459 réponses à ce sujet

[RShara]

Hopefully it'll help spread the word on why we're unhappy

[RShara]

Good morning, Thane-lovers!

[Renmiri1]

Morning

Back to the fight to #savethane

[RShara]

Yep, it's going on still. One day, everyone will read what we have to say with an open mind, and the world will end.

[RShara]

I vote the ST:TNG writer gets called in to fix Thane's story arc.

[Serenade22]

Wonderful job you did here R'Shara. I hope people read it, this way they can understand what are we asking for, and why. Thank you

And thank you to all the people who is supporting us, even if they never romanced Thane.

[Moira-chan]

good morning ^-^
i'm back^^
once again, thank you rshara for putting all our arguments together^^

[RShara]

No problem. I just want everyone to know our reasons for fighting for our beloved drell!

[Moira-chan]

and it was a great idea, really, rshara ^-^

[RShara]

Thanks Just a reminder for everyone to read the first post!

[paleobones]

I support equal and better treatment of Thane. I didn't romance him, I'm a Kaidan girl, but you got my support.

[Captain Kibosh]

At the risk of a pile-on, I actually think the right tone was struck in terms of the way Thane went out, especially in the context of a man expecting to die.  Full disclosure, my "canon" Shep was a Paragon male, but I have seen the romance footage on youtube.  But I assume a lot of the interactions run parallel, with some noteworthy exceptions, which I hope I'm able to catch for the most part.

The stark fact of the matter is that Thane is diminished by his disease.  Granted, this is bad for fans who want more romance and drell assassin kick-assery (love the sibilance), BUT it's GREAT in terms of the pathos it engenders for the realities of somebody suffering from a terminal illness.

When we first observe him in Huerta Memorial Hospital, he is shadowboxing in front of the window.  There is something patently absurd, saddening, yet endearing, all at the same time, about seeing him attempt to hold on to vestiges of his formal physical glory.  It is a feeble and oh-so mortal exercise (both literally and figuratively) to stave off his own mortality.  Pathos!

And before we get to feel TOO sorry for him (because what could be more patronizing then engendering someone's unilateral pity), he redeems himself by giving Kai Leng, the Illusive Man's cybernetically enhanced #1 man, a run for his money.  Even Shepard himself could only take him down with a squad of three, after a first failed two attempts.

I noticed the romance death scene doesn't use the line that Thane uses with friends-only Shep, but it still applies: "That assassin (Kai Leng) should be embarrassed.  A terminally ill drell managed to stop him from reaching his target."  Indeed.  A brief but glorious vindication of how bad ass Thane is but coupled with the very real limitations of his illness.  Pathos!

Finally, on his deathbed, a prayer (at least with Paragon Shepard) whose conclusion confuses our Shepard.  Thinking the focus of the prayer was for Thane, it turns out the invocation to Kalahira is for Shepard!  *Choke*

And if his death scene was a bit romance shy, well, it isn't about romantic passion at that moment.  His son is there.  His soulmate is there.  He's coming to the end of his life.  Given his spirituality, I don't think he's seeking burbling kisses and "Oh Thane!" from Femshep, and I think she knows that, too.  I think he's finding serenity in his faith.  Despite your misgivings, I do think he is at peace with himself, especially if he insisted the prayer (spoken by proxy through Kolyat and Shepard with the Paragon option) be for Shepard rather than himself, about to slip this mortal coil.  The VERY last act of a selfless man.  Dignity.  Spirituality.  And Pathos!

If you're arguing you want a better death, tell me how!  If you're telling me you want happily ever after, I'm not sure what to tell you.  I would have loved to have saved Mordin and Legion, too, in my canon playthrough, but life is dizzyingly, frighteningly, beautifully, ephemeral, and what more dramatic way could you have that played out through the cartharsis of tragic loss?

[Baa Baa]

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

Damn. Femshep really DID get shafted in the romance department. It sounds like romancing either Thane or Jacob leads pretty much nowhere. I didn't realize that they hadn't included much of anything for him, but Thane can't even unlock the 'Paramour' achievement. Looking at it, male shep has 5 romance options that femshep doesn't, while femshep only has 2 that male shep doesn't get.

WTF, Bioware?

Traynor and Garrus are gold.
Thane is better off dead, he was getting rusty and lets be honest he was never interesting.

