459 réponses à ce sujet

[LanceSolous13]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

RShara wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mayrabgood wrote...

If Thane's romance had been a real romance with conversations, private scene, and even a mission and then had died either through Kepral's or getting injured later on in the game, I would have been fine with it.

But he was introduced into the game very early on and killed off before half of the game was even over. It felt like they just wanted to get his character done and over with as soon as possible.

You could say the same of Mordin, but the absurdity would just be more apparent.

You can save Mordin.

You can't change that Mordin is early-game only character.

Yes, but Mordin gets several conversations and 2 or 3 missions featuring him as a prominent plot character. Thane has only a single conversation and then appears out of nowhere to fight Kai Leng, who imposes Gameplay-Story Segregation on every scene he appears in. Kai Leng cloaks while the camera pans away...BUT EVERYONE ELSE WAS WATCHING HIM THE ENTIRE TIME. -_-"

Modin can be saved but he also has a respectable death that had me bawling a bit. Thane's death has...very little to that. The closest that comes is the Prayer but its severly downplayed.

And, hell, when I went back to the Normandy, Garrus stated that he was afraid they'd have to add another name (The VS) to the board after the Cerberus Coup....EVEN THOUGH WE JUST PUT THANE UP THERE!

[RShara]

Okay, I can agree with that. We didn't think that him dying so early was exactly because they wanted to get rid of him. Just that we didn't like him dying so early, and with so little interaction.

Mordin had little too, but the way it was handled was much better. Also, Mordin wasn't a LI
And he really DID go out doing something only he could do.

Modifié par RShara, 29 juin 2012 - 09:20 .

[English Cooper]

I believe the major problem people who had there Shepard romance Thane is this –

VS dies (Optional) – Joker and Garrus make comment (Thane not mentioned)

VS Survives (Optional) – Joker and Garrus make comment that you almost had to kill them (or Jokes) (Thane not mentioned)

Miranda dies or survives - (Optional) - Joker, Tali, and Liara make comment and make reference to a romance if there was one)

If your Shepard was just friends with Thane this might have been fine, his final prayer and awesome fight scene just enough, but if your Shepard was in a romance with Thane it kinda just gets completely ignored.. Every Mass Effect 2 none DLC squadmate gets spoken about on the Normandy after you meet/see them… Except Thane whether you loved, hated, like or disliked his death scene this fact alone is enough to get people who invested their time in romancing Thane slightly annoyed... thier Shepard watched the person they loved die and never spoke about him again, when every other Romance option had that outlet afterwards.

[LanceSolous13]

LoonySpectre wrote...

Thane seems to be doomed from the outset by the ME3 writers. In another mission from the same leaked script (that contradicts the Udina one), his fate is even worse - he's already deathly ill, "too weak to go out" at all, and his only involvement is asking Shepard to help Kolyat with his troubles with Cerberus. And after Shepard does rescue Kolyat, the two go to Thane, say their last goodbyes, and Thane dies peacefully in his bed after giving his (unique?) sniper rifle to Shepard.
There's really nothing that prevents Thane from living (or at least having a proper closure of his romance) except the writers' will.

Although it has the same issues there, At least he got a mission and Kolyat doesn't have a drop-in-drop-out appearence in the game. Kolyat could have gotten a new model (instead of all Drell having the same everything) and we could finally see more of him and Shepard, since, Shepard could be dating his dad. You know? We never see anything about Kolyat's impression over Shepard really.

[Dean_the_Young]

RShara wrote...

Not wanting to die is not the same as not coming to terms with it.

Coming to terms with it is not the same as being completely indifferent to it

...that would be the point I was making, yes. You can be at terms with something and still be emotionally involved.

The point in showing this is how he was never "destined" to die.  If the writers themselves didn't KNOW they wanted him to die, how is he "destined" to die?

You're losing the forest for the lack of a specific  tree.

Thane's arc in ME2 was a mayfly romance: sweet, beautiful, but gone into with every awareness that it was going to be short. While Bioware could have radically changed it to break out of it, lord knows what they did with Jacob, there was no grounds to expect such a deviation.

His death was a possibility yes.  But there are a lot of things that Bioware did that gave us hope that he wouldn't.

Bioware didn't give you all the hope: you did a fair deal of projecting on your own.

