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[LoonySpectre]

Yes, and two more outcomes:
{Thane grabs Udina by the head, but Udina struggles. Thane has trouble.}
{Ash turns to aim at Thane and Shepard tackles her.}
{Udina pulls a gun in the struggle. It goes off, shooting through Thane and wounding the asari Councilor.}
{Thane looks *pissed*. He nails Udina in the throat.}
{Udina falls to the ground, dying. Thane feels his chest and his hand comes away bloody. He sinks. Shepard is still on Ash.}
{Udina dies. Ash stops struggling, and he and Ash get to their feet.}
And:
{Shepard turns his attention to Ash's body. He kneels next to it.}
{Behind them, Udina's not dead yet. He gets to his knees, drawing a pistol.}
{Thane interposes himself as Udina shoots. The bullet goes through Thane and hits the asari Councilor.}
{Thane stumbles back and Shepard gets a clear shot.}

[RShara]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mayrabgood wrote...

If Thane's romance had been a real romance with conversations, private scene, and even a mission and then had died either through Kepral's or getting injured later on in the game, I would have been fine with it.

But he was introduced into the game very early on and killed off before half of the game was even over. It felt like they just wanted to get his character done and over with as soon as possible.

You could say the same of Mordin, but the absurdity would just be more apparent.

You can save Mordin.

[SerenityRebirth]

As someone who had romanced Thane at one point, I always wondered what it would be like for the endings to have (for those who romanced him), this elusive moment where his voice comes over and meeting him in the ocean would subtly whisper in the background. That is how my characters game finished in my head cannon.

[Moira-chan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

RShara wrote...


2. Thane was not at peace with his death. He was not prepared to die.

He doesn't want to die, because he's found something to live for again, but that doesn't change coming to terms with it.

He was not destined to die:

He was. It's rather a large part of his character arc.

Romanced Thane's character completely reverses his stance from ME2. Character reversal for no reason is not good writing.

It's only a reversal if you project a specific interpretation onto him.

no he has not, i can post my analysation, where i cut of all the argumentations. i'm biologist and really have the knowledge, even right know in 21.th centuary we would have been able to save him. do you wanna read it? i can let you read it.

[blue water]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

firel wrote...


Coming to Shepard's cabin, punching things in distress and crying over the fact that he's scared to die doesn't strike me as "graceful" over his mortality.

Congratulations to you, then, who apparently defines 'graceful' as 'stoic.'

Here's the disconnect. I didn't romance Thane, so I didn't have a lot of the dialogue referenced in this thread.  I do know enough about how ME works that I willing to accept that these conversation occurred.  Call that a leap of faith, whatever, I accept it.  I feel I have closure with my LI, even a possible future.  Is it so wrong to ask that the former be granted to others even if the latter is not possible?

[RShara]

LoonySpectre wrote...

Yes, and two more outcomes:
{Thane grabs Udina by the head, but Udina struggles. Thane has trouble.}
{Ash turns to aim at Thane and Shepard tackles her.}
{Udina pulls a gun in the struggle. It goes off, shooting through Thane and wounding the asari Councilor.}
{Thane looks *pissed*. He nails Udina in the throat.}
{Udina falls to the ground, dying. Thane feels his chest and his hand comes away bloody. He sinks. Shepard is still on Ash.}
{Udina dies. Ash stops struggling, and he and Ash get to their feet.}
And:
{Shepard turns his attention to Ash's body. He kneels next to it.}
{Behind them, Udina's not dead yet. He gets to his knees, drawing a pistol.}
{Thane interposes himself as Udina shoots. The bullet goes through Thane and hits the asari Councilor.}
{Thane stumbles back and Shepard gets a clear shot.}

Yes, there were 3 options.  You stated that the leaked script showed he dies.  I was showing one where he doesn't.  All we're asking for is to have that option restored.

[RShara]

blue water wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

firel wrote...


Coming to Shepard's cabin, punching things in distress and crying over the fact that he's scared to die doesn't strike me as "graceful" over his mortality.

Congratulations to you, then, who apparently defines 'graceful' as 'stoic.'

