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[Qeylis]

SirCroft wrote...

Qeylis wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

This is exactly what MANY fans demanded for in this past 3 months. All of a sudden it's an F U when it's in the game.

Some people just want to hate Bioware it seems.

Many more were asking for a conventional victory with the refuse ending, thats how.

Damn, a few people ask for something stupid, so we all asked for something stupid?

Conventional victory is not possible, if it were, Reapers would be dead by now. I find it hard to believe that out of the God knows how many cycles the current one (regardless of how high your EMS is) would be the only one to be able to defeat the Reapers through raw fire power.
This is a plot hole.

No Cycle has ever had the advantages we had.

We knew far more about the Reapers than any other Cycle.  True, some leaders ignored it, but our scientist were hard at work trying to understand them, and their tech.

We are the first Cycle to ever find Reaper Command and Control (The god Persus, and the Citidel.)  A massive advantage that we could have exploited.

We are the only Cycle in which the sneak attack failed.  This allowed us to retain more of our fleet than other Cycles.

We had the Shepard.  The galaxies greatest bad a**.  Other Cycles have had heros too, but none like the Shepard.

Yes, a conventional victory is possible, its fiction, anything is possible.  The one thing I would have said was impossible is a god is going to fix everything.

[Clayless]

Qeylis wrote...

I'm trying to end this argument.  This thread is about the F U ending, not was Persus an example of Deus ex Machina.  Of course he was.  He was a god from the machine that solved my problems.  He brought me back to life, a big problem solved.  He said "The Crucible changed ME."  Not, the Citidel.  

The Crucible made the Deus ex Machina possible.  If we had not attached the Crucible, Persus might not have been inclined to help.  

Persus, god.  Citidel + Crucible, machine.  Persus from machine, truest definition of DeM.  Problems solved because Persus came from machine.  Couldn't do it without Persus, F U ending proves that.

Can we get back to the F U ending now?

A deus ex machina as a literary technique is what we're talking about, not an interpritation of what a deus ex machina means from it's Latin origin.

He never brought Shepard back, he mearly relayed information to Shepard. The Crucible changed him but he didn't actually solve anything, he mearly relayed the information to you because the Crucible altered the variables.

The Catalyst plot device was known about from earlier in the story and is a driving force behind a large part of it, and it doesn't solve anything. AKA not a deus ex machina.

But yes we can end this here and get back to the refuse ending.

[billywaffles]

I think that line is just pure awesome!

[Qeylis]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Qeylis wrote...

I'm trying to end this argument.  This thread is about the F U ending, not was Persus an example of Deus ex Machina.  Of course he was.  He was a god from the machine that solved my problems.  He brought me back to life, a big problem solved.  He said "The Crucible changed ME."  Not, the Citidel.  

The Crucible made the Deus ex Machina possible.  If we had not attached the Crucible, Persus might not have been inclined to help.  

Persus, god.  Citidel + Crucible, machine.  Persus from machine, truest definition of DeM.  Problems solved because Persus came from machine.  Couldn't do it without Persus, F U ending proves that.

Can we get back to the F U ending now?

A deus ex machina as a literary technique is what we're talking about, not an interpritation of what a deus ex machina means from it's Latin origin.

He never brought Shepard back, he mearly relayed information to Shepard. The Crucible changed him but he didn't actually solve anything, he mearly relayed the information to you because the Crucible altered the variables.

The Catalyst plot device was known about from earlier in the story and is a driving force behind a large part of it, and it doesn't solve anything. AKA not a deus ex machina.

But yes we can end this here and get back to the refuse ending.

See, and this is why I trolled you.  You're just wrong.  If showing you the definition, and how it fits perfectly into ME3 doesn't convince you, nothing will.

Persus said "The Crucible changed me."  If it changed him, then he is what we focus on.  How many times am I going to have to repeat that? 

Persus woke up a dead, or near dead Shepard (play it again if you don't believe me.)

Persus offered Shepard choices that fix all his problems.

Persus did not have to wake Shepard up to show him the solutions.  He could have let him die.  It would have made infinitely more sense to let him die.

Also, yes, the Latin definition does apply.  It fits in to the modern definition, and the ancient definition.  You are wrong on both counts.  By your definition, a Greek play would not be Deus ex Machina because we know about Zues.  Knowing about a god does not make it any less Deus ex Machina!

Its crazy though, because no one, no one would have ever predicted that Persus would come and save us.  Since it is improbable that Persus would save us, it is Deus ex Machina.

["No, the Crucible saved us, not Persus"]

Nope, it was Persus.

["Crucible"]

Persus

And this argument goes on in to infinity.  You will still be wrong.

I really am done with this now.

[M Hedonist]

Nope. It was actually Emperor Palpatine saying that.

[Slayer299]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

This is exactly what MANY fans demanded for in this past 3 months. All of a sudden it's an F U when it's in the game.

