398 réponses à ce sujet

[gisle]

MisterJB wrote...

Gisle-Aune wrote...
Oh? Where does it say that there's a prothean VI with all the answers in it before you see it? I must have missed that...
/sarcastic

When the only hope of survival lies in a mysterious prothean device and your "allies" are collecting every single piece of prothean technology or relics they can find, maybe, just maybe, the treasure trove of prothean knowledge that you are hiding in your homeworld might just be helpful. It can't hurt to try.

I wouldn't know about it, since I'm not among the highest level of government... like 99.999999% that would affected by most of the suggested punishment.

[Barquiel]

MisterJB wrote...

Then don't ignore it yourself. The game makes it plainly clear for anyone that this is it. This is why the asari are advanced, they have been using this beacon to stay ahead of everyone.

That there is a part of it that is only acessible through the Cyper does not change the fact that Prothean Beacons can be acessed and utilized without it. Otherwise, humanity wouldn't have gotten off Earth when we did, Liara wouldn't know about the Crucible, TIM wouldn't be able to extract information from that same beacon on Mars.

And even had they not known been able to acess it, when they first heard about a prothean device, they should have come out imediatelly and revealed their secret. Billions of lives could have been saved.
But Tevos was concerned about upsetting the balance of power. Well, f*ck her.

The salarians have zero interest in losing the asari as a council race, so your Shepard can rant as much as he wants.

The salarians are another species that made no friends in this war. Humans, turians, volus, krogans, elcors, hanars, drells, quarians, geth all against the salarians and asari?
They can force them out or build their own Council if they want to.

Watching the epilogue for the destroy ending...Hacketts whole "this victory belongs too every civilization (among other slides we see a picture of Thessia here)", and "Let's work together to rebuild everything that was destroyed (we see an asari and a turian cruiser here)", the fact that asari dreadnoughts are part of the new citadel fleet...I'd say the asari are still a council race and they get away with it. Now if the beacon thing will be swept under the rug (my version), if the asari and salarians formed an alliance to avoid "punishment" or if the other races are simply forgiving is something for your headcanon.

Tevos didn't knew anything about the beacon. She tells you she has just received information (existence of the
beacon) from her government when she contacts Shepard after Rannoch, and wants to discuss this on the citadel. She simply didn't know the beacon existed before the war and contacts Shepards as soon as she has received the intel.

Yes, the asari learned everything advanced from the protheans. But so did everyone else. And you think EDI was simply lying when she says Liara would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend the beacon on Thessia ?

Modifié par Barquiel, 01 janvier 2013 - 12:30 .

[xxprokillazxx]

should the Turian government be punished for placing a Nuke on the krogan Homeworld that could kill them all in the push of a button ? No you say well neither should the Asari have any sort of punishment for withholding info.

[MisterJB]

If punishing a murderer means you strip his children of most of their livelihood, you still do it. Sure, the kids are blameless but that doesn't mean a crime can simply go unpunished.

The crimes of a government reflect on their people and the sanctions must affect them as well.
That and I want to take this opportunity to elevate humanity above the asari.

[Barquiel]

MisterJB wrote...

schebobo wrote...
Should the humans be pnished for cerburus?

Usually, I'd say Cerberus did nothing wrong but, just this once, I'll pretend I don't agree with what they did.

The human government did not support Cerberus' actions and was not responsible for them. The asari government was involved in hoarding prothean technology for millenia.

And here I thought Udina is part of the government.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And reading this thread is another reason for taking the refusal option.

[MisterJB]

Barquiel wrote...
Watching the epilogue for the destroy ending...Hacketts whole "this victory belongs too every civilization (among other slides we see a picture of Thessia here)", and "Let's work together to rebuild everything that was destroyed (we see an asari and a turian cruiser here)", the fact that asari dreadnoughts are part of the new citadel fleet...I'd say the asari are still a council race and they get away with it. Now if the beacon thing will be swept under the rug (my version), if the asari and salarians formed an alliance to avoid "punishment" or if the other races are simply forgiving is something for your headcanon.