Speak for yourself. I didn't romance Thane I thought it was an incredibly interesting character. He's one of my favorite characters in the game damnit.

[RShara]

Kibosh, thanks for the thought out post, but I have to ask, did you read the first and second posts, detailing exactly why the romance was unsatisfactory, and the methods in which we are disappointed, and different methods of saving him, along with screenshots and analyses?

FYI, you can save Mordin.  And neither Mordin nor Legion were LI's.

The gist of it is that you get just about the same conversation regardless if you romanced Thane or not.  A deathbed might not be the best place to say something like, "Shake it baby!" but if your loved one were dying, would you say....hold their hand?  Touch their cheek?  Say, "I love you" one last time?

Not according to Bioware!

Modifié par RShara, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:46 .

[Malanek]

I never romanced Thane but I thought his death scene was one of the more touching moments in the game. The real issue is they had too many characters in ME2 and most of these had much smaller roles in ME3. Out of all of them I thought Thane was possibly done the best along with Jack. It could have been a lot worse, Jacob could have been your favorite.

[RShara]

Thane's wasn't much better than Jacob's. If you read the first post, you'll see what I mean.

[Malanek]

RShara wrote...

Thane's wasn't much better than Jacob's. If you read the first post, you'll see what I mean.

I read your first post, just disagreed with it. Thanes story was sad, but to me sad is a lot, lot better than nothing. In fact sad is good in a computer game. He was introduced straight away as a character with a terminal illness and that is really what made him unique in a cluttered cast of characters. Having Shep come up with a cure doesn't fit with me, it is a job for a medical researcher not a soldier, I would have felt it was out of place. Thane went out saving a diplomat and helping intergalactic relations which was heroic in spite of the fact that one other character could have done the same thing.

Jacob felt like he was included just for the sake of including him. And for any femshep who actually romanced him he got another woman pregnant in the 6 or so months while shep was in lockdown. That seems really out of character for how he was presented in ME2.

[RShara]

Well Shepard isn't supposed to be the source of the cure, just the impetus. Get Mordin working on it for a few weeks or something.
Additionally, there is the transplant option that is never explored. If done at the end of LotSB, where the information is given, Thane could be healed enough to be able to drive KL away without killing himself.

And the fight between Thane and KL itself......seriously, why would a guy with a gun charge a guy with a sword?

Thane is just as out of character as Jacob. In ME2, if you romance him, he's afraid to die, and wants to live...and having something to live for (read: Shepard and his son), he is no longer calm and accepting of his death.

Yet in ME3, he has absolutely no fears or regrets about dying.

[Captain Kibosh]

[quote]RShara wrote...

Kibosh, thanks for the thought out post, but I have to ask, did you read the first and second posts, detailing exactly why the romance was unsatisfactory, and the methods in which we are disappointed, and different methods of saving him, along with screenshots and analyses?[/quote]

A good portion, but skimmed through some other parts, if I'm honest.  Did YOU read through the entiretly of my response?  =]Is there s SPECIFIC point that I made that's somehow rendered superfluous by some missed implication in your initial posts?  Do tell.

[quote]RShara wrote...
FYI, you can save Mordin.  And neither Mordin nor Legion were LI's.[/quote]
Only if you're meta-gaming, which is where a lot of you're objections to Thane's ending seem to be based on, comparing it to other possible results.  If I believe in a cure for the krogan genophage, Mordin has to make that sacrifice.  I didn't know that in my first playthrough, but regardless, if I'm sticking with my headcanon of curing the genophage, Mordin is going to stay dead.  Same situation with Legion re achieving sentience (as far as I know).
[/quote]

[quote]RShara wrote...
The gist of it is that you get just about the same conversation regardless if you romanced Thane or not.  A deathbed might not be the best place to say something like, "Shake it baby!" but if your loved one were dying, would you say....hold their hand?  Touch their cheek?  Say, "I love you" one last time?[/quote]

This point was acknowledged in my post...IF you read it.    It's a VERY spiritual moment, a time for discretion and reflection.

Ah, I forgot to mention that it's also more than possible Shepard is exhausted and in shock, unable to respond in more expected ways.  But if you believe in the five stages of grief--(1) DENIAL  (2) anger  (3) bargaining  (4) depression  (5) grief--then it's not entirely implausible that even a romantically involved femShep would act in this way.