Here's the disconnect. I didn't romance Thane, so I didn't have a lot of the dialogue referenced in this thread.  I do know enough about how ME works that I willing to accept that these conversation occurred.  Call that a leap of faith, whatever, I accept it.  I feel I have closure with my LI, even a possible future.  Is it so wrong to ask that the former be granted to others even if the latter is not possible?

It's not wrong at all!  Thank you for being so fair and open minded!

[LoonySpectre]

Sadly, the following dialogue (reconstructed from the same script) shows that Thane indeed dies after clearly taking out Udina. But that scene at least acknowledges Thane/FShep romance.

{With a little difficulty.] Congratulations are in order. The Council has not been this united since... uhh.
{Thane sinks to his knees. Shepard kneels by him.}
What's wrong?
Kepral's. It's aggravated by... exertion.
It's all right. Just catch your breath.
I'm sorry, siha. I ran all the way here... couldn't let you fail. Thought I was being a hero.
Is there anything I can do?
Doubtful. Oxygen transfer proteins aren't working. Your equivalent would be hemo--
{A coughing fit wracks Thane. Shepard helps out so he's lying in Shepard's arms.}
--hemoglobin. Can't get oxygen from the air. Brain is starving.
I know all the experts on the Citadel. Ran diagnostics two weeks ago. I asked what they recommended at this late stage.
They said, "spend time with your family."
Do you want me to see if I can find Kolyat for you?
[Shakes head.] Don't go.
Did I give you permission to die on me?
No. But I have taken lives tonight to reach you. There is something I must do.
Don't make me laugh... breathing... is hard enough.
Looks like I'm all you've got.
I can think of no one better, siha.
Your memory is not like mine, but perhaps you can keep me in it for a little while.
For someone who just saved the Citadel Council, you seem to think people will forget you pretty fast.
Fame was the last thing on my mind. You were the first. Without you... well.
The moment will be soon. [Coughing fit.] I shouldn't have run. You did not even need me.
You fought for something noble, Thane. As last moments go, it's not a bad one.
No... there is one I would prefer.
[Thane memory flashback.] Fist slams the table. Shame at my cowardice, my fear. Atonement means nothing.
Her hand touches mine. Her lips part and I tremble. "Thane, be alive with me tonight."
[His body relaxes. Shepard wipes her eyes. Maybe we see a tear, maybe we don't. The music tells us all we need to know.]
Goodbye, Thane. Meet you across the sea.

[nikola8]

One of my FemSheps on one of my playthroughs romanced Thane. It was one of the best LIs in the game, and I actually thought that they did it just right in both ME2 and ME3. Adding anything to what they already have would detract.

[firel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
He was. It's rather a large part of his character arc.

His writer from ME2 says that he didn't know what direction they were going to take Thane. Not to mention Bioware supported a cure Thane campaign and teased about 3 different cures. He was not destined to die in the least.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Romanced Thane's character completely reverses his stance from ME2. Character reversal for no reason is not good writing.

It's only a reversal if you project a specific interpretation onto him.

You realise we could say the same thing to you? People who actually bother to watch his romance scene and know what they're talking about agree that romanced Thane was retconned in ME3.

Modifié par firel, 29 juin 2012 - 08:58 .

[RShara]

LoonySpectre wrote...

Sadly, the following dialogue
(reconstructed from the same script) shows that Thane indeed dies after
clearly taking out Udina. But that scene at least acknowledges
Thane/FShep romance.

{With a little difficulty.] Congratulations are in order. The Council has not been this united since... uhh.
{Thane sinks to his knees. Shepard kneels by him.}
What's wrong?
Kepral's. It's aggravated by... exertion.
It's all right. Just catch your breath.
I'm sorry, siha. I ran all the way here... couldn't let you fail. Thought I was being a hero.
Is there anything I can do?
Doubtful. Oxygen transfer proteins aren't working. Your equivalent would be hemo--
{A coughing fit wracks Thane. Shepard helps out so he's lying in Shepard's arms.}
--hemoglobin. Can't get oxygen from the air. Brain is starving.
I know all the experts on the Citadel. Ran diagnostics two weeks ago. I asked what they recommended at this late stage.
They said, "spend time with your family."
Do you want me to see if I can find Kolyat for you?
[Shakes head.] Don't go.
Did I give you permission to die on me?
No. But I have taken lives tonight to reach you. There is something I must do.
Don't make me laugh... breathing... is hard enough.
Looks like I'm all you've got.
I can think of no one better, siha.
Your memory is not like mine, but perhaps you can keep me in it for a little while.
For someone who just saved the Citadel Council, you seem to think people will forget you pretty fast.
Fame was the last thing on my mind. You were the first. Without you... well.
The moment will be soon. [Coughing fit.] I shouldn't have run. You did not even need me.
You fought for something noble, Thane. As last moments go, it's not a bad one.
No... there is one I would prefer.
[Thane memory flashback.] Fist slams the table. Shame at my cowardice, my fear. Atonement means nothing.
Her hand touches mine. Her lips part and I tremble. "Thane, be alive with me tonight."
[His body relaxes. Shepard wipes her eyes. Maybe we see a tear, maybe we don't. The music tells us all we need to know.]
Goodbye, Thane. Meet you across the sea.

