287 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Here we go again.

This is what you're given. Watch the video. Make the moral choice.



Go on. Make the moral choice. I dare you. What is it? Come on. I thought you had the answers.

[Fauxnormal]

HagarIshay wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Murdering someone who wants to destroy everything and everyone in the galaxy? Yeah, that's right.

Put your defensiveness away, it's annoying.

Murdering innocent humans, torturing innocent humans, and commiting atrocities that the geth did for the REASONS the Geth did is not only unacceptable, it's on an entirely differant level .

For the tenth time, because it's war. Sometimes, in war, deaths happen. To make sure a threat will go away and never return? To save hundereds of thousands of others?

I would wipe out the Geth in a heartbeat, and have.

I'M annoying? Am I the one who can't have a conversation without throwing insults? If you can't have a civil conversation, don't start one. You don't want me to get defensive, then don't be offensive. Simple as that.

I consider why the geth did what they did as understanble. And I believe that if I can save lives, I will. You disagree, that's fine, it's your opinion. We'll both just have to agree to disagree, because we will never get anywhere otherwise. 

Child, settle down.

[wantedman dan]

Fauxnormal wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Reorte wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

Because technically they are. Genocide or Compromising freewill. Maybe I should reword it for you.

Any one of the choices could be viewed as morally repulsive.

Faced with no alternative you've done nothing immoral if you chose the least bad option. Of course there may be plenty of argument about which is the least bad option...

or, you could pick the option of self-determination, which was poorly done in its own right.

Please don't start whining about not getting to win through 'Refuse'.

The entire set up was that this was THE ONLY WAY to beat the Reapers. Sorry, love, your willpower isn't magic.

Please don't assume you know what my argument will be.

You only look foolish when I say something completely opposite your strawman.

[TheDarkShape]

Fauxnormal wrote...

TheDarkShape wrote...

Of course a paragon Shepard would choose Control, because a truly paragon Shepard wouldn't murder EDI and the Geth when there were other options available.

This is an unbeliveable naive and foolish statement.

Even a ParagonShep knows damn well that sacrifices will be made in war.

Sure, except that she doesn't have to make the sacrifices.  This isn't a "people have to die" scenario.  Two of the three endings get everybody out alive.

[ghost9191]

HagarIshay wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Murdering someone who wants to destroy everything and everyone in the galaxy? Yeah, that's right.

Put your defensiveness away, it's annoying.

Murdering innocent humans, torturing innocent humans, and commiting atrocities that the geth did for the REASONS the Geth did is not only unacceptable, it's on an entirely differant level .

For the tenth time, because it's war. Sometimes, in war, deaths happen. To make sure a threat will go away and never return? To save hundereds of thousands of others?

I would wipe out the Geth in a heartbeat, and have.

I'M annoying? Am I the one who can't have a conversation without throwing insults? If you can't have a civil conversation, don't start one. You don't want me to get defensive, then don't be offensive. Simple as that.

I consider why the geth did what they did as understanble. And I believe that if I can save lives, I will. You disagree, that's fine, it's your opinion. We'll both just have to agree to disagree, because we will never get anywhere otherwise. 

i agree that they did what they did in me3 with good reason, but the things they did in the side missions of me2 and the things they did in me1 were kinda on them

[Fauxnormal]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Here we go again.

This is what you're given. Watch the video. Make the moral choice.



Go on. Make the moral choice. I dare you. What is it? Come on. I thought you had the answers.

What in the name of hell does this have to do with anything?

[Subject9x]

Fauxnormal wrote...

Subject9x wrote...

the means by which each choice resolves the plot are different yes, but the result is the same;  the reaper threat is ended. Notice how the means are just as contrived as using the player characters willpower? 

"And no it's not. That's stupid, trite, cleche, overdone, boring, and predictable. "
How about the movie Independence Day? that was a great, forward-thinking movie! the humans when backed against a wall just uploaded a virus to the alien mothership! d'oy why didnt Mass Effect think of that? its brilliant! <facepalm>

You sound like one of those hipsters thats averse to something just because you want to be different.
Cliche's can be good or bad. Nothing is ever really 'overdone,' in fact certain tropes come in and out of favor throughtout history. The whole 'grrrr grim dark hero must die' at this moment is quite 'overdone' as well as 'drrr in order for our game to be 'deep' we need to have some sort of choice at da end'

That was a horrible movie.

I don't care about your opinion of me.

I do not want a cliched, Disney ending. I want an ending that makes me think. This one did.

yes, it was a horrible movie, and it saddens me that Mass Effect resorted to same thing.
<shrug> just going off what you type and word/phrase choice.

[cliched]
end of ME3 was as cliched as a game/movie could get, in fact that whole conversation with the catalyst is a poor mimic of the conversation with the architect from the Marticx, and that was bad too.

[Disney ending]
no one said anything about a disney ending, you're trying to change the frame of the argument posed.

It's hard for me to think about these choices when I feel like I'm being railroaded by the one asking the question. I can't take the outcome 'geth/edi die' seriously because of the hamfisting that synthesis is. Synthesis derails the other two choices almost exclusively. Deus Ex was a better attempt at modelling the problem of the singularity.