That is because Bioware purposelly avoided negative consequences in the endings after tremendous backlash caused by the negativity of the originals. We also don't see terrorist attacks against the Reapers caused by the families of the grieving in Control or Synthesis but it would be ridiculous to not expect some at least to happen.

Likewise, the very idea that anyone who is not an asari won't want to take advantage of the discovery of this secret it is absolutely ridiculous.

Tevos didn't knew anything about the beacon. She tells you she has just received information (existence of the
beacon) from her government when she contacts Shepard after Rannoch, and wants to discuss this on the citadel. She simply didn't know the beacon existed before the war and contacts Shepards as soon as she has received the intel.

That is a huge extrapolation. It's just as likely that she received information regarding how close the Reapers were getting and the Matriarchs finally realized that using the other races as meatshields is not going to cut it.
Besides, I don't see how this is relevant. Asari Councilor, Asari Matriarch, it's all the same. The asari hid this secret for millenia.

Yes, the asari learned everything advanced from the protheans. But so did everyone else.

Everyone else obeyed Council Law and did not hoard their prothean technology. The asari broke their own laws.

And you think EDI was simply lying when she says Liara would have needed Shepard's cipher to comprehend the beacon on Thessia ?

I think that:
A- EDI was trying to be nice.
B- That there is a part of it that is only acessible through the Cyper does
not change the fact that Prothean Beacons can be acessed and utilized
without it. Otherwise, humanity wouldn't have gotten off Earth when we
did, Liara wouldn't know about the Crucible, TIM wouldn't be able to
extract information from that same beacon on Mars.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 janvier 2013 - 12:43 .

[MisterJB]

Barquiel wrote...
And here I thought Udina is part of the government.

You are right. I forgot about him. And every single alien race will use this to elevate themselves at the expense of humanity.

[Baldrick67]

Nope.

That beacon was discovered BEFORE the council came into being, before the Asari went to the citadel, and made the laws that all newly discovered prothean tech must be shared.

[legion999]

Baldrick67 wrote...

Nope.

That beacon was discovered BEFORE the council came into being, before the Asari went to the citadel, and made the laws that all newly discovered prothean tech must be shared.

So it's ok as long as they did it before it was bad? As long as they benefit and no one else does?

[Baldrick67]

legion999 wrote...

Baldrick67 wrote...

Nope.

That beacon was discovered BEFORE the council came into being, before the Asari went to the citadel, and made the laws that all newly discovered prothean tech must be shared.

So it's ok as long as they did it before it was bad? As long as they benefit and no one else does?

It wasn't "bad" to withhold new protheans finds only illegal under council laws.

Did Humanity share the mars Archives with the rest of the galaxy ?

If so how was the crucible not discovered under the scrutiny of the galaxies scientists ?

Why was Liara the only non human there in what looked like a alliance military base ?

[MisterJB]

Baldrick67 wrote...
It wasn't "bad" to withhold new protheans finds only illegal under council laws.

It was selfish and hypocrite.

Did Humanity share the mars Archives with the rest of the galaxy ?

Usually I'd say "no". But since we shared the Prothean Beacon on Eden Prime, it's likely we did the same for the one on Mars. It's not like you can keep it a secret, it was all over the news.

If so how was the crucible not discovered under the scrutiny of the galaxies scientists ?

The same reason the Alliance didn't discover it in 30 years. Contrived writing.

Why was Liara the only non human there in what looked like a alliance military base ?

It's doomsday and people want to be with their families. Not searching random prothean beacons that no one could have predicted would be important before Liara found the plans.

[WhiteKnyght]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Alliance engaged in illegal AI research which Shepard shut down on Luna. All governments have their secrets. There isn't one that is completely innocent here.

3.5 years went by since the Battle of the Citadel. Earth Alliance didn't replace a single frigate they lost. It's damned good thing Shepard stole that Cerberus SR-2 isn't it? Or you'd have been without a ship. Or would you have flown around in a taxi?

I'm sure the Salarians have plenty to hide as well. We just weren't shown. But this is outside of the MEU so it doesn't count and it's pure speculation.