Some people just want to hate Bioware it seems.

As I remember people wanted their choices up to now that would determine the Reapers winning, not Shepard feeling the Startwit cannot be trusted so he goes with Option 4 and everyone looses. Of course that would have made sense for *all* of the endings, not just the 'too bad, you don't like the other 3 so now you lose' ending.

[Zall]

I loved this ending, actually. It's exactly what some people wanted.

[RiouHotaru]

I think shooting him is just an Easter Egg, since there were a LOT of people who talked about shooting him before picking their ending. There's no hidden conspiracy or agenda here.

[OGWS]

I thought it was funny. I totally didn't expect shooting him to do anything and was surprised it did, I was all "Oh crap". I was glad they included a Reaper victory, I didn't see it as an middle finger at all

[Bladedrummer]

Really? I actually thought it was brilliant and it can even make sense in the lore. Shepard's so tired and worn out by all the choices that he reacts violently, upsetting the AI and making the cycle continue. But not forever as the info gathered is passed on and eventually helps future civilizations in ending the cycle. It works and it's humorous/clever, win-win. If you take it as an offense to the fans, you have too much time on your hands and need to find something better to do, sorry.

[Qeylis]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

If you don't like the ending, bad for you.

I for one am not going to let ten to fifteen minutes of mediocrity/confusion diminish the remaining 99% of the game that I have enjoyed a lot. People have such short memories.

Story is 40%, ending is 60%.  You can have a great story, if the ending is a turd, the story is a turd.  Matrix Trilogy is a good example.  

How many times have you said "I liked the first part of the movie, but the ending was horrible."  I know I have said it.  Most people have said it many times.  The ending is what people will remember.  The ending is THE reason you have been sitting in the theater for 2 hours.  You don't leave early, because you want to see the ending.  When the ending is bad, the movie is bad.  Why would games have different rules?

They don't.  The rules of story telling are the same in all mediums.  If you don't nail the ending, you haven't told a good story.  It doesn't matter if the part before the end is an hour, or 150 hours.  The end is why you are watching, or playing. 

[Jonathan Sud]

Definitely meme-worthy.

I've been bellowing it every chance I can

[iorveth1271]

It's kinda funny and pathetic how everyone just sees it as a giant FU and all of a sudden loses respect for Bioware because of it. You asked for a way to talk more to the Catalyst - you got it. You asked for a way to reject it, stick it's nose right into it's illogical nonsense and give it the finger - you got it. That such a thing wouldn't end in a sunshine butterfly ending was hardly a surprise and quite frankly, the fact that they even bothered to add that kind of ending was already more than they had to do. They could've also just sticked with their announcement "clarification and explanation of the endings" and been done with it. The endings are still not perfect, they still lack sense in many parts. But at least the 50 bucks aren't gone to waste anymore. I, at least, can play ME again.

[Fireclown2020]

Micah3sixty wrote...

What else can you expect? The full fleets of the Galaxy were being decimated in the full frontal assault on Earth that wasn't even comprised of all reapers as they were still dispersed on Thessia, Paladin, Tuchunka and elsewhere. The Catalyst/Crucible was the one chance Shepard had to end the cycles with his/her cycle. Refusal to use it just leaves the Galaxy doomed to repeat failure, for the Reapers "vastly outnumber" Galactic forces in strength and patience. Fortunately Liara created the time capsules to warn future cycles in time to prepare and likely construct the Crucible themselves.

I have a little problem with the full fleets getting taken out by the Reapers.  I took ONE out myself with a Heavy Weapon on Foot!  So.... umm................  Need I say more?

[Vet223]

IIRC, nothing even close to that happens against one of the over 2km long reaper capital ships. I do remember being on foot with a laser designator and a fleet at my disposal, and a reaper not going down after one volley, but they specifically mentioned that even that reaper was a compact version by comparison.  I'd put that one at under 500 feet.

Modifié par Vet223, 29 juin 2012 - 09:17 .

[Vormaerin]

Fireclown2020 wrote...

I have a little problem with the full fleets getting taken out by the Reapers.  I took ONE out myself with a Heavy Weapon on Foot!  So.... umm................  Need I say more?

You took out a Hades Cannon, which is not necessarily an actual reaper.  While it looks similar to a destroyer, its certainly a lot less of a problem to deal with than the actual destroyers.    Why is Anderson so blithely talking about taking out a bunch of Hades cannons when the reaper destroyer is considered a major threat if Hades cannons actually are destroyers?

Even if it *is* a destroyer (which I don't accept), the only things we see blown up in game are the destroyers, which are significantly weaker than the capital ships like Harbinger.

[Qeylis]

Fireclown2020 wrote...

I have a little problem with the full fleets getting taken out by the Reapers.  I took ONE out myself with a Heavy Weapon on Foot!  So.... umm................  Need I say more?