And then they killed him in just about the worst possible way.

I could write out a number of much worse scenarios, if you're really lacking the perspective on that.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 juin 2012 - 09:25 .

[LanceSolous13]

No. If Bioware wanted it to be short and sweet and end with ME2, They shouldn't have had Thane fear death by the end of the game and throw around ideas for his survival, EVEN IN THE DLC THEY DO THIS.

[Lonsecia]

I never quite got into Thane. Maybe I found the religion aspect jarring at the time, or just didn't quite connect. I did find him interesting though, and can understand and respect that there's a lot of love for him.
I fully support some genuine closure with LI's, though I do wonder how they would integrate it so that it feels natural, and not contrived.
this is the thing though that irks me about ME3's ending: Almost all of the squad-mates, and many supporting characters are as loved as those in books, films and TV series. Most games have a pretty disposable cast, and the fact that ME has so many fantastic characters is a credit to BioWare. So it's all the more galling when some are given poor exits and the game itself ends in a way we don't feel works for us.

[Dean_the_Young]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Yes, but Mordin gets several conversations and 2 or 3 missions featuring him as a prominent plot character.

Mordin only gets one on-Normandy conversation, and only plays a prominent role in one mission (Tuchanka), and is a bystander on the Salarian homeworld.

Thane has only a single conversation and then appears out of nowhere to fight Kai Leng, who imposes Gameplay-Story Segregation on every scene he appears in. Kai Leng cloaks while the camera pans away...BUT EVERYONE ELSE WAS WATCHING HIM THE ENTIRE TIME. -_-"

Congratulations at action scenes, Bioware's personal weakness. Wait until you see James Vega with a Revenant during the introduction of the Brute.

Thane does have more than one conversation, as you are well aware.

Modin can be saved but he also has a respectable death that had me bawling a bit. Thane's death has...very little to that. The closest that comes is the Prayer but its severly downplayed.

That's two very subjective opinions.

And, hell, when I went back to the Normandy, Garrus stated that he was afraid they'd have to add another name (The VS) to the board after the Cerberus Coup....EVEN THOUGH WE JUST PUT THANE UP THERE!

And that changes that he was afraid they'd have to add another one on top of that... how?

[RShara]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

RShara wrote...

Not wanting to die is not the same as not coming to terms with it.

Coming to terms with it is not the same as being completely indifferent to it

...that would be the point I was making, yes. You can be at terms with something and still be emotionally involved.

Except he was not emotionally involved in his death any more.  He went back to not caring.  That's the reversal we meant.

The point in showing this is how he was never "destined" to die.  If the writers themselves didn't KNOW they wanted him to die, how is he "destined" to die?

You're losing the forest for the lack of a specific  tree.

Thane's arc in ME2 was a mayfly romance: sweet, beautiful, but gone into with every awareness that it was going to be short. While Bioware could have radically changed it to break out of it, lord knows what they did with Jacob, there was no grounds to expect such a deviation.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this.  I think that there were grounds, as I illustrated.  None of it is concrete, I will give you that.  But my Shepard considered the relationship with Thane to be something serious, and she would never have given up on trying to save him.  And the hints and teases that BW gave us certainly led us in the direction of a possible cure or life extension.

His death was a possibility yes.  But there are a lot of things that Bioware did that gave us hope that he wouldn't.

Bioware didn't give you all the hope: you did a fair deal of projecting on your own.

And then they killed him in just about the worst possible way.

I could write out a number of much worse scenarios, if you're really lacking the perspective on that.

No thanks, I already have enough depression in this situation.  If you must nitpick, then I can rephrase to say, In the worst possible way that I had feared.  Read:  Thane being replacable and forgotten.

Modifié par RShara, 29 juin 2012 - 09:34 .

[RShara]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And, hell, when I went back to the Normandy, Garrus stated that he was afraid they'd have to add another name (The VS) to the board after the Cerberus Coup....EVEN THOUGH WE JUST PUT THANE UP THERE!

And that changes that he was afraid they'd have to add another one on top of that... how?