[AxStapleton]

ghost9191 wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

I can never consider Destroy as 'saving the many at the cost of a few' when there are two options that are 'save everyone'.

To those who who say Control is Risky, have you considered that others won't see it the same way. To me, a paragon Shepard choosing Control would be a good thing, I think he/she will stay as a benevolent guardian who doesn't interfere with free will. Just because you think otherwise doesn't mean Shepard going corrupt is the only possible outcome.

You are assuming that Shepard would be completely and utterly infallable over eons. With that kind of power, one mistake could end up being catastrophic. Don't get me wrong, it has real potential like the other options but you cannot disregard the risk just because he/she's paragon. How would a once organic mind cope with near infinite power and immortality? All choices have uplifting tones but, as far as I see it, they all have significant dark sides. This is supposed to be bittersweet after all.

damn it it is not shepard, it is a copy

So its an AI then? That couldn't possibly go wrong could it?

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Fauxnormal wrote...

....I'm not trying to make you do anything. Christ.

...And I already pointed out mistake. I wasn't talking to you in particular. I said I should have put that in a different paragraph to make it clear that I wasn't talking to you in particular.

[Fauxnormal]

wantedman dan wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Reorte wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

Because technically they are. Genocide or Compromising freewill. Maybe I should reword it for you.

Any one of the choices could be viewed as morally repulsive.

Faced with no alternative you've done nothing immoral if you chose the least bad option. Of course there may be plenty of argument about which is the least bad option...

or, you could pick the option of self-determination, which was poorly done in its own right.

Please don't start whining about not getting to win through 'Refuse'.

The entire set up was that this was THE ONLY WAY to beat the Reapers. Sorry, love, your willpower isn't magic.

Please don't assume you know what my argument will be.

You only look foolish when I say something completely opposite your strawman.

Well, if that was the case, I would. ^.^

[Fauxnormal]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

....I'm not trying to make you do anything. Christ.

...And I already pointed out mistake. I wasn't talking to you in particular. I said I should have put that in a different paragraph to make it clear that I wasn't talking to you in particular.

NO ONE is trying to MAKE you do anything. /End.

[wantedman dan]

Reorte wrote...

"Intentionally" implies intent - the reason you do something. The reason for choosing Destroy is not to kill the geth. That is not my intent. For something to be intentional it has to be the reason that I'm doing it. You can level the genocide accusation against me for the Reapers dying if you want.

Implication is not explication.

You are fully aware of the consequence and still choose such, ergo you are choosing genocide as a consequence of your actions, regardless of your intention.

[Fauxnormal]

Subject9x wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Subject9x wrote...

the means by which each choice resolves the plot are different yes, but the result is the same;  the reaper threat is ended. Notice how the means are just as contrived as using the player characters willpower? 

"And no it's not. That's stupid, trite, cleche, overdone, boring, and predictable. "
How about the movie Independence Day? that was a great, forward-thinking movie! the humans when backed against a wall just uploaded a virus to the alien mothership! d'oy why didnt Mass Effect think of that? its brilliant! <facepalm>

You sound like one of those hipsters thats averse to something just because you want to be different.
Cliche's can be good or bad. Nothing is ever really 'overdone,' in fact certain tropes come in and out of favor throughtout history. The whole 'grrrr grim dark hero must die' at this moment is quite 'overdone' as well as 'drrr in order for our game to be 'deep' we need to have some sort of choice at da end'

That was a horrible movie.

I don't care about your opinion of me.

I do not want a cliched, Disney ending. I want an ending that makes me think. This one did.

yes, it was a horrible movie, and it saddens me that Mass Effect resorted to same thing.
<shrug> just going off what you type and word/phrase choice.

[cliched]
end of ME3 was as cliched as a game/movie could get, in fact that whole conversation with the catalyst is a poor mimic of the conversation with the architect from the Marticx, and that was bad too.

[Disney ending]
no one said anything about a disney ending, you're trying to change the frame of the argument posed.

It's hard for me to think about these choices when I feel like I'm being railroaded by the one asking the question. I can't take the outcome 'geth/edi die' seriously because of the hamfisting that synthesis is. Synthesis derails the other two choices almost exclusively. Deus Ex was a better attempt at modelling the problem of the singularity.

Then don't play the game.

Bye.

[Fauxnormal]

TheDarkShape wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

TheDarkShape wrote...

Of course a paragon Shepard would choose Control, because a truly paragon Shepard wouldn't murder EDI and the Geth when there were other options available.

This is an unbeliveable naive and foolish statement.

Even a ParagonShep knows damn well that sacrifices will be made in war.

Sure, except that she doesn't have to make the sacrifices.  This isn't a "people have to die" scenario.  Two of the three endings get everybody out alive.

Yes. It is. For my Shepard, it sure as hell was. HE saw the Reapers being utterly destroyed as the only safe ending. And he was willing to accept that the Geth would die because of that choice.

it's war.

Sacrifices will be made.