Given how busy Shepard was saving the galaxy, I don't think she even could get to the second stage till Kai Leng gave her the opportunity to vent her anger.

HOWEVER, I do concede that it's EQUALLY possible that Femshep would reach out.  I guess it could have been a dialogue option, but then who would choose in the stage of grief that's denial, even if that's psychologically plausible?

[RShara]

Yep I read your post in its entirety. Here are your answers point by point then

Thane diminished by his disease: He didn't need to be. He could have had a lung transplant 6+ months ago.

Shadowboxing: I guess we will have to disagree on this. You see it as pathos. I see it as just weird and inexplicable. I mean...sure he wants to stay in shape as much as he can....by boxing in front of a window for half a second, then sitting down and never moving again? Mmmhmmm.

Redeeming himself with KL: Except that the fight was ridiculous. No one who knew anything about martial arts would have done half the things that happened. Why is Shep+Co just standing there, never shooting? Why does Thane impale himself on the sword? Look at the screenshots, there are TONS of places where things could have happened differently. Shepard is a trained soldier, there's no way she'd freeze, and there's no way she'd stand there doing nothing while the man she loved was in a knock-down fight.

Romance death scene: Yes a terminally ill drell kicking kL's butt just shows how pathetic and not-epic KL is.
Also, why is Thane still fully clothed? Shouldn't they have at least rolled up a sleeve for an IV? Maybe bandaged the damn wound? Did they even treat him, or just say, "Eh, it's a drell, who cares if he dies? We should concentrate on that human in the next room!"

The prayer being for Shepard: Yes, that is very nice, but again, absolutely identical for friendShep and romanceShep. Unsatisfying.

5 stages of grief: Would that prevent THANE from acknowledging the feelings between them? Wouldn't Thane hold her hand or ask for a kiss?
And if Shepard is going to (or about to go through) the 5 stages of grief, wouldn't there be some indication, rather than staring stonily? There is no denial. There is no anger. There is no bargaining, depression or grief. She just sits there and stares. And then walks outside to check on Kaidan/Ashley.

[English Cooper]

[quote]Captain Kibosh wrote...

[quote]RShara wrote...

Kibosh, thanks for the thought out post, but I have to ask, did you read the first and second posts, detailing exactly why the romance was unsatisfactory, and the methods in which we are disappointed, and different methods of saving him, along with screenshots and analyses?[/quote]

A good portion, but skimmed through some other parts, if I'm honest.  Did YOU read through the entiretly of my response?  =]Is there s SPECIFIC point that I made that's somehow rendered superfluous by some missed implication in your initial posts?  Do tell.

[quote]RShara wrote...
FYI, you can save Mordin.  And neither Mordin nor Legion were LI's.[/quote]
Only if you're meta-gaming, which is where a lot of you're objections to Thane's ending seem to be based on, comparing it to other possible results.  If I believe in a cure for the krogan genophage, Mordin has to make that sacrifice.  I didn't know that in my first playthrough, but regardless, if I'm sticking with my headcanon of curing the genophage, Mordin is going to stay dead.  Same situation with Legion re achieving sentience (as far as I know).
[/quote]

[quote]RShara wrote...
The gist of it is that you get just about the same conversation regardless if you romanced Thane or not.  A deathbed might not be the best place to say something like, "Shake it baby!" but if your loved one were dying, would you say....hold their hand?  Touch their cheek?  Say, "I love you" one last time?[/quote]

This point was acknowledged in my post...IF you read it.    It's a VERY spiritual moment, a time for discretion and reflection.

Ah, I forgot to mention that it's also more than possible Shepard is exhausted and in shock, unable to respond in more expected ways.  But if you believe in the five stages of grief--(1) DENIAL  (2) anger  (3) bargaining  (4) depression  (5) grief--then it's not entirely implausible that even a romantically involved femShep would act in this way.

Given how busy Shepard was saving the galaxy, I don't think she even could get to the second stage till Kai Leng gave her the opportunity to vent her anger.

HOWEVER, I do concede that it's EQUALLY possible that Femshep would reach out.  I guess it could have been a dialogue option, but then who would choose in the stage of grief that's denial, even if that's psychologically plausible?
[/quote]

Interesting read your posts

While I agree for the most part it is a lovely death-bed scene I dislike the arguement it is realistic to life, unfortunatly I've had in my line of work the unenviable task of tending to people who are dying and have witnessed more than one death.. needless to say it isn't as pretty, lovely, or graceful as Hollywood or any media would piant it to be.