Appearently you do.  That has been said many times, and they don't seem to get it.  Yes, Reapers can die.  Yes, we can kill them.  Yes, we can kill enough to win.  

Stop believing what the Reapers tell you, its called propaganda (indoctrination in ME).  They've been brainwashed by three games telling them that Reapers are unbeatable even though they have seen them go down, they still believe the disinformation.  Every enemy ever has said that they could not be beaten.  Most have been proven wrong.

They've been indoctrinated.  Arguing with them wont change that.

[Vormaerin]

Qeylis wrote...

Appearently you do.  That has been said many times, and they don't seem to get it.  Yes, Reapers can die.  Yes, we can kill them.  Yes, we can kill enough to win.  

No one is listening to the reapers.  We are taking the word of the in game experts, who actually have information on reaper numbers that we don't have.

Every military expert in the galaxy could be indoctrinated, its true.   But what I see is the Reapers simultaneously crushing planets all across the galaxy.   Then I see Hackett saying that our combined fleet is not able to hold off the reapers around Earth .

How many reapers are there?  You don't know.  Without that information, you can't even remotely pretend that its possible to win a war of attrition against them.

The only evidence for the "We can win" scenario is various players saying "because I said so."

[Qeylis]

Vormaerin wrote...

Qeylis wrote...

Appearently you do.  That has been said many times, and they don't seem to get it.  Yes, Reapers can die.  Yes, we can kill them.  Yes, we can kill enough to win.  

No one is listening to the reapers.  We are taking the word of the in game experts, who actually have information on reaper numbers that we don't have.

Every military expert in the galaxy could be indoctrinated, its true.   But what I see is the Reapers simultaneously crushing planets all across the galaxy.   Then I see Hackett saying that our combined fleet is not able to hold off the reapers around Earth .

How many reapers are there?  You don't know.  Without that information, you can't even remotely pretend that its possible to win a war of attrition against them.

The only evidence for the "We can win" scenario is various players saying "because I said so."

And those "experts" have been around way too much Reaper tech.  You can't get that close for that long and not be indoctrinated.

Why am I still going on about this?  I'll tell you.  Its a story.  Anything can happen in a story.  Here's one thing that could have happened.

"This is Commander Shepard.  Fire on my position.  I repeat, fire on my position.  It is Reaper Command and Control.  It has been a pleasure to serve, Shepard out."

The entire allied fleet shifts fire to the Citidel.  The Reapers attempt to come between the fleet and their god, but they are too late.  The Citidel breaks into five disconected arms, one of which falls to Earth.

EDI says, "Jeff, the Reapers shields are down."
Joker says, "Gonna need a little more info EDI, which Reapers shields are down?"
EDI, "All of them."
Without further comment, Joker presses the Comm button and says, "Alliance fleet, the enemies shields are down.  The Reapers are vulnarable.  Fire now before that changes!"

Waves of fire race towards the Reapers, some of the smaller ones are destroyed before they even get a chance to fire back.  The two fleets converge, but this time, its the Reapers on the ropes.  They don't seem to know what to do.  They fire randomly, but not with the affect they used to have.

EDI says, "Jeff, the Reaper on the right is Harbringer.  I thought you might like some payback."
Joker says, "Oh, you are so right EDI, have I ever told you how much I love you?"
EDI says, "Yes Jeff, and you can tell me again, but after you kill that SOB."
Joker just laughs as the Thanix Cannon fires, and fires again.  Harbringer explodes.
Joker says, "I love you EDI."
EDI says, "I love you too, Jeff."

Another Dreadnaught dies, and another.  Soon, the sky is clear of Reapers, and the Reaper ground forces just stand there, confused.

Every planet thoughout the galaxy reports similar circumstances.  Heavy weapons were able to destroy all Reapers on the ground.  The Reapers made no attempt to escape, and their fire was ineffective.

From there, the endings are the same.

Modifié par Qeylis, 29 juin 2012 - 10:03 .

[Karimloo]

At least when Palpatine said it was awesome and it led to something even more heart wrenching and awesome.

This is just, ugh.

[Kathleen321]

Why is SO BE IT not a meme yet?

[Qeylis]

Karimloo wrote...

At least when Palpatine said it was awesome and it led to something even more heart wrenching and awesome.

This is just, ugh.

Well, I did say it was just one thing, and also, I'm not a pro writer.  But please, feel free to deny that its possible in the Mass Effect universe.  Everything I said could happen, and fits very well in the ME universe.  

Remember Sovereign.  His sheilds went down when one of his indoctrinated minions was killed.  What would happen when their god is killed?

[tobin1455]

ashwind wrote...

The most artistic element in ME3 EC is exactly this "So Be It"

For those who are not happy or shot the Catalyst out of anger: They will see it as a FU

For those who shot it just for fun would see it as humor.

For others, it could means victory without compromise, a true victory, etc.

Bravo.

Your 100% Right