Well if Thane lives, then there wouldn't be a big chunk of this dialogue, right?  Yes, slightly over-optimistic, and stretching of me, what what else can I do?

nikola8 wrote...

One of my FemSheps on one of my playthroughs romanced Thane. It was one of the best LIs in the game, and I actually thought that they did it just right in both ME2 and ME3. Adding anything to what they already have would detract.

I'm glad that you found it fulfilling   We're asking for *optional* additions, that you don't have to see/play if you don't want to.

[Dean_the_Young]

firel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

firel wrote...


Coming to Shepard's cabin, punching things in distress and crying over the fact that he's scared to die doesn't strike me as "graceful" over his mortality.

Congratulations to you, then, who apparently defines 'graceful' as 'stoic.'

And congradulations to you as well, on your fantastic 10 word retort that amounts to nothing and misses the point.

It directly addresses the point: you have a different idea of what entails grace. I could have gone on about exageration on your part, but it was irrelevant.

Dealing with an emotional, difficult issue in privacy is something I consider graceful.

[LanceSolous13]

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

Damn. Femshep really DID get shafted in the romance department. It sounds like romancing either Thane or Jacob leads pretty much nowhere. I didn't realize that they hadn't included much of anything for him, but Thane can't even unlock the 'Paramour' achievement. Looking at it, male shep has 5 romance options that femshep doesn't, while femshep only has 2 that male shep doesn't get.

WTF, Bioware?

Traynor and Garrus are gold.
Thane is better off dead, he was getting rusty and lets be honest he was never interesting.

I completely diagree. He was very different from several of the other characters. He was calm and dared not show large emotion, one thing that makes his ME2 Romance Scene rather jarring in a good character development way, and he is actually religious and brings insight into more lore and ideas from a section of Mass Effect we can't get any where else. He was an LI for my Fem!Shep and a good friend for my Bro!Shep, going as far as joining him and Miri during every step of the Suicide Mission.

[RShara]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

firel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

firel wrote...


Coming to Shepard's cabin, punching things in distress and crying over the fact that he's scared to die doesn't strike me as "graceful" over his mortality.

Congratulations to you, then, who apparently defines 'graceful' as 'stoic.'

And congradulations to you as well, on your fantastic 10 word retort that amounts to nothing and misses the point.

It directly addresses the point: you have a different idea of what entails grace. I could have gone on about exageration on your part, but it was irrelevant.

Dealing with an emotional, difficult issue in privacy is something I consider graceful.

There's a difference between grace, and what we're talking about here, I think is the problem.

In ME2, Thane started out as passively suicidal. He didn't care if he lived or died.
By the end, a romanced Thane really didn't want to die any more. He was afraid of it.

In ME3, Thane is suddenly chill and relaxed about dying again.

The reversal is going from actively seeking death, to fearing it, to not fearing it and accepting it.

If there had been an explanation, and a role-play/active participation in him returning to acceptance, then it could have been in character.  But there is no explanation, no reason, no insight into this reversal, therefore, it is sudden and illogical.

Modifié par RShara, 29 juin 2012 - 09:05 .

[Moira-chan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

firel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

firel wrote...


Coming to Shepard's cabin, punching things in distress and crying over the fact that he's scared to die doesn't strike me as "graceful" over his mortality.

Congratulations to you, then, who apparently defines 'graceful' as 'stoic.'

