as it is commonly used in writing, it is Deus ex Machina.  Just because the Catalyst is mentioned before doesnt mean it cant be Deus ex Machina because its nature is not revealed until the end.  That nature also proved, suddenly, to be completely different then what was introduced before.

To give an example: if people in a story need the, I dont know, the Jewel of Awesome.  At the end, the Jewel of Awesome (Catalyst) gets the potion of coolness (Crucible) put on it and turns out to be an imprisoned god who solves all the problems in the story, which is still Deus ex Machina. What has happened is you have introduce another character since its nature is totally different then what was introduced before.

I am not trying to put a dog into the fight of the endings being good or bad.  I am just saying that the Catalyst is Deus ex Machine, for better or worse.

Thanks:)

Modifié par Atrave, 29 juin 2012 - 05:29 .

[comrade gando]

Keith szarabajka (harbinger's voice actor) IS IN ME3. Listed under additional voices. Why that and not harbinger? Wtf happened

[indyracing]

Helios969 wrote...

It works both ways. Don't like my art? Well here you go? / No I don't like your art, so middle finger back at you.

That's how I see it.

[flanny]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Dyranos wrote...

It Is deus ex machina, your quote even says it. The catalyst is the unexpected interention of a character whom we know NOTHING about, it doesnt matter if we are looking for the catalyst because it turns out to be something completely unexpected to the plot that introduces an unexpected way to solve the problem, Even if we are looking for the catalyst the entire game the "Star Child" is a brand new character introduced to us right at the end who offers ways to stop the reapers, without him Shepard would not have known what to do or even get up that platform, the fact that we were looking for the catalyst since the start of the game is redundant because the Star Child is a new character introduced in the last 10 minutes of the game, there is no way around it and you should stop denying the facts, it is a Deus Ex Machina.

The "Star Child" is the Catalyst. The Catalyst plot element is introduced early in the game and it solves nothing in the end, the Crucible does everything, the only thing the Catalyst does is tell us what the Crucible does. It doesn't actually solve anything in the plot.

Deus ex machinas aren't introduced early and they solve problems.

the Crucible is simply a power source, it does nothing but gives the catalyst the power to create different coloured waves

also in what way is  'The Catalyst plot element  introduced early in the game' ? it completely goes against everything from ME lore and nothing even comes close to hinting at it's existence

[shodiswe]

Refusing the catalysts options given by the crucible doesn't make sense anyway... You should have known you would loose... there would have been no reason to build that thing if the reapers could be beaten conventionaly.

If people think the options given are worse than everyone dying then they got the option of having everyone dieing.... It makes perfect sense.

You are loosing but yet you are given three options besides fightign to your death.

1. Destroy all reapers but one of the specis that could potential have been and who might very well have been allied with shepard to die out for all eternity.

2. Prove that you can handle the peace between the Organics and synthetics better than the catalyst could... Prove it wrong.

3. Fulfill the original function of the catalyst and unite all organic and synthetic life, giving everyone unlimited acces to all knowledge of thousands of specis and a rich history. And the reconstruction and improvement of all that once was due to the increased knowledge and technology available.

Or if you consider it a better option, just fight to the death and let future cycles pick their destiny if they ever get another chance.

Or did you expet the refusal to spacemagically increase the availalbe allied military forces to increase a thousand fold and wipe out the reapers?

[F0RTYSEVEN]

Dyranos wrote...

 I get the absolute feeling here that this is Casey Hudson talking, if we dont like the endings we are provided with and we heriocally say no we are rewarded with "SO BE IT!" Then everyone dies.

Essentially a giant middle finger to the fans, ME3 has caused me to lose so much respect for bioware and its head team its unreal, well played Hudson.

I actually think its a positive nod towards indoc supporters. Even if indoc is true who says its even possible for Shepard to survive waking up. Harby's probably still aiming at the guy knocked out on the ground.

Maybe beating indoctrination leads to your cycle losing?

[Necromonger Lordmarshal]

The refusal ending was awesome. Its not an FU. It shows that not all stories need to have happy endings. Bioware delivered that! I have longed to see a movie or game end this way. Makes a bigger impact on my feelings towards it and more engaged in the story. It breaks tradition and it is good.

[Clayless]

flanny wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Dyranos wrote...

It Is deus ex machina, your quote even says it. The catalyst is the unexpected interention of a character whom we know NOTHING about, it doesnt matter if we are looking for the catalyst because it turns out to be something completely unexpected to the plot that introduces an unexpected way to solve the problem, Even if we are looking for the catalyst the entire game the "Star Child" is a brand new character introduced to us right at the end who offers ways to stop the reapers, without him Shepard would not have known what to do or even get up that platform, the fact that we were looking for the catalyst since the start of the game is redundant because the Star Child is a new character introduced in the last 10 minutes of the game, there is no way around it and you should stop denying the facts, it is a Deus Ex Machina.