The fact that Garrus said that he was afraid to add another name up there, meaning the VS, and NOT EVEN MENTIONING that they just added HE WHO MUST NOT BE NAMED is very poor showing

[The_Animal81]

In regards to your second point:
"2. Thane was not at peace with his death. He was not prepared to die. He was not destined to die:"
More so on the he was not "destined to die", um, he was destined to die, everyone is. This is because everyone will die at some point, so maybe it would be best to drop that part in the header for this point so it doesn't confuse readers at first. Also as far as Thane being prepared to die in ME3, its simple to rationalize that Thane has finally accepted his fate (death from his disease). If i do recall correctly in ME3 Thane does say that he hasn't gotten any better, so he has only gotten worse. Now when one is faced with a life threatening disease, that person will eventually come to the realization as some point that their going to die and this will allow them to be at peace with it. I have seen this happen twice with two different individuals from my family. So I do hope that this brought some clarity or new insight on this topic. I also loved Thane and was quite upset when I saw him die (never romanced him tho) and I do wish that there was some sort of mourning after his death.

[Dean_the_Young]

RShara wrote...

Except he was not emotionally involved in his death any more.  He went back to not caring.  That's the reversal we meant.

Not weeping =/= not caring. Thane's outburst was not some new normal level of behavior.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this.  I think that there were grounds, as I illustrated.  None of it is concrete, I will give you that.  But my Shepard considered the relationship with Thane to be something serious, and she would never have given up on trying to save him.  And the hints and teases that BW gave us certainly led us in the direction of a possible cure or life extension.

Nothing in ME3 contradicts your Shepard, or what you say. The prospects of a cure were raised in ME2... but also in terms of being too late for Thane. Life extension was possible via blood transfusions... which is why Thane was around in ME3. Your Shepard didn't have to give up on Thane... but it isn't Shepard's choice alone for when Thane will die.

No thanks, I already have enough depression in this situation.  If you must nitpick, then I can rephrase to say, In the worst possible way that I had feared.  Read:  Thane being replacable and forgotten.

Thane's blood supply is poisoned by Cerberus before the coup.

Thane dies to save the Virmire Survivor from being shot by Udina.

Thane dies from a Phantom mook stabbing him, rather than a Named Character.

Thane's son is held hostage, and Thane accepts death without a fight.

Thane is squashed under the ass of an Atlas landing.

[LanceSolous13]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Yes, but Mordin gets several conversations and 2 or 3 missions featuring him as a prominent plot character.

Mordin only gets one on-Normandy conversation, and only plays a prominent role in one mission (Tuchanka), and is a bystander on the Salarian homeworld.

Thane has only a single conversation and then appears out of nowhere to fight Kai Leng, who imposes Gameplay-Story Segregation on every scene he appears in. Kai Leng cloaks while the camera pans away...BUT EVERYONE ELSE WAS WATCHING HIM THE ENTIRE TIME. -_-"

Congratulations at action scenes, Bioware's personal weakness. Wait until you see James Vega with a Revenant during the introduction of the Brute.

Thane does have more than one conversation, as you are well aware.

Modin can be saved but he also has a respectable death that had me bawling a bit. Thane's death has...very little to that. The closest that comes is the Prayer but its severly downplayed.

That's two very subjective opinions.

And, hell, when I went back to the Normandy, Garrus stated that he was afraid they'd have to add another name (The VS) to the board after the Cerberus Coup....EVEN THOUGH WE JUST PUT THANE UP THERE!

And that changes that he was afraid they'd have to add another one on top of that... how?

Yes, Mordin is a bystander in the Salarian Homeworld Level, but you have, I believe, two conversations with Mordin on Sur'Kesh, added with the bonus of him talking to you over your Omni-Tool the entire mission. He has a single conversation on the Nomrnayd while havinbg 3 Ambient Conversations. On Tuchunka, He appears in every scene and talks the entire mission, you have a nice long conversation with several paths to it at the very end of the level, and then his has a well written death that gives closure to his Character Development.

Thane can be talked to ONCE on the Citadel, he talks to you ONCE on the Omni-Tool for only a few seconds, He appears in ONE cutscene during the Citadel Coup which had large ammounts of Big Lipped Aligator Moment, Gameplay-Story Segregation, and "Why don't you just shoot him" written all over it, and a Death Scene which doesn't have any dialogue options, changes not once weather you romanced him or not, and has no paths to the dialogue. It also brings Kolyat into the spotlight for him just to dissapear behind a locked door for the rest of the game. Can we not ask him what he'll do now that his father is dead? Nothing. His death didn't bring closure to his character at all.