So I never buy into the but.. but ,, but realism arguement (I know you didn't make it but many have and I haven't posted in a while here )

As for how FemShep who romanced Thane reacts well yes there are too many possibilites for them to put every possible human reaction in... However my gripe is they had Shepard Forcibly show emotion at the death of... Victus, Little Boy and others.. but there was no outlet for that with Thane.. No small little 'I'm so sorry Commander.. or He was a little scary but a good man Shepard I'm sorry"

At which the wheel would come up and Shepard could brush it off, or acknowledge her pain.. nor as any Auto-talking done... it is just forgotten, all other LI's who die get that outlet.. Shepards who romanced Thane did not, this is even more of a sore spot for Thane lovers as his death is tottally unavoidable.

[Moira-chan]

all we're asking for is equality and the promised equal treatment of every romance. i guess i don't have to explain that this was not the case in mass effect 3.

every other li has the possibility to be save. it doesn't matter if it's the VS, Liara (who actually cannot die in the entire serie), Tali, Garrus (survives if he survived me2), but the only who has to die was thane.

if it's not clear (i'm not quite sure about it, so i'll bold it): until now we have not even asked mostly for a cure of kepral!
We're just asking for a chance to interrupt the fight with Kai Leng and (under the right choices) to save him from being murdered of Kai Leng. There should be an option. Thane doesn't want to leave shepard at the end of me2. Now that he refound the love again he does not want to die anymore.
Sure, just the will of not to die won't cure him, we're dreamily, but a strong will could had stay him alive until Shepard gets more blood ( what the doctor in front of Thanes room admitted, but right afterwards it was irrelevant. strange how thing goes huh?)
And even if we cannot prevent thanes death, i would like to ask for more content for a romanced shepard, because Thane was not the Thane anymore we knew during the romance. he was shut down again. Sure it has been 6 months of arrest, but Thane is not that one who gets depressed from this unleast he knows that shepard will return. He would wait aand afterwards spend every minute left with shepard and Kolyat...but this was not a case. No, he totally blocked Shepard when she returned to huerta and as a romanced shep you can just say to him: i'm here to see the vs
That's cruel. Telling the man you love that you're in hospital for seeing a friend and not him. It seemed like shepard did not care about him anymore...just wants to have s** (in hospital) again and then leave him like that.
It was strange, that right after you kissed Thane in the enetrence area of huerta, you go into kaidans room, and when he asked shep about her realtionship to thane is just: crying for forgivness, because she does not want to betray him, lying on kiadan that there was never a realtion ship with thane or renegade also was not a nice thing.
(same goes here for garrus)

so, where did we are treaten equal? maybe i oversaw it, but i really did not noticed any romance content beside the word "siha"

[Captain Kibosh]

English Cooper wrote...

Interesting read your posts

While I agree for the most part it is a lovely death-bed scene I dislike the arguement it is realistic to life, unfortunatly I've had in my line of work the unenviable task of tending to people who are dying and have witnessed more than one death.. needless to say it isn't as pretty, lovely, or graceful as Hollywood or any media would piant it to be.

So I never buy into the but.. but ,, but realism arguement (I know you didn't make it but many have and I haven't posted in a while here )

As for how FemShep who romanced Thane reacts well yes there are too many possibilites for them to put every possible human reaction in... However my gripe is they had Shepard Forcibly show emotion at the death of... Victus, Little Boy and others.. but there was no outlet for that with Thane.. No small little 'I'm so sorry Commander.. or He was a little scary but a good man Shepard I'm sorry"

At which the wheel would come up and Shepard could brush it off, or acknowledge her pain.. nor as any Auto-talking done... it is just forgotten, all other LI's who die get that outlet.. Shepards who romanced Thane did not, this is even more of a sore spot for Thane lovers as his death is tottally unavoidable.

Thanks for the shout out!

Yes, in terms of discussing death scenes, my arguments are for what--IMHO--is plausible or effective in a narrative sense, for what provides dramatic catharsis.  I wouldn't presume to tell people in actual real life situations how to grieve!