The "Star Child" is the Catalyst. The Catalyst plot element is introduced early in the game and it solves nothing in the end, the Crucible does everything, the only thing the Catalyst does is tell us what the Crucible does. It doesn't actually solve anything in the plot.

Deus ex machinas aren't introduced early and they solve problems.

the Crucible is simply a power source, it does nothing but gives the catalyst the power to create different coloured waves

also in what way is  'The Catalyst plot element  introduced early in the game' ? it completely goes against everything from ME lore and nothing even comes close to hinting at it's existence

Incorrect the Citadel, Shepard and the Crucible do everything. The Catalyst isn't the Citadel, the Citadel is the Catalyst's home.

Also the Catalyst is known about from early on in the game. While I can't exactly remember when (I think it might be Mars) it's definately before Thessia as you go to Thessia, Cerberus and the Citadel for the Catalyst. What the Catalyst is is not known, but the Catalyst as a plot device is introduced early in the game, nor does it actually solve anything, which nullifies it from being a deus ex machina.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 29 juin 2012 - 05:39 .

[shodiswe]

comrade gando wrote...

Keith szarabajka (harbinger's voice actor) IS IN ME3. Listed under additional voices. Why that and not harbinger? Wtf happened

Because Harbinger wasn't the big bad evil... it was just a minion of the catalyst. Like sovereign.

[shodiswe]

In other words, Harbinger is the Kai Leng of the reapers.... Loud, mouthy, a waste of time...

[Qeylis]

Torrible wrote...

Qeylis wrote...

Oh, I expect a lock on this one. Sorry. Many threads about the giant F U to the fans. Many mainstream publications calling it an F U. How BioWare does not see it as an F U is beyond me.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Hanlon's Razor.

If Bioware doesn't realise they are insulting the fans, then they aren't. 

Um, Derp?

Did you not see Hanlon's Razor, you quoted it.  I'm giving BioWare credit for being amazingly, astoundingly, shockingly stupid, and not doing this out of malice.

[iAFKinMassEffect3]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

This is exactly what MANY fans demanded for in this past 3 months.


All of a sudden it's an F U when it's in the game.

This
That is exactly what is was, Casey told us to go f**k ourselves.

[RebelTitan428]

To be honest the Suicide Mission in ME2 should've been to stop the collectors (protheans) who have since regained the crucibles plains, not to stop the Arnold Schwarze-Reaper, so that the crucible doesnt become a glaring point of "Where the F did this idea come from?"

[Omega Torsk]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

This is exactly what MANY fans demanded for in this past 3 months. All of a sudden it's an F U when it's in the game.

Some people just want to hate Bioware it seems.

This. It seems that people just won't be satisfied with anything.

[Clayless]

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

This is exactly what MANY fans demanded for in this past 3 months.


All of a sudden it's an F U when it's in the game.

This
That is exactly what is was, Casey told us to go f**k ourselves.

Please don't take my post out of context like that.

[iAFKinMassEffect3]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...



Incorrect the Citadel, Shepard and the Crucible do everything. The Catalyst isn't the Citadel, the Citadel is the Catalyst's home.

Also the Catalyst is known about from early on in the game. While I can't exactly remember when (I think it might be Mars) it's definately before Thessia as you go to Thessia, Cerberus and the Citadel for the Catalyst. What the Catalyst is is not known, but the Catalyst as a plot device is introduced early in the game, nor does it actually solve anything, which nullifies it from being a deus ex machina.

Incorrect: The catalyst said he was a part of what we call the citadel.

Incorrect: Thessia is extremely late on in the game.
-Thessia
-Sanctuary 
-Attack TIM's base

[Jackums]

Everyone dies for refusing because that's what's realistic given the circumstances, not because BioWare hate you. I mean, they may, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that refusing results in what's realistic given what's been established in regards to the Reapers and a conventional victory.

[iAFKinMassEffect3]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

This is exactly what MANY fans demanded for in this past 3 months.


All of a sudden it's an F U when it's in the game.

This
That is exactly what is was, Casey told us to go f**k ourselves.

Please don't take my post out of context like that.

The first two sentences sounded like you were bashing bioware.
Sorry if you can't see that, I found it funny.

Modifié par iAFKinMassEffect3, 29 juin 2012 - 05:55 .

[HellishFiend]

So the OP is saying that starchild has a new line where he sounds like a Reaper but it's actually Casey Hudson?

If you're so insistent on taking the endings at face value, why not just accept it for what it is? Starchild loses his cool and sounds like a Reaper. If you want to start seeing symbolism in things, that opens up doors you've already chosen to ignore.

If you're going to make a stand, stick with it. Dont start picking and choosing where you see face-value and where you see symbolism because it's convenient for you.

[Qeylis]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

flanny wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Dyranos wrote...