And congradulations to you as well, on your fantastic 10 word retort that amounts to nothing and misses the point.

It directly addresses the point: you have a different idea of what entails grace. I could have gone on about exageration on your part, but it was irrelevant.

Dealing with an emotional, difficult issue in privacy is something I consider graceful.

i ask you once again, because i guess you dont see it. i wrote a scientific analysation that shows, that thane was easily saved and never had to die...even with kepral...maybe later, but not from this injure, if you want to argue on this point with me, than i can give it to you and we can discuss it, i would love to hear your argument.
so: do you want it? do you want to read it out of a biologist/medcine view?

[Dean_the_Young]

RShara wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

RShara wrote...


2. Thane was not at peace with his death. He was not prepared to die.

He doesn't want to die, because he's found something to live for again, but that doesn't change coming to terms with it.

He was not destined to die:

He was. It's rather a large part of his character arc.

Romanced Thane's character completely reverses his stance from ME2. Character reversal for no reason is not good writing.

It's only a reversal if you project a specific interpretation onto him.

Please quote in context

I quoted the context I felt with relevance.

Just before the suicide mission, he comes to Shepard's cabin and confesses how he no longer wants to die. He is afraid of dying, and wants to live. Yet in ME3 when you meet him at the hospital, he is suddenly okay with dying, again, as if all of the development done in ME2 never
happened. [u]

Not wanting to die is not the same as not coming to terms with it.

Thane was never "destined" to die. The writers in ME2 said they weren't sure
where they were going to take the character. He could have been cured or not at that point.

Not being sure where exactly you take a character doesn't mean a general trajectory isn't laid out.

Bioware featured several "Cure Thane" movements and used his image as the poster boy for some of the ME3 promotionals. In the leaked script, there were several options where Thane takes a bullet during the Coup, to stop Udina. In one of the options, he pulls off "A slick move" and stops Udina, and just looks "out of breath."

And in various versions of the Kai Leng encounter, we might have been faced with a Virmire Survivor vs. Liara delimma, and the Prothean was the Catalyst. Lots of things get proposed but cut for various reasons. They are irrelevant for what the overall arc is.

[Dean_the_Young]

firel wrote...

You realise we could say the same thing to you?

I do, which is why I entered this thread with a 'I disagree' as opposed to a 'you're wrong.'

People who actually bother to watch his romance scene and know what they're talking about agree that romanced Thane was retconned in ME3.

This amounts to a No True Scotsman fallacy. Care to try again?

[Dean_the_Young]

RShara wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mayrabgood wrote...

If Thane's romance had been a real romance with conversations, private scene, and even a mission and then had died either through Kepral's or getting injured later on in the game, I would have been fine with it.

But he was introduced into the game very early on and killed off before half of the game was even over. It felt like they just wanted to get his character done and over with as soon as possible.

You could say the same of Mordin, but the absurdity would just be more apparent.

You can save Mordin.

You can't change that Mordin is early-game only character.

[RShara]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]RShara wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]RShara wrote...


2. Thane was not at peace with his death. He was not prepared to die. [/quote]He doesn't want to die, because he's found something to live for again, but that doesn't change coming to terms with it.

[quote]
He was not destined to die:[/quote]He was. It's rather a large part of his character arc.
[quote]Romanced Thane's character completely reverses his stance from ME2. Character reversal for no reason is not good writing.
[/quote]It's only a reversal if you project a specific interpretation onto him.
[/quote]

Please quote in context[/quote]I quoted the context I felt with relevance.
[/quote]
I think taking out that sentence made the context very unclear.
[quote]
[quote]
Just before the suicide mission, he comes to Shepard's cabin and confesses how he no longer wants to die. He is afraid of dying, and wants to live. Yet in ME3 when you meet him at the hospital, he is suddenly okay with dying, again, as if all of the development done in ME2 never
happened. [u]
[/quote]Not wanting to die is not the same as not coming to terms with it.
[/quote]
Coming to terms with it is not the same as being completely indifferent to it
[quote]
[quote]
Thane was never "destined" to die. The writers in ME2 said they weren't sure
where they were going to take the character. He could have been cured or not at that point.[/quote]Not being sure where exactly you take a character doesn't mean a general trajectory isn't laid out.

