86 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

A significant portion of the ME3 ending criticism came from lack of epilogue.

Kind of a shame they didn't learn from the DA2 ending criticism.

[Jerrybnsn]

Wulfram wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

A significant portion of the ME3 ending criticism came from lack of epilogue.

Kind of a shame they didn't learn from the DA2 ending criticism.

Maybe the DA2 ending was overshadowed by all the other issues players had with it.  It seems that larger more diversve maps and an ability to equip your companions might be the only changes that we see in the next DA game.

[bEVEsthda]

[quote]Allan Schumacher wrote...

A significant portion of the ME3 ending criticism came from lack of epilogue.[/quote]

So now you have satisfied a "significant portion" of your ME audience. Good for you. Congratulations.
[/quote]


[quote]batlin wrote...

[quote]bEVEsthda wrote...

Just No.

Open roads.

The end messages in DA:O was something I disliked. The reason is probably complex, but it has something to do with that if variations in the epilogue becomes a thing that tries to accomodate those who want to see how their choices affect the world, please don't. I'm much better off with my own speculations until I reestablish contact in another game. And so is Bioware and the authors of that another game.

Bioware' endings have almost always been utter crap. Spend some effort to fix that instead of this nonsens of little value and significant drawbacks.
[/quote]

So then shut your game off before the epilogue rolls. Problem solved. Also, I'd say the vast majority on here like the epilogues.

[/quote]

The epilogue would still be there, so the problem is not solved.
Also if you rely on providing an epilogue, then that will affect how you handle the ending. Bioware's endings are already really bad. The only one that shines is DA:O. It still do some things wrong, like it cuts when the dragon dies. But the epilogues don't make it better.

You don't know what the vast majority likes. I'd say what the "vast majority" thinks, always very much depends upon how you pose the question.
Bioware should concentrate on crafting better endings. Provide a new dawn, the parting and final choices ingame, in a last setting.
No epilogues about what happens years and years after, thankyou.

[batlin]

bEVEsthda wrote...

So now you have satisfied a "significant portion" of your ME audience. Good for you. Congratulations.

Are you trying to be sarcastic or something? Because the extended ME3 endings have had very positive receptions.

bEVEsthda wrote...

The epilogue would still be there, so the problem is not solved.
Also if you rely on providing an epilogue, then that will affect how you handle the ending. Bioware's endings are already really bad. The only one that shines is DA:O. It still do some things wrong, like it cuts when the dragon dies. But the epilogues don't make it better.

Yeah they do. It's rewarding to know what effects your actions throughout the game had. You disagree, fine, but that doesn't change that most people actually do prefer them.

You don't know what the vast majority likes. I'd say what the "vast majority" thinks, always very much depends upon how you pose the question.

I do actually, never once did I see someone complain about the presence of an epilogue. You're the only one, and you haven't actually stated reasons for why you don't like them. And I don;t think there have been any epilogues that say what happens "years and years later"

[bEVEsthda]

batlin wrote...

You don't know what the vast majority likes. I'd say what the "vast majority" thinks, always very much depends upon how you pose the question.

I do actually, never once did I see someone complain about the presence of an epilogue. You're the only one, and you haven't actually stated reasons for why you don't like them. And I don;t think there have been any epilogues that say what happens "years and years later"

The written pieces in DA:O did. If you refer to something else as "epilogue", then this discussion between you and me could do with some clarification.

I'm certainly not an advocate of abrupt endings leaving everything hanging in the air, (like ME3 did actually, ...also), on the contrary I'm trying to make a case for real endings.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 30 juin 2012 - 11:05 .

[bEVEsthda]

batlin wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

So now you have satisfied a "significant portion" of your ME audience. Good for you. Congratulations.

Are you trying to be sarcastic or something? Because the extended ME3 endings have had very positive receptions.

It's not sarcastic. What is there to be sarcastic about? It's dry, on the point and only response possible.

[batlin]

bEVEsthda wrote...

It's not sarcastic. What is there to be sarcastic about? It's dry, on the point and only response possible.

So then why put the significant portion part in quotations

[bEVEsthda]

batlin wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

It's not sarcastic. What is there to be sarcastic about? It's dry, on the point and only response possible.

So then why put the significant portion part in quotations

Because if it's significant, is not my judgement, but his.

[batlin]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Because if it's significant, is not my judgement, but his.

Not just his. Do you recall that whole "retake ME3" thing? Yeah, that had a lot to do with the utter lack of questions answered.

[bEVEsthda]

batlin wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Because if it's significant, is not my judgement, but his.

Not just his. Do you recall that whole "retake ME3" thing? Yeah, that had a lot to do with the utter lack of questions answered.

It's not how I see it. Bad ending.
If you get rotten meat in a restuarant, what's the significance of the wine being too cold?