It Is deus ex machina, your quote even says it. The catalyst is the unexpected interention of a character whom we know NOTHING about, it doesnt matter if we are looking for the catalyst because it turns out to be something completely unexpected to the plot that introduces an unexpected way to solve the problem, Even if we are looking for the catalyst the entire game the "Star Child" is a brand new character introduced to us right at the end who offers ways to stop the reapers, without him Shepard would not have known what to do or even get up that platform, the fact that we were looking for the catalyst since the start of the game is redundant because the Star Child is a new character introduced in the last 10 minutes of the game, there is no way around it and you should stop denying the facts, it is a Deus Ex Machina.

The "Star Child" is the Catalyst. The Catalyst plot element is introduced early in the game and it solves nothing in the end, the Crucible does everything, the only thing the Catalyst does is tell us what the Crucible does. It doesn't actually solve anything in the plot.

Deus ex machinas aren't introduced early and they solve problems.

the Crucible is simply a power source, it does nothing but gives the catalyst the power to create different coloured waves

also in what way is  'The Catalyst plot element  introduced early in the game' ? it completely goes against everything from ME lore and nothing even comes close to hinting at it's existence

Incorrect the Citadel, Shepard and the Crucible do everything. The Catalyst isn't the Citadel, the Citadel is the Catalyst's home.

Also the Catalyst is known about from early on in the game. While I can't exactly remember when (I think it might be Mars) it's definately before Thessia as you go to Thessia, Cerberus and the Citadel for the Catalyst. What the Catalyst is is not known, but the Catalyst as a plot device is introduced early in the game, nor does it actually solve anything, which nullifies it from being a deus ex machina.

This argument is stupid.  It has been well established that this is one of the best examples of Deus ex Machina in recent history.  

1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.

Star Child solved all our problems, not the Citidel.  The Citidel was not the Catalyst, Star Child was.  

He was a god introduced to rosolve a plot and extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.

He was and unexpected, artificial, and extremely improbable character or device that was introduced suddenly in a work of fiction to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.

He was a person or event that provided a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.

Now, please stop arguing with Our Last Scene.  He is wrong, let him pound sand.

[Clayless]

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...



Incorrect the Citadel, Shepard and the Crucible do everything. The Catalyst isn't the Citadel, the Citadel is the Catalyst's home.

Also the Catalyst is known about from early on in the game. While I can't exactly remember when (I think it might be Mars) it's definately before Thessia as you go to Thessia, Cerberus and the Citadel for the Catalyst. What the Catalyst is is not known, but the Catalyst as a plot device is introduced early in the game, nor does it actually solve anything, which nullifies it from being a deus ex machina.

Incorrect: The catalyst said he was a part of what we call the citadel.

Incorrect: Thessia is extremely late on in the game.
-Thessia
-Sanctuary 
-Attack TIM's base

He is asked "I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst?" to which he replies "No. The Citadel is my home.", so he plainly differences himself from the Citadel.

Thessia is followed by 3 Priority missions, and the Catalyst plot device was known about from before Thessia (4 priority missions before the end) which means it's atleast know about for 1/4 of the game, though I'm sure it was known soon after Mars.

[flanny]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

flanny wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Dyranos wrote...

It Is deus ex machina, your quote even says it. The catalyst is the unexpected interention of a character whom we know NOTHING about, it doesnt matter if we are looking for the catalyst because it turns out to be something completely unexpected to the plot that introduces an unexpected way to solve the problem, Even if we are looking for the catalyst the entire game the "Star Child" is a brand new character introduced to us right at the end who offers ways to stop the reapers, without him Shepard would not have known what to do or even get up that platform, the fact that we were looking for the catalyst since the start of the game is redundant because the Star Child is a new character introduced in the last 10 minutes of the game, there is no way around it and you should stop denying the facts, it is a Deus Ex Machina.

The "Star Child" is the Catalyst. The Catalyst plot element is introduced early in the game and it solves nothing in the end, the Crucible does everything, the only thing the Catalyst does is tell us what the Crucible does. It doesn't actually solve anything in the plot.

Deus ex machinas aren't introduced early and they solve problems.

the Crucible is simply a power source, it does nothing but gives the catalyst the power to create different coloured waves

also in what way is  'The Catalyst plot element  introduced early in the game' ? it completely goes against everything from ME lore and nothing even comes close to hinting at it's existence

Incorrect the Citadel, Shepard and the Crucible do everything. The Catalyst isn't the Citadel, the Citadel is the Catalyst's home.

Also the Catalyst is known about from early on in the game. While I can't exactly remember when (I think it might be Mars) it's definately before Thessia as you go to Thessia, Cerberus and the Citadel for the Catalyst. What the Catalyst is is not known, but the Catalyst as a plot device is introduced early in the game, nor does it actually solve anything, which nullifies it from being a deus ex machina.

No, the cruicible is just a power source nothing more, the catalyst is the citedal. the catalyst even says it

sorry about the second point, i thought you meant the idea of the god child not the need for catalyst to complete the crucible