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Brand New Feelings on DA2


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#76
Cultist

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batlin wrote...
So then shut your game off before the epilogue rolls. Problem solved. Also, I'd say the vast majority on here like the epilogues.

i'd say that 90% of people hate Mass Effect 3. This statement is as much true as yours about vast majority who likes the epilogues as I can't prove it.
BioWare already crushed their reputation with the whole Ending fiasco and EC is like a cherry atop of a cace made of dirt.
Try to stroll the polls to see that even there, with very limited community representation, the opinions are as divided as before. like here. With DA3 they have no chance to fail as after ME3, DA2 and SWTOR they have to redeem themelves before fanbase that still hhave a bit of hope for upcoming quality product.

#77
SphereofSilence

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

First off, I get what you're saying that having more iterations on parts of the game make those parts stronger. Citing Act 1 of DA2, however, wasn't exactly a good example, Act 2 was stronger IMO.

I see this has came up a lot. I'm not restricting my comments about being a "stronger" act purely based on how interesting or subjectively good the content is, but also on whether or not there's issues with the content, as well as the amount of content.

Now, everyone is going to have different experiences (I rarely had issues with bugs in FONV at release, and it's considered one of the buggier games on release in recent history), so your mileage may vary. But in my experiences with the game as it went through certification (essentially the game is done) is that I feel there's more obvious issues with the game in the later acts, from a purely technical point of view.

Evidently not everyone agrees :P


Ah, now I understand what you're saying, and yes from a technical point of view, there were less issues and more content amount on earlier parts which were polished more with more iterations, from experience with BW games.

#78
Fast Jimmy

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Cultist wrote...

batlin wrote...
So then shut your game off before the epilogue rolls. Problem solved. Also, I'd say the vast majority on here like the epilogues.

i'd say that 90% of people hate Mass Effect 3. This statement is as much true as yours about vast majority who likes the epilogues as I can't prove it.


Counting up ME3 haters... just how do we do it?
Its really quite simple, there's nothing much to it.
We found out how many, we learn the amount
From an Audio-Telly-o-Tally-o-Count!

On a mountain halfway between Reno and Rome
We have a machine in a plexi-glass dome
Which listens and looks into every player's homes
And, whenever it seems the endings flop,
It jiggles and let a new Biggel-ball drop!
Our chap counts these balls they drop in a cup
And that's how we know how much ME3 sucks.

#79
Fast Jimmy

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As a staunch supporter of epilogue slides (or any kind of quest/story follow up at the end of the game) for endings, I would say that I'm not sure it would have helped DA2 all that much. The game does what ME3 does, where the ending ignores all previous choice and then doesn't change much at all depending on a choice presented in the last fifteen minutes of the game. With the EC, this isn't QUITE as egregious, but it still boils down to the ending coming out of left field and taking control of the story, which is bad.

HOWEVER... I feel like epilogue could have been handled as naturally as possible at the end of DA2 in a very organic way. We could have flashed forward to the conversation between Varric and Casandra and had her ask "So what happened to the Dreamer, Feynriel? The Divine will likely want to keep eyes on him." Or... well, you know, I really can't think of many other choices in the game that really gave you an option that didn't wind up in the exact same place two seconds later. Maybe what happened to the councilor's son who was killing kids?

Regardless, this would have an easy way for Cassandra or Varric to ask questions of each other, given that they are three years in the future, and tie up some loose threads.

Not sure if it would have made the ending(s) more palatable, but it does give a certain amount of closure.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:51 .


#80
Cultist

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Fallout 2 made best use of epilogues, regarding all major and even sme minor quests and decisions of the player. Origins used it to some point.

#81
mopotter

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I must be alone in this. The information I received at the end of DA'2 didn't bother me. Hawk and LI were off doing their own thing somewhere. DA:O was fine also, I didn't get the dlc so my Wardens are all doing whatever they want, One is wandering around with Alistair, one is Queen and one is rebuilding the Wardens while keeping house with Zev.

Act III the problem I had was the leaders of both sides were nuts, and other things through out the game - no one caring that a mage was walking around with her staff, while disconcerting, over all I still have fun playing it.

I don't need a laid out future for my characters, I just need to know some of them survived the last fight with their LI, if they have one, and everyone is doing things they had talked about on our journey even if it's just a - going to help rebuild the circle, going back to see if home can be rebuilt, going to look for someone.

