459 réponses à ce sujet

[Moira-chan]

yeah, the weakening of his lung because of the weather is fine, that made totally sense^^
the bacteria is possible, but really rare, but possible...^^

[RShara]

Heh yeah well I can take unlikely. It's when it gets to highly improbably or downright dumb that I have a problem

I'll see if I can record the ship conv tomorrow, or youtube it or something *snicker*

[RShara]

holyDEATHTRAP wrote...

The outcome of Thane's character doesn't surprise me. I always figured they would kill him off in ME3. The I'm dying and trying to atone for my past was what I found really appealing about the character. This guy who knows he's reaching the end of his journey and wants to do right/set things right maybe even be remembered more than just as a dealer of death. I'm ok with his final fight, I thought he had a better ending than Shepherd got. Having said that though I was disappointed with the lack of interaction you got with him before his end, and was seriously tweaked about the lack of mention/discussion of his death afterwards. BW had alot of dropped balls in ME3. One of my favorites from ME2 the Quarian marine Reegar is only mentioned in an email as having died.

Thanks for understanding the biggest part of our gripes.  Thane dying....well...I can understand your POV though I don't agree with it.
I would have at the beginning, but after what happened in game, and getting trolled by Bioware, I'm pretty much to the point of CURE OR BUST lol

[BeanieBat]

@RShara and Moira - On the Normandy Thane does say that the disease is not communicable, even to other Drell. I agree that if the other Drell's lungs have not yet had any physiological alterations caused by the humid environment, then they would not be susceptible to the bacterial infection. But I think the bacteria could be spread between Drell. The infection would be present from the trachea, down into the alveolae deeper in the lungs, so bacteria could be spread through aerosols. This disease does seem to be based, even if loosely, on CF - and CF patients are segregated from each other so as not to cause spread of bacterial infections, which does happen. Often.

@Loony - Yeah, I agree. Thane appears to have a new disease in ME3 as incorrect folding of haemoglobin is certainly not something that is a logical progression of either a bacterial infection or physiological alterations to the Drell lungs. But that's a whole other essay... one that I have written though, if you are interested.

Edited for spelling.

Modifié par BeanieBat, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:38 .

[earendil87]

LoonySpectre wrote...

Dr. Chakwas' report actually explains why Thane died after being stabbed by Kai Leng: "any injury will dramatically impact Mr. Krios' body and cause rapid degeneration". But it's probably the only consistent thing between Thane's health condition in ME2 and ME3.

Well... actually I don't quite agree with that... depending on what she means by "degeneration" because in ME3 the doctor says that they could repair a lot of the trauma but the problem was that he lost a lot of blood and they didn't have supplies of drell blood. So probably they could have saved him if they had had blood... which gets me to another question: if his problem in ME3 was that the proteins couldn't carry the oxygen why wasn't he given transfusions before? sounds to me like a very simple way to deal with the malfuntional proteins in his blood...

Modifié par earendil87, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:40 .

[RShara]

Because in ME3, it's INCURABLITIS!

[Moira-chan]

thanks for the explanaiton beanie, i could not get it into content anyhow, i could accept the humid weather for the binding capacity of his lunge, but cannot bring the bacteria to it, but i guess that makes sense...
but really to summe it up: these are supa nova bacteria who have characteristivs of viren and somehow a bit of cancer because of mutating the dna... right?
poor thane, he should not even be able to breath anyway...

[BeanieBat]

Well, if we are trying to explain the disease between ME2 and ME3, then yeah, I guess you're right - the bacteria are magic space bacteria that are capable of doing the impossible! Incorrect folding of haemoglobin certainly implies a genetic mutation which cannot be caused by bacteria as we know them anyway!
And yeah, if he had all that is said in ME2 and ME3, he definitely wouldn't be standing, let alone shadow boxing!

I really, truly believe that his disease was changed from ME2 to ME3 though, I don't think it was even meant to be a progression of the disease, just a complete switch - I mean, the lungs aren't even mentioned in ME3!!

[RShara]

Nope, it was just changed because they can't keep track of Thane, period. Not his personality, nor his illness.

[BeanieBat]

RShara wrote...