In terms of depictions of death in popular culture, I quite agree that Hollywood et al tend to err on the side of the beautiful corpse.  I'd hazard not being in the health profession myself (although surrounded by family who are), I am spared witnessing the grimmer realities of death: trauma, disfigurement, emotional despair and panic, death rattles, the (ahem) voiding of waste matter, and all sorts of other personal indignities I'm sure I couldn't imagine.

As I had written to RShara, I concede that the Thane fans do deserve at least the option for some more emotional intimacy.  However, I don't think the way Thane was "handled" is as much of a debacle as is perceived by some.

It's all opinion though.

Let's hope you get the critical mass you need to get changes done or that you pique enough interest of one of the developers on the BW team.

[English Cooper]

Captain Kibosh wrote...

English Cooper wrote...

Interesting read your posts

While I agree for the most part it is a lovely death-bed scene I dislike the arguement it is realistic to life, unfortunatly I've had in my line of work the unenviable task of tending to people who are dying and have witnessed more than one death.. needless to say it isn't as pretty, lovely, or graceful as Hollywood or any media would piant it to be.

So I never buy into the but.. but ,, but realism arguement (I know you didn't make it but many have and I haven't posted in a while here )

As for how FemShep who romanced Thane reacts well yes there are too many possibilites for them to put every possible human reaction in... However my gripe is they had Shepard Forcibly show emotion at the death of... Victus, Little Boy and others.. but there was no outlet for that with Thane.. No small little 'I'm so sorry Commander.. or He was a little scary but a good man Shepard I'm sorry"

At which the wheel would come up and Shepard could brush it off, or acknowledge her pain.. nor as any Auto-talking done... it is just forgotten, all other LI's who die get that outlet.. Shepards who romanced Thane did not, this is even more of a sore spot for Thane lovers as his death is tottally unavoidable.

Thanks for the shout out!

Yes, in terms of discussing death scenes, my arguments are for what--IMHO--is plausible or effective in a narrative sense, for what provides dramatic catharsis.  I wouldn't presume to tell people in actual real life situations how to grieve!

In terms of depictions of death in popular culture, I quite agree that Hollywood et al tend to err on the side of the beautiful corpse.  I'd hazard not being in the health profession myself (although surrounded by family who are), I am spared witnessing the grimmer realities of death: trauma, disfigurement, emotional despair and panic, death rattles, the (ahem) voiding of waste matter, and all sorts of other personal indignities I'm sure I couldn't imagine.

As I had written to RShara, I concede that the Thane fans do deserve at least the option for some more emotional intimacy.  However, I don't think the way Thane was "handled" is as much of a debacle as is perceived by some.

It's all opinion though.

Let's hope you get the critical mass you need to get changes done or that you pique enough interest of one of the developers on the BW team.

And I agree, I don't speak for the #Save Thane Campaign nor do I speak for the Lovers of Thane.. as I myself am not one, however in one area I agree with them.. the Emotional content with a Romanced Thane was well almost none existant.. and I myself believe his death would have been easier for them to swallow if there had been that outlet for it.

hence why my arguements tend to be about the AFTER he dies and BEFORE the event.. The fact Thane is not cured is prefferable to me, the fact he went out saving a life is a decent way to go... (Yes they point out that it isn't important to the overall storyline.. but my feeling is Someone who sacrifices themselves to save one life is as much a hero as someone who sacrifices himself for 50 lives..  "He who saves one life, saves the world entire" again my belief and they may disagree which I respect

[Eliza]

English Cooper wrote...

hence why my arguements tend to be about the AFTER he dies and BEFORE the event.. The fact Thane is not cured is prefferable to me, the fact he went out saving a life is a decent way to go... (Yes they point out that it isn't important to the overall storyline.. but my feeling is Someone who sacrifices themselves to save one life is as much a hero as someone who sacrifices himself for 50 lives..  "He who saves one life, saves the world entire" again my belief and they may disagree which I respect

Well, I think you are right - sacrificing himself to save a life was not the badest option (although I would prefer the saving option without Thane dying). But why save this Salarian councellor (that can also be done by Kirrahe)? It would be more dramatically and make him a real hero if Thane sacrificed himself to save Shepard. That would also have an impact on Shepards emotional status, since she would have to deal not only with the fact that she cannot save everybody but has to feel guilty that someone sacrificed to save her.