JE, KOTOR, DA:O and DA:2 ME1 and 2 all had endings that gave me satisfaction.

ME3, well, the EC helped for a couple of plays but for me, Shepard should have come to with someone (LI would have been best) there to patch up the wounds, and a few other things that aren't for this forum.

DA:2 worked for me. Not totally perfect, but again, unless I'm going to learn out to make games on my own, no game is going to be perfect.

#82
BlackFulcrum

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After playing trough the ME3 EC, and looking back at the entire ME series, I think my main gripes with DA2 are as follows:

- Attachment / Investment into the main character.
In the ME series and DA:O I had an attachement, and emotional investment to my character, that was my character, my Shepard, my Warden, me.
I never had that with Hawke, not at one single point in the game, I felt more attached to some of my companions rather then Hawke.
And I think that, at least for me, this has to do with the initial character creation limitations.
In ME1, at character creation, I could choose two critical moments of her past to help shape her, her origin, and her military history, I chose Earthborn, an orphan who survived on the streets and ran with gangs as origin, and Sole Survivor, she was the only survivor of a Threshermaw attack on Akuze, as military background.
That imediatly helped shape the character in my head, she came from nothing, she had to fight for everything, she went trough hell and back, she's tough as nails, and still humble, and probably has a bit survivors guilt.
And all this before the actual gameplay starts.
In DA:O this appeared in the form of the racial origins, and again you can choose your background, and you can elaborate upon it with the initial origin prologue before Duncan picks you up.
In DA2, there is no such thing, there is one origin, there is little background given, and you're pretty much thrust straight into the fight saving your own family, whom you barely know anything about.
There is nothing there to shape my view of this character, who was she before I took control of her, what is her disposition?
I think that for that reason I probably gave Hawke the default female Hawke face, while I made a custom face for my Shepard, and for my Warden (profile picture on the left)

- Cohesion of the story
The three acts felt very disconected from one another, and the ending felt very unsatisfactory, what ever you choose you end up fighting both bosses, the war still happens on the same terms, Hawke leaves.
The brewing discontent that leads to the final battle is only very vaguely hinted at during Act 1 and 2, the dwarven expedition at the end of Act 1 feels out of place.
Act 2 was indeed the best written, and executed, but that's just it, the best part is in de the middle of the game.
Also the progress felt very forced liniar, you need to got A then B then C then D before you can progress to the next act, in ME games you could chose were to go first, A, B or C, completing them in what ever order you pleased before progressing to the next act, and the acts felt like part of the big whole.
In DA:O there were no real acts to speak of, once I was done in Lotheringen I could go to Redcliffe, or the Circle Tower, or Orzammar, or the Brellican Forest, and decide yourself in what sequence to do these before progressing the story after they all are done.
I play RPG's like this mostly for a good combo of action and story, and DA2's story is poor, very poor.

- The ending
As I mentioned in the previous post the ending is pretty much crap, what ever side you side with, which ever alignment you took, good or evil, it doesn't matter, the outcome is pretty much the same you fight Orsino and Meredith, and Hawke leaves, it almost comes out of nowhere, hits you in the face, and dissapears again, with the new EC for ME3 it's far far worse then it's ending, since with with the EC the endings are actually very different.
DA2 epiloge is poor too, if you compare it to the epiloge slides from both ME3:EC and DA:O, it's basically, they all left.

All in all I think DA2 is a poor game compared to DA:O, and to the ME series on which most of it's inner workings seem to be based.
To me DA2 is much worse then ME3, especially now with the EC, ME3's original ending ruined the game true, but DA2 dissapoints on nearly all fronts, while ME3 was 95% a great game before the EC, and now, for me at least, with the EC a 100% great game.
After finishing it once, I have not yet replayed DA2, while I replayed ME1 and 2 several times now, as I have DA:O, and in that I ran all the origin stories as well.

I think that my message to Bioware would be, the fix for ME3 was the EC, and it was done well in my opinion, the fix for DA2 will be DA3, and you need to make one hell of a good game out of it, make us feel invested in our character, make the story flow well, make it a continues whole, not three seperate acts seperated by several years, don't cop out on the ending, if it's the end of that characters story, give us clear epilogues about what happened to them and their companions

#83
jds1bio

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BlackFulcrum wrote...