Nope, it was just changed because they can't keep track of Thane, period. Not his personality, nor his illness.

Agreed.  So disappointing.

[earendil87]

Y'know, it's interesting to talk about his sickness and all the mistakes and everything among biologists but I don't think it's that important for the game. Obviously I would have liked it to be more coherent but I think that what we felt when hearing all the weird symptoms is the same as when a physicist hears all the stuff about faster-than-light travel or the explanation of the mass effect. The writers don't know about science, they should have documented better but what is done is done and they're not going to change it, it's just more space magic to the game.

I personally find it much funnier to try to match all the symptoms in a new drell fatal disease and try to give an explanation with my knowledge of molecular biology, just for fun. And if I can't match them I'll just think "it's just a sci-fi game, a little more of space magic won't ruin it", after all I'm sure most of the people didn't even notice. Moira and Beanie did a great job with their medical reports but don't get crazy with that, there are much worse things to fix in the game.

I hope I didn't offend anybody, it's not my intention at all. I just want to bring some positivism to all this mess

[Jonata]

I'm all to give some respect to the much more developed ME2 Characters, but I think we need to focus on the DLC as a big one, not focusing on just one character. We need to use all the resources we use to create flowcharts, suppor threads and poll in one, big, massive request/petition to bring back the ME2 characters.

There are people ridicously better developed than Liara/VS in ME2, like Jack, Thane or even Grunt, and to put them aside was such an emotional suicide by BioWare that I still can't believe it. I like ME3, but those characters are like ghosts, always hiding outside my view whispering me that I am missing something.

The crew of the Lost is my favourite bunch of lost souls I've ever seen, it's such a mountain of lost potential that BioWare NEEDS to do something. They earned it going thru that Omega 4 Relay.

[coldwetn0se]

Jonata wrote...

I'm all to give some respect to the much more developed ME2 Characters, but I think we need to focus on the DLC as a big one, not focusing on just one character. We need to use all the resources we use to create flowcharts, suppor threads and poll in one, big, massive request/petition to bring back the ME2 characters.

There are people ridicously better developed than Liara/VS in ME2, like Jack, Thane or even Grunt, and to put them aside was such an emotional suicide by BioWare that I still can't believe it. I like ME3, but those characters are like ghosts, always hiding outside my view whispering me that I am missing something.

The crew of the Lost is my favourite bunch of lost souls I've ever seen, it's such a mountain of lost potential that BioWare NEEDS to do something. They earned it going thru that Omega 4 Relay.

Actually, I believe most of us agree full heartily with this.  That is why one of the Thanemancers put together the Added Romance Content/DLC thread to express this very thing.  They ALL need more. 

This thread was mostly meant to be a "one stop shopping" place for those that wished to understand Thane fans problems with the way his character was treated in me3.  Some have included their wishes for what could be done for Thanes character via DLC, but again, that doesn't suggest that they wish for the rest of the ME2 squaddies to be left out.  I would soooo love to see more Jack, Samara, Miranda and Jacob (yes; even good guy Jacob....they butchered a romanced Jacob) along with Thane.

Happy gaming!

[RShara]

Yep, in the very first post I state that we really would prefer to see a DLC that addresses ALL of the neglected romances, not just Thane. I fully support more time with Miranda, Jack, poor JACOB, as well as Thane. And to a lesser degree, Garrus, Tali, the VS, and even Liara. But to me, the neglected ones should come first.

So in order:

Jacob
Thane
Jack
Miranda
Tali/Garrus/VS
Liara

[BeanieBat]

earendil87 wrote...

Y'know, it's interesting to talk about his sickness and all the mistakes and everything among biologists but I don't think it's that important for the game. Obviously I would have liked it to be more coherent but I think that what we felt when hearing all the weird symptoms is the same as when a physicist hears all the stuff about faster-than-light travel or the explanation of the mass effect. The writers don't know about science, they should have documented better but what is done is done and they're not going to change it, it's just more space magic to the game.