[Rxdiaz]

For a developer that is supposed to be great at story telling, their last few games have certainly been lacking in that area. And not just in the endings either....

[Emzamination]

Darth Death wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

DA2 was intended to be ended on a cliffhanger unfortunately,

No it wasn't, someone on the team got ambitious and decided to leave it there.It was stated that hawkes journey would conclude through future dlcs.

DA2 DLC is at a end, unless I've miss something.  

Yes, now it is because the team decided to drop it and switch focus, da2 was not originally suppose to end on a cliff hanger.

[AshenSugar]

The eluvian clearly worked, and you really think Finn, the guy who was obsessed with elven magic, and a dalish who had found the only working artifact from elven lore since the war, would not tell people that the Warden went through it and/or study it to find out exactly where they'd gone?

I think that's entirely debatable.

Certainly the Circle, and perhaps the Dalish might study the artifact, and any lingering traces of magical energy that still resided from Morrigan and The Warden's use of it - but the question is, would they be able to learn anything useful or enlightening about Morrigan/Warden's location, or even the purpose behind their actions? Perhaps, perhaps not.

Morrigan herselt stated something to the effect that once she had gone through it would impossible to follow her. The whole process was based upon her mother's magic, which, by inference, we can assume is significantly powerful; arguably more powerful than anything posessed by the Circle or Dalish, though of course this is pure speculation.

We do know from dialogue options that Alistair had some knowledge of the ritual and Morrigan's design to keep the slayer of the Archdemon alive... but how much he knows about the whole plan is somewhat unclear as no details are explicity given within the game. Finn and the Elven lady (forgot her name) could perhaps fill in some missing details (depending upon whether or not they overheard the Warden and Morrigan's final conversation), but they could probably provide few clues other than to point out that the Eluvian had acted as a means of travel to some place beyond the fade, and that a child was involved who posessed the essence of an Old God.

Would this be enough to mount an expedition to follow Morrigan and The Warden? Would the circle mages and/or Dalish posess sufficient knowledge and skill to re-activate, or re-create Flemeth's magic?

I personally choose to believe that they would not, and that Morrigan was far too clever and thorough to risk the unravelling of her plans at the hands of nosy mages or inquisitive elves seeking lost knowledge, or to make such an elementary mistake of allowing the Eluvian to be reactivated by a third party once used... but who really knows?

Modifié par AshenSugar, 30 juin 2012 - 03:20 .

[jds1bio]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

A significant portion of the ME3 ending criticism came from lack of epilogue.

Kind of a shame they didn't learn from the DA2 ending criticism.

Maybe the DA2 ending was overshadowed by all the other issues players had with it.  It seems that larger more diversve maps and an ability to equip your companions might be the only changes that we see in the next DA game.

Well, combat aside (which, to BioWare's credit, was tuned and patched up to a degree, and improved in DLC), one of the most common complaints about the ending was that some choices didn't seem to have an effect or impact.  I think the ME3 EC proves that with a fair-to-decent epilogue, choices you make can be shown to have some kind of understandable impact.

So I think it's totally possible to have a DA2 epilogue that shows the immediate impact of Hawke's choices, particularly the final choice, while leaving the story and the structure of the final confrontation largely intact.  Who you have fighting with you during the final confrontation (aside from your companions) already says a bit about the choices you made during the game, so some of the necessary logic is already present in the game. 

In hindsight, having such an epilogue also might have mitigated the acrimony present in some of the subsequent debates and arguments that were had here on BSN.  The ME3 EC discussions have been some of the least vitriolic I've read in quite a while.

[Allan Schumacher]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

A significant portion of the ME3 ending criticism came from lack of epilogue.

So now you have satisfied a "significant portion" of your ME audience. Good for you. Congratulations.

Snarkyness aside, the point was brought up that perhaps you're the outlier in terms of what gamers expect from their epilogues?

I do actually, never once did I see someone complain about the
presence of an epilogue. You're the only one, and you haven't actually
stated reasons for why you don't like them. And I don;t think there have
been any epilogues that say what happens "years and years later"

I have seen people complain about epilogues when they talk about what the player character does after.  I think it's a reasonable complaint too.

I think in general they are typically well received as they provide another way (often with low cost too) to provide reactivity to the gamer's choices.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 30 juin 2012 - 05:50 .

[robertthebard]

batlin wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I'm sure we will soon find out where our Warden and Hawke have disappeared to, so although you probably won't ever get your DA2 sliders, we'll eventually be told of their fate. Either way, I doubt they're dead... at least, not yet anyway lol.

See, here's what I don't get. My Warden is chilling with Alistair and Zevran in Denerim, or possibly in his Arling of Amaranthine. How exactly does BW figure that the Warden just vanished when there was absolutely no opportunity in DA:O or any of its DLC for the Warden to leave/die without someone knowing about it?