I think that my message to Bioware would be, the fix for ME3 was the EC, and it was done well in my opinion, the fix for DA2 will be DA3, and you need to make one hell of a good game out of it, make us feel invested in our character, make the story flow well, make it a continues whole, not three seperate acts seperated by several years, don't cop out on the ending, if it's the end of that characters story, give us clear epilogues about what happened to them and their companions


Yeah.  Planning for, or leaning towards, the ending of a main-arc characters' story via DLC doesn't seem to be received very well (FFXIII-2, for instance). 

Also, because games and the stories they tell are leaning towards more emotion-based sources than rule-and-boundary sources, it's probably worth thinking about the "universe" of experience and emotion the game's scope will target for the player. 

Will the next game let you roll your own character with lots of freedom to decide what your character says and does, or will it be a more set character that you can dress up and decide a combat vocation and verbal attitude?  Or, will it be even more restrictive, and focus on honing a few particular sets of skills, or emotions, with the player having little impact on the course or the resulting events of the story?

I think each player has an idea of what they want when it comes to Dragon Age, but I hope the next game resonates well within itself and its world.  We shouldn't need to ask why, in a world where blood mages strike fear and distrust in the hearts of the populace, the player's character doesn't receive the same level of scorn should they openly practice blood magic.

#84
Cimeas

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Even David Gaider said "I think the second chapter in DA2 had the most work done on it so it was the most polished".

Which I guess just shows how it depends on your perspective.


Fair enough.

I was working on an Autobot that would automatically play the game for the DA2XP, and I was using the original campaign for DA2 as a testbed for it.  It was able to get through Act 1 without much issue, but it started to really struggle and needed a lot of manual support come Act 2.

Though it's fair that different aspects of the game saw different amounts of detail, so what I saw and what David saw were two different layers of the same thing.  I don't test content specifically, so those sorts of things are difficult for me to judge iteration on.


Maybe you can't answer this, but how far along was Exalted March?  Like were you just writing/planning or had it gone into actual development?

#85
SirGladiator

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The epilogues in DAO and the expension really did a good job, I havent played the new ME3 epilogues yet so I can't comment, but the point is its nice to see the impact of the decisions that you made, and of course in ME3's case the chance to have a happy ending AT ALL was missing from the original main game, which was the worst part. Its not impossible to have a happy ending without epilogues, obviously, but it sure does help. There were no epilogues in DA2, but when you walk away with your sister and your LI safe and sound, you can at least feel like its a happy ending, because thats as good as its going to get. I do agree that the reason there werent more epilogues is because they probably intended to keep the story going via DLC, which certainly was the right way to go, and I don't understand why that didn't happen. We did get those two great DLCs, but they didn't really advance the story all that much, the Expansion got cancelled, and who knows how many other DLCs we would've gotten after the Expansion that also got the ax. Its just a shame, because we the fans lost, Bioware lost, everybody lost because of that decision. Hopefully when DA3 comes out they'll finally do it the right way. DAO did it right, lots of DLC and a great expansion, the only downside was that the DLC generally wasnt of great quality, the DA2 DLC quality was far better. If we could have, with DA3, the quality of DA2's DLC, with the quantity of DAO's DLC/Expansion, I don't think there's any doubt you'd be talking about one of the greatest games of all time, likely THE greatest.

#86
InfinitePaths

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I personally prefered DA2 story,charethers and the feel over DAO(i loved DAO too).But DAO epiliogs rly did give closure.I liked DA2 ending,Meredith gone,Varric freed,clifhanger with the seekers and what will happen with the mages and the templars.But it didn't had a closure :(.I wanted scenes about what happened to all the people Hawke helped,Varric drinikng with Fenris in a bar.Anders running away from the templars,Merill stoping cutting her hands as usual and coming back to her clan and her clan forgiving her.Aveline and her Husband habing a familly dinner with Isabella.Isabella with Hawke on her ship...I would be so happy if i saw that, but Bioware said NO,instead we are just going to end it with more questions!.The ending was interesting and somewhat closed the plot but still it lacked closure...

#87
Kaiser Shepard

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I was working on an Autobot that would automatically play the game for the DA2XP, and I was using the original campaign for DA2 as a testbed for it.  It was able to get through Act 1 without much issue, but it started to really struggle and needed a lot of manual support come Act 2.

You probably wouldn't have encountered such issues if you used a Decepticon instead. ;)