I personally find it much funnier to try to match all the symptoms in a new drell fatal disease and try to give an explanation with my knowledge of molecular biology, just for fun. And if I can't match them I'll just think "it's just a sci-fi game, a little more of space magic won't ruin it", after all I'm sure most of the people didn't even notice. Moira and Beanie did a great job with their medical reports but don't get crazy with that, there are much worse things to fix in the game.

I hope I didn't offend anybody, it's not my intention at all. I just want to bring some positivism to all this mess

I think Thane's disease is important for the game.  BioWare made it important when they decided it was all you were going to get to talk to Thane about and it was all Thane was going to be about.  I understand that the writers don't know about science, and that's why the facts presented to us in ME2 didn't bother me too much.  Like you said, it was fun to try and piece together the facts to figure out a logical explanation.  But in ME3, to completely change the disease... I mean,  they neglected to even mention the lungs at all and instead implied that Kepral's Syndrome was actually a blood disease.  If they had written it in a way that this were a progression of Kepral's, then fair enough - space magic would be the answer.  But to me it seems like they negated the facts of Kepral's in ME2.  And it's not a case of just not documenting it better - they had ME2 right there all they had to do was pop it in.  So, to me, this just emphasises the lack of input Thane got for ME3. 

I don't think we are going crazy with this.  We are just having a discussion.  We're not asking for BioWare to go back and change the disease in ME3, we're simply showing another aspect of Thane's character that was altered between ME2 and ME3.

I hope that makes sense... I'm pretty tired right now...

[RShara]

Makes sense to me!

[Moira-chan]

yeah it makes sense beanie, and i've answered on this thinkin g on the medical discussion earenedil xD
sure they are no scientist and sure, his disease is not the only thing thats a bit...weird...but really i could take it with his kepral, it made sense, even abcterial was difficulter to put it in there but it was possible, so i was alright with it, but i met a few non scientist who have been irritated about it.
bioware really tried to make it as logica as possible and this is what made it really easy to focus on such detais...because they've tried to make it logical... then you aspected to have it even more logical...

[LoonySpectre]

A strange speculation... maybe, they had budget constraints and just couldn't pay Keythe Farley, Courtenay Taylor, Adam Lazarre-White and other ME2-specific actors (except Miranda's) to record more lines?

[earendil87]

Makes sense to me too and I agree with what you say, and of course I know it's just chatter now but sometimes I've had the feeling that people get really upset about his illness when it's in a game founded over the "space magic" concept. Its inconsistency bothers me as much as you, I can assure you that, but if you try to be as positive as I am maybe the new ME3 symptoms where they forgot the lungs and everything could even make some sense (and give it a lot of imagination):

Maybe the Kepral's is caused by a genetic disease where some drells have different folded haemoglobin which makes more inefficient for carrying oxygen even when healthy. Maybe when drells are exposed to a humid environment their lungs suffer segregating a lot of mocus and also exposing them to bacterial infections. Both things lower the caption of oxygen, and as they also have mutated proteins they suffer a great lack of oxygen that worsens their condition. The bacteria become more aggressive and invade and degenerate the lungs and other tissues. The solutions would be:

- Antibiotics to combat the bacterial infection.
- Medigel for the lungs to repair the tissue if they are not too damaged.
- Organ transplant: for the degenerated organs.
- Blood transfusion to add "good" haemoglobin to the system and improve the captation of oxygen.
- Genetic engineering program to remove or fix the missfolded haemoglobin gene from all drells and improve their oxygen captation to avoid the degeneration of their tissues when affected by Kepral's.

Yeah, I know I maybe didn't touch all the symptoms and some things don't match but I wrote this very quickly and I'm too lazy right now to check everything XD I just wanted to show you an example of what I said on my last post. Feel free to correct me or discuss my vision of the disease if you want, it could be fun

Edit for typos

Modifié par earendil87, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:42 .

[RShara]

Kepral's Syndrome was definitely described as being bacterial in ME2. I guess you could say susceptibility to Kepral's is sort of hereditary--the drell's evolutionary adaptation to their home planet gives them a great weakness to humidity.

I'm just going to pretend the whole hemoglobin conversation never happened, since it just doesn't make any sense in any way, shape, or form.

[RShara]

LoonySpectre wrote...