[Reorte]

[quote]Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

You think he will but you don't know. It sure as hell sounds creepy in the EC. The very fact that you say "I think" rather than "I know" means you know there's a risk. If there was some cast-iron guarentee that Shepard wouldn't abuse Control or be changed by the Reapers then it would be the best choice but I can't think of anything that could be said that would give me that confidence.
[/quote]

There is also a risk that people will accidently create new synthetics and restart the war after Destroy. I think SHepard won't go insane. Do I need more reason? Control might sound creepy to you but it doesn't to me.[/quote]
Controlling Shepard certainly sounds like he's changed and is no longer exactly the same person.

There was never a convincing reason to believe that synthetics posed a really serious threat. Compare that to trying to take control over a bunch of Reapers with a track record of mind control.

You need more reason.

[Bladedrummer]

Do androids dream of electric sheep?

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

....I'm not trying to make you do anything. Christ.

...And I already pointed out mistake. I wasn't talking to you in particular. I said I should have put that in a different paragraph to make it clear that I wasn't talking to you in particular.

NO ONE is trying to MAKE you do anything. /End.

You wouldn't believe how many people hae tried.

[Reorte]

wantedman dan wrote...

Reorte wrote...

"Intentionally" implies intent - the reason you do something. The reason for choosing Destroy is not to kill the geth. That is not my intent. For something to be intentional it has to be the reason that I'm doing it. You can level the genocide accusation against me for the Reapers dying if you want.

Implication is not explication.

You are fully aware of the consequence and still choose such, ergo you are choosing genocide as a consequence of your actions, regardless of your intention.

Genocide requires it to be deliberate which requires intention according to the dictionary. The definition of intention? An aim or plan.

Modifié par Reorte, 29 juin 2012 - 07:52 .

[ghost9191]

AxStapleton wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

I can never consider Destroy as 'saving the many at the cost of a few' when there are two options that are 'save everyone'.

To those who who say Control is Risky, have you considered that others won't see it the same way. To me, a paragon Shepard choosing Control would be a good thing, I think he/she will stay as a benevolent guardian who doesn't interfere with free will. Just because you think otherwise doesn't mean Shepard going corrupt is the only possible outcome.

You are assuming that Shepard would be completely and utterly infallable over eons. With that kind of power, one mistake could end up being catastrophic. Don't get me wrong, it has real potential like the other options but you cannot disregard the risk just because he/she's paragon. How would a once organic mind cope with near infinite power and immortality? All choices have uplifting tones but, as far as I see it, they all have significant dark sides. This is supposed to be bittersweet after all.

damn it it is not shepard, it is a copy

So its an AI then? That couldn't possibly go wrong could it?

which is what i was saying, the first ai that was created for basically the same reason. to protect and solve the war problem turned on it;s creators and turned them into reapers, what's stopping the shepard catalyst from thinking the only way to protect them is to turn them into reaperz

[Ageless Face]

ghost9191 wrote...

but with control do you think there won't be deaths? i mean think of all the loved ones people lost to the reapers, hatred is a powerful motive. what if people try to rise up against them , or attack someone else. or gain control of the reapers like cerberus and so many others. to think that there would just be peace after everything the reapers did idk, and it seems to

There will be deaths in control. I have no illusions about that. The only choice that will save everyone is pretty much synthesis. 

I hate to say it, but I believe that the people will have to live with it. Yes, people will try and get revenge. They won't suceed. If there is an option for the reapers not to kill anyone in the process, I believe Shepard will do it. People will not be able to destroy (or control, for that matter) the reapers without a Crucible. Shepard will not lift anyone to the elevator for anyone to actually use the Crucible for the second time. So, after a while, people will learn to ajust. Maybe the first hundreds of years they will try. Eventually, the attempts will stop. At least I believe they will.

[Fauxnormal]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

....I'm not trying to make you do anything. Christ.

...And I already pointed out mistake. I wasn't talking to you in particular. I said I should have put that in a different paragraph to make it clear that I wasn't talking to you in particular.

NO ONE is trying to MAKE you do anything. /End.

You wouldn't believe how many people hae tried.

Offering an opinion is not trying to make you do anything. Lord above.

[wantedman dan]

Fauxnormal wrote...

Then don't play the game.

Bye.

I can't even imagine the amount of self-righteousness reverberating from the clatter of the keyboard coming from this post.

[Fauxnormal]

wantedman dan wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Then don't play the game.

Bye.

I can't even imagine the amount of self-righteousness reverberating from the clatter of the keyboard coming from this post.

Telling someone to not play a game they don't like?

Oh yes, I'm so self righteous.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Reorte wrote...
Controlling Shepard certainly sounds like he's changed and is no longer exactly the same person.

There was never a convincing reason to believe that synthetics posed a really serious threat. Compare that to trying to take control over a bunch of Reapers with a track record of mind control.

You need more reason.

You need more reason. I don't. So don't choose Control. Fair enough.

I believe that Shepard won't go insane. So I will choose Control.

[Subject9x]

Fauxnormal wrote...

Then don't play the game.

Bye.

correct! upon finishing the game I uninstalled it, removed Origin, and thus ends my time with biowares games. I'm on here for the week to see the reaction of the EC, and then its curtains.