My Warden's dead, and so is Alistair, so what happens now, my story gets slapped down to suit yours?  What about all the other people that chose the way I did, or the way you did, or close, or all the people in the middle?  None of that matters unless it's exactly your canon?  That's the problem with games in series with multiple endings, sooner or later, someone's choices get disregarded to forward the story.  Of course, this is nothing new.

[robertthebard]

bEVEsthda wrote...

The epilogue would still be there, so the problem is not solved.
Also if you rely on providing an epilogue, then that will affect how you handle the ending. Bioware's endings are already really bad. The only one that shines is DA:O. It still do some things wrong, like it cuts when the dragon dies. But the epilogues don't make it better.

You don't know what the vast majority likes. I'd say what the "vast majority" thinks, always very much depends upon how you pose the question.
Bioware should concentrate on crafting better endings. Provide a new dawn, the parting and final choices ingame, in a last setting.
No epilogues about what happens years and years after, thankyou.

Which one of the endings shone?  The one where the Warden is dead?  How about where the Warden is King or Queen, only to find out, "Hey, you're really the Warden Commander in Amaranthine"?  Perhaps you meant the CE origin, where depending on who's ruling, the Alienage gets purged again?  To DR or not to DR, that was a question.  Despite what people seem to think, there was not one ending for Origins, but lots of possible endings, so which one are you referring to?

[Realmzmaster]

I liked DA2 approach with the letters highlighting the outcome of a quest more than I did the epilogue slides at the end of DAO. The point that others did not I understand. The letters for me provided the same outcome as the epilogue slides.

The problem with DAO endings is that there are multiple endings that have to be taken into consideration. As robertthebard has pointed out. No ones ending is more important than another. Bioware put itself in the corner with the multiple endings and now has to find a way out. Some people are not going to be happy depending on the canon that is picked. Just like some gamers were not happy when Leliana made a appearance in the Exile Prince dlc. since they killed her in DAO. Choices are going to be discarded to further the story.

Maybe it would be better if Bioware wrapped up each installations story in game and not carry choices over. Pick a set history and roll with it.

[JennDragonAge]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The whole studio has definitely taken notice on the reaction to the ME3 endings, so looking forward I think that there are some lessons learned from it and DA2.

If you're asking for additional content for DA2, I guess nothing is for certain, but IIRC Mark Darrah made a comment about how we were moving forward to other projects with the cancellation of the expansion pack we were working on.

It sucks if you'd like more answers, but I certainly wouldn't count on it if you're anxiously waiting for more.

i'm afraid Bioware feels they've been burned with the whole choices thing in the ME universe, so they are going to move away from it. I hope that's not the case because I think the fact that choices are supposed to carry over throughout the ME and DA games are one of the coolest aspects about them. I realize it has likely been more difficult to carry out than envisioned, but I feel they handled it brilliantly in some aspects of ME such as Ashley/Kaiden and Wrex/Wreav. Granted some areas did not come across as well (rachnii decision). I think the "carry over" from DAO to DA2 was minimal and not handled quite as well. If someone dies for one person, that person should remain dead in their world. I feel the reason protagonists are changing with the DA series is likely because it makes the choices thing easier to handle since they don't have to be addressed directly. While I would prefer to personally close up the Warden and Hawke's storylines myself, I realize that is not going to happen. At the same time, I truly hope that their storylines are at least tied up at some point in the franchise with some hint as to how our choices affected the outcomes. Their fates could either be discussed by other characters or be shown through cutscenes in future games set within the world.

Modifié par JennDragonAge, 30 juin 2012 - 08:22 .

[Uccio]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The whole studio has definitely taken notice on the reaction to the ME3 endings, so looking forward I think that there are some lessons learned from it and DA2.

If you're asking for additional content for DA2, I guess nothing is for certain, but IIRC Mark Darrah made a comment about how we were moving forward to other projects with the cancellation of the expansion pack we were working on.

It sucks if you'd like more answers, but I certainly wouldn't count on it if you're anxiously waiting for more.

As much as I have been ****ing about DA2 I felt that not getting a better closure for it was even bigger bummer.

[TonberryFeye]

Closure for DA2 is arguably a waste of time and money; it's pretty clear there's not a great following for the game, and so if they do go back and add to it they'll just get hammered even more for 'wasting time on a sucky game' instead of focusing on trying to save the franchise with DA3.

[bEVEsthda]

robertthebard wrote...

Which one of the endings shone?  The one where the Warden is dead?  How about where the Warden is King or Queen, only to find out, "Hey, you're really the Warden Commander in Amaranthine"?  Perhaps you meant the CE origin, where depending on who's ruling, the Alienage gets purged again?  To DR or not to DR, that was a question.  Despite what people seem to think, there was not one ending for Origins, but lots of possible endings, so which one are you referring to?