And then you get back to the Normandy and Garrus is talking about how he was afraid they'd lose someone close during the Citadel Coup....Even though Shep very well could have lost a (boy)friend or at least a colegue during the mission AND GARRUS WITNESSED SAID DEATH but never brings up the fact that, hey, you did just add a name to the wall. His death is never mentioned again except for in the death of Kai Leng for it to only dissapear once again. His death has a huge ammount of Big Lipped Aligator Moment surrounding it, its not funny at all.

[LanceSolous13]

Bump for the Lizard-lickers!

[blue water]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Bump for the Lizard-lickers!

Crude, but effective. Damn, I didn't even romance the guy.

[RShara]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

RShara wrote...

Except he was not emotionally involved in his death any more.  He went back to not caring.  That's the reversal we meant.

Not weeping =/= not caring. Thane's outburst was not some new normal level of behavior.

Yes, not weeping =/= not caring.  But if you listen, he is literally completely okay with dying.  He has no fears or regrets.  This is what is puzzling for us.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this.  I think that there were grounds, as I illustrated.  None of it is concrete, I will give you that.  But my Shepard considered the relationship with Thane to be something serious, and she would never have given up on trying to save him.  And the hints and teases that BW gave us certainly led us in the direction of a possible cure or life extension.[/quote
]Nothing in ME3 contradicts your Shepard, or what you say. The prospects of a cure were raised in ME2... but also in terms of being too late for Thane. Life extension was possible via blood transfusions... which is why Thane was around in ME3. Your Shepard didn't have to give up on Thane... but it isn't Shepard's choice alone for when Thane will die.

The thing is, Shepard didn't really try to keep him alive.  Thane was eligible for transplants, but turned them down (pre-Shepard).  Shepard never brings up these possiblities, and just accepts Thane's blase attitude about dying.
She never asks him if he's looked into alternate treatments, life extensions, or anything.  If she had, and Thane gave his reasons for not taking them, and they had an actual discussion, (which is what we are asking for) then the reversal would have made sense and a lot of us would have been more okay with it.
All of our Shepards are determined people and go after what they want with unrelenting determination.
If what Shepard wanted was for her lover to live, wouldn't the topic logically at least have been brought up rather than ignored?

[RShara]

If I didn't like saying Thane's name so much, I'd start calling him HE WHO MUST NOT BE NAMED since that's what Bioware did to him.

[Hackulator]

I'm sorry, but I cannot comprehend the people who are unhappy with Thane's treatment in ME3. Though his appearance was short, it was amazingly written and had more emotional punch than most entire Hollywood movies. Just because something is small does not mean its bad. Also, how can you say he did not die a hero, he died saving the life of the Salarian Counselor.

[RShara]

Hackulator, did you read the first post?

[LanceSolous13]

blue water wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Bump for the Lizard-lickers!

Crude, but effective. Damn, I didn't even romance the guy.

Comes from Mordin's mention of a drell's skin causing halucinations and suggests not to lick it or something along those lines if you romance him in ME2. Thus, Lizard/Drell-lickers.

[RShara]

Oral contact may cause hallucinations

[LanceSolous13]

RShara wrote...

Oral contact may cause hallucinations

Thank you.

[blue water]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

RShara wrote...

Oral contact may cause hallucinations

Thank you.

Sorry, no disrepect intended.

[RShara]

? I didn't see any disrespect?

[blue water]

Hackulator wrote...

I'm sorry, but I cannot comprehend the people who are unhappy with Thane's treatment in ME3. Though his appearance was short, it was amazingly written and had more emotional punch than most entire Hollywood movies. Just because something is small does not mean its bad. Also, how can you say he did not die a hero, he died saving the life of the Salarian Counselor.

This goes back several pages, so I understand the confusion.  I didn't romance Thane, guessing you didn't either.  The blessing and curse of the ME universe is that certain decisions (e.g., who we romance) alters our experience.  In my playthrough Thane was a hero.  Tragically, his actions seem to have hastened his death. How this played out, and the resultant closure achieved is different if you romanced him.  I'm guessing this is true of other ME 2 LI as well.