A strange speculation... maybe, they had budget constraints and just couldn't pay Keythe Farley, Courtenay Taylor, Adam Lazarre-White and other ME2-specific actors (except Miranda's) to record more lines?

Considering how cheap and rushed the rest of the game was, this wouldn't surprise me at all.

[BeanieBat]

Yeah, sure we can try and come up with hypotheses as to why Kepral's could be a lung and blood disease... but I just don't get the impression from ME3 that that is in fact what Kepral's Syndrome is. And that is simply where I have a problem with it.

But going along with that... I agree that the incorrect folding of haemoglobin would be a genetic disorder. And yes, my theory is that the humid environment causes a build up or mucus in the lungs making them prone to bacterial infections, which can then invade and cause tissue damage as time progresses. So you're solutions fit (except that the bacteria have been noted as being resistant to a few antibiotics, so that may no longer be an option depending on what other antibiotics would be available).

But... if the haemoglobin issue was a genetic disorder, then it is not something that would be a progression of Kepral's, it's something that would be there from the beginning and symptoms would be evident from an early age. So why wasn't it mentioned in ME2? Also, that would have nothing to do with the humid environment. And a genetic disorder is unlikely to be present in every Drell. So if Thane did have that condition, then in my opinion it would not actually be Kepral's Syndrome, but instead a second disease that has led to a faster deterioration of Thane's health, in combination with Kepral's Syndrome.

And if Thane did have a bacterial lung infection and incorrect folding of haemoglobin, then this would lower oxygen transport across the lungs to the blood and lower the binding capacity of oxygen in the blood, respectively. If this were the case, then I'd expect him to be in a much worse condition than he is in. Even in ME2. Imagine combining Cystic Fibrosis with Sickle Cell anaemia...

[earendil87]

The hypothesis are just for fun, it's pretty obvious that the writers never defined the Kepral's syndrome, not even in ME2. It's that simple. It's like when people thought all the complicated and mysterious things about the ending and the indoctrination theory and with the EC we just found that they didn't mean any of that. It was very simple, they made and incomplete crappy ending and then fixed it, non philosophy intended.

And yeah, I meant that the genetic disorder would eventually produce the Kepral's. Maybe the drells without this problem would be able to confront the lung infections much better than the ones with the genetic problem, who will eventually evolve to Kepral's syndrome. The misfolded haemoglobin shouldn't be a problem with fully functional lungs but as they degenerate the problem appears.

And it's true that if this is the explanation he should have been much worse from ME2... or not. Maybe he has the "bad haemoglobin" gene in heterocygosis, or maybe the infection is not as dramatic as we are thinking and it's just a very slow degeneration of the tissue...

[Emeraldfern]

The budget constrains could be plausible, however, Keythe Farley's case is different from both Courtenay Taylor's and Adam Lazarre-White's, since Farley did not only voice Thane, but also iirc, Adrien Victus.

[Edit] Spell derp.

Modifié par Emeraldfern, 15 juillet 2012 - 11:30 .

[BeanieBat]

I'm sorry, but the implications from the game just don't fit that explanation for me.

It's a bacterial infection in ME2, so if we are going with our theory of the lungs disease, then the mucus had built up in the lung enough to inhibit mucociliary clearance and allowed bacterial colonisation. The build up of mucus is enough to limit oxygen transfer across the lungs. In addition, it is stated that Thane's lung capacity is down to 42% (if I remember correctly) and there are lesions present, implying the infection has progressed to cause some tissue damage. This would further limit oxygen transfer. So, in combination with the haemoglobin issue (even if it is a mild one, as you suggest), it still doesn't seem feasible to me that he is running around by Shepard's side to take down the Collector's in ME2.

Also, the haemoglobin issue, whether it is mild or severe, would at least remain consistent - it itself wouldn't progress as time goes on. So it doesn't make sense that the focus of his disease in ME3 focuses on this aspect, when it's really only the bacterial infection/lung damage that can be worsening.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. And yes, you can say that the writer's don't know and this is what they must have meant, but that leaves nothing to discuss really...

(It's hard to portray tone with written text, so just in case I would like to add that I am in no way annoyed/upset or anything like that and I hope it doesn't seem like I am)