All of them! But perhaps slightly more to the point, I liked the way the game handled the ending.

There are two sides to this. There is the written ending. The writer craft. That is what ME3 was unsuccessful with.
However, I mix all this up, because I've always been annoyed by Bioware's endings. But usually, it's a matter of gameplay and presentation. Like the classic BG endings, which made a comeback in Awakening: The archenemy receives his fatal wou.... abrupt cut  and credits rolling. DA:O was the first game where Bioware paid some serious attention to the end and it was pretty good. Not perfect. As I've said, I could have lost the writeups about what happened later, as consequences of our choices.

The end setting provided as much closure as I wanted. Either the Warden is dead, or when the warden walks out of that door, there's an open road.
When I get sofar, I have a pretty good idea about what my Warden did next. I don't need to read some poster about "no one knows" or whatever. Same about Ferelden and Thedas. If there is anything more to tell, tell me in later games.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 30 juin 2012 - 11:07 .

[Allan Schumacher]

JennDragonAge wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The whole studio has definitely taken notice on the reaction to the ME3 endings, so looking forward I think that there are some lessons learned from it and DA2.

If you're asking for additional content for DA2, I guess nothing is for certain, but IIRC Mark Darrah made a comment about how we were moving forward to other projects with the cancellation of the expansion pack we were working on.

It sucks if you'd like more answers, but I certainly wouldn't count on it if you're anxiously waiting for more.

i'm afraid Bioware feels they've been burned with the whole choices thing in the ME universe, so they are going to move away from it. I hope that's not the case because I think the fact that choices are supposed to carry over throughout the ME and DA games are one of the coolest aspects about them. I realize it has likely been more difficult to carry out than envisioned, but I feel they handled it brilliantly in some aspects of ME such as Ashley/Kaiden and Wrex/Wreav. Granted some areas did not come across as well (rachnii decision). I think the "carry over" from DAO to DA2 was minimal and not handled quite as well. If someone dies for one person, that person should remain dead in their world. I feel the reason protagonists are changing with the DA series is likely because it makes the choices thing easier to handle since they don't have to be addressed directly. While I would prefer to personally close up the Warden and Hawke's storylines myself, I realize that is not going to happen. At the same time, I truly hope that their storylines are at least tied up at some point in the franchise with some hint as to how our choices affected the outcomes. Their fates could either be discussed by other characters or be shown through cutscenes in future games set within the world.

When you say choices, I gather you more mean the "bigger choices" that would have repercussions beyond a single game?  (i.e. choices that would get imported or something along those lines)?

[Dutchess]

Mehh, I don't know if we'll ever get real closure for Hawke. David Gaider once replied to my post in which I said the ending of DA2 lacked closure and was unsatisfactory. He said that even though 'some' persons might not find it satisfactory, he did not agree there was no closure for Hawke at the end of the game. So it seems he's still behind the ending.

Well, I repeat what I have said before. Had the game ended with Hawke fleeing Kirkwall (mage side) or becoming Viscount (templar side), the ending would have been fine by me. It does not provide a lot of closure, but you feel like the story you have played is finished, and you can wait for the next game. The stupid scene with Leliana, however, has destroyed that little bit of closure.
"Gone, just like the Warden. That can be no coincidence."
Now we suddenly have no closure, but a cliffhanger. Now a new, great big mystery is introduced at the very end of the game. Suddenly there are a lot of questions (and that while DA2 already left a lot of questions unanswered), and you lose the chance to come up with what Hawke could be doing after the events in the game. I'm not that big on headcanon anyway, but now there is the strong suggestion of a new plot, something the writers have in mind. That makes it pointless for me to fantasize about the characters, because I already know for sure it can't possibly be true.

The cliffhanger screams "FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING BY BUYING DA3" in my face, and I do not appreciate it. Cliffhangers are fine for a tv show like the vampire diaries, when you have to wait a week, or the summer, for it to continue. It's not okay for a game, when you have to wait at least three years before the story is continued. Then it has lost it's function and it's just annoying.

[Jerrybnsn]

jds1bio wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

A significant portion of the ME3 ending criticism came from lack of epilogue.

Kind of a shame they didn't learn from the DA2 ending criticism.

Maybe the DA2 ending was overshadowed by all the other issues players had with it. .

In hindsight, having such an epilogue also might have mitigated the acrimony present in some of the subsequent debates and arguments that were had here on BSN.  The ME3 EC discussions have been some of the least vitriolic I've read in quite a while.

Okay.  But to be more specific about the DA2 ending, the majority of gamers had issues with the entire Act III, so in this case any ending, with or without epilogues (although Varric gives a narrated epilogue and Leliana and Cassandra give an additional cinematic epilogue) was a blessing.