[quote]
Bioware featured several "Cure Thane" movements and used his image as the poster boy for some of the ME3 promotionals. In the leaked script, there were several options where Thane takes a bullet during the Coup, to stop Udina. In one of the options, he pulls off "A slick move" and stops Udina, and just looks "out of breath."
[/quote]And in various versions of the Kai Leng encounter, we might have been faced with a Virmire Survivor vs. Liara delimma, and the Prothean was the Catalyst. Lots of things get proposed but cut for various reasons. They are irrelevant for what the overall arc is.

[/quote]

The point in showing this is how he was never "destined" to die.  If the writers themselves didn't KNOW they wanted him to die, how is he "destined" to die?
His death was a possibility yes.  But there are a lot of things that Bioware did that gave us hope that he wouldn't.  And then they killed him in just about the worst possible way.

[Moira-chan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

RShara wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mayrabgood wrote...

If Thane's romance had been a real romance with conversations, private scene, and even a mission and then had died either through Kepral's or getting injured later on in the game, I would have been fine with it.

But he was introduced into the game very early on and killed off before half of the game was even over. It felt like they just wanted to get his character done and over with as soon as possible.

You could say the same of Mordin, but the absurdity would just be more apparent.

You can save Mordin.

You can't change that Mordin is early-game only character.

as much as i love mordin, he's not a li and get more content than thane, well and he was 50 yrs old, salarian normally become 40, so you can bring this "he has to die" thing too

[RShara]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

RShara wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mayrabgood wrote...

If Thane's romance had been a real romance with conversations, private scene, and even a mission and then had died either through Kepral's or getting injured later on in the game, I would have been fine with it.

But he was introduced into the game very early on and killed off before half of the game was even over. It felt like they just wanted to get his character done and over with as soon as possible.

You could say the same of Mordin, but the absurdity would just be more apparent.

You can save Mordin.

You can't change that Mordin is early-game only character.

No, but you CAN save him.  And he gets a really good, well thought out, dramatic mission.

[LoonySpectre]

Thane seems to be doomed from the outset by the ME3 writers. In another mission from the same leaked script (that contradicts the Udina one), his fate is even worse - he's already deathly ill, "too weak to go out" at all, and his only involvement is asking Shepard to help Kolyat with his troubles with Cerberus. And after Shepard does rescue Kolyat, the two go to Thane, say their last goodbyes, and Thane dies peacefully in his bed after giving his (unique?) sniper rifle to Shepard.
There's really nothing that prevents Thane from living (or at least having a proper closure of his romance) except the writers' will.

[RShara]

LoonySpectre wrote...
There's really nothing that prevents Thane from living (or at least having a proper closure of his romance) except the writers' will.

THIS A THOUSAND TIMES THIS  

[Julia_xo]

Dean, Thane went from saying he was afraid to die in ME2 to telling my Shepard he has no responsibilities or fears in ME3. How is that being consistent?

To me and many others it felt like his ME2 development was ignored or never happened. That's not good writing. Nor is it being true to the character.

[Dean_the_Young]

RShara wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

RShara wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mayrabgood wrote...

If Thane's romance had been a real romance with conversations, private scene, and even a mission and then had died either through Kepral's or getting injured later on in the game, I would have been fine with it.

But he was introduced into the game very early on and killed off before half of the game was even over. It felt like they just wanted to get his character done and over with as soon as possible.

You could say the same of Mordin, but the absurdity would just be more apparent.

You can save Mordin.

You can't change that Mordin is early-game only character.

No, but you CAN save him.  And he gets a really good, well thought out, dramatic mission.

Ah, I see the problem here, you're missing the point that was being addressed.

I was addressing the second paragraph, the complaint about feeling the writers wanted his character done and over with ASAP given how he was in and out before half the game was over. The same complaint can be leveled at Mordin, who even if he lives (and that can ONLY occur under a very specific, relatively uncommon mix od decisions), is removed from plot relevance after the Tuchanka mission.

Mordin has fewer occurances and and a shorter frame of relevance than Thane, but it would be absurd to claim that that reflects a desire to get rid of him and be done with it. Other characters have even fewer occurances across the story than Thane.

The extent of the story arc a character is around for isn't a viable indicator for the writer's attitude towards the character.