You can blame the Asari all you want, and outside of the MEU that's fine. Did they know what that beacon contained other than by hiding it allowed them to be a major power? No. The decision to hide it was made centuries ago to maintain their position. Nothing that any other major power does. You arrived and the world had just come under attack.

Had Kai Leng not arrived and had you not wasted your time chatting with The Illusive Man and instead shot Kai Leng you wouldn't have been in the mess you were in. It's as much your fault as it is the Asari's. The VI may have shut down, and you may not have gotten the information, but neither would Cerberus. You just got your ass handed to you by both Cerberus and your own stupidity.

The question I have is did Liara know anything about the Temple? Probably. And did she know about the prothean symbols in it.? Probably. Why didn't the writers say anything about it earlier? Because they just thought about it at that point of the story so we have to go with what and when we were told it. This is the MEU where CH was running the show without an artistic director not an AU

1. The VI on Luna evolved on its own. It wasn't illegal AI research. It didn't even become a true AI until Cerberus got ahold of it. The Alliance did Illegal AI research on the colony world Sidon about 20 years before Mass Effect 1. They were caught by Saren and reported, but the Alliance was shown leniency by the Council.

2. It doesn't matter if the Salarians do have things to hide. The Asari were arguably the ones who made the rules about withholding Prothean technology. They cant follow their own rules. Plus you're basically using "everybody is doing it" as an excuse. Which doesn't always fly, especially in politics+government.

3. Bull ****. Just because they hadn't activated the VI doesn't mean they had no way of knowing. They were actively extracting data from the archive to stay a step ahead of all the other races in the galaxy. If they'd shared it and all of the Council's best scientists had went to work on it, they could have done it. The fact that Councilor Tevos/Irissa is unreasonably certain that Shepard could use it to find the Catalyst proves it.

3.2. Not to mention, a team of Cerberus scientists in what literally amounts to a few days, broke through the VI's security protocols and learned about the catalyst, when the entire Asari government spent thousands of years studying it just quickly enough to stay a step ahead of everyone else.  That computer is not that hard to crack.

4. You're wrong. By the time Kai Leng arrived, Shepard had convinced Vendetta to assist the Alliance forces. He was going to work with the scientists and interface with the Catalyst to activate the Crucible. But it couldn't do that after what Cerberus did to it.

5. Not 3.5 years. Just a little over three years. It had only been a couple of months since ME1 ended that Shepard and the Normandy got destroyed. ME2 begins exactly two years and twelve days after that. And ME3 begins six months after Arrival and everything is referred to as three years, meaning ME2's main plot takes at least six months chronologically.

5.2. Also it took Cerberus, with all of their resources and near limitless funding two years just to rebuild the Normandy. You really think the Alliance can replace ALL of their lost dreadnoughts and cruisers that quickly?

6. Liara pretty much confirmed that she didn't know what was in the temple. She couldn't decrypt her mother's files on the Temple and her Shadow Broker Intel just said that the temple had government funding. Heck, she didn't even want to face the truth that Athame was a prothean.

[Barquiel]

MisterJB wrote...

That is because Bioware purposelly avoided negative consequences in the endings after tremendous backlash caused by the negativity of the originals. We also don't see terrorist attacks against the Reapers caused by the families of the grieving in Control or Synthesis but it would be ridiculous to not expect some at least to happen.

Likewise, the very idea that anyone who is not an asari won't want to take advantage of the discovery of this secret it is absolutely ridiculous.

They had no problems showing the krogan rebellions 2.0.

And as I have said, the salarians have zero interest in seeing the asari losing their council seat. They would be completely isolated and it would open the door for the krogan. The beacon is not exactly common knowledge either. Shepard knows, Tevos, the matriarchs (if they survived) and the squad Shepard brought...Other people aren't aware of the nature of what happend or what the Asari had done. Even Hackett doesn't seem to know any details.

[WhiteKnyght]

Barquiel wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

That is because Bioware purposelly avoided negative consequences in the endings after tremendous backlash caused by the negativity of the originals. We also don't see terrorist attacks against the Reapers caused by the families of the grieving in Control or Synthesis but it would be ridiculous to not expect some at least to happen.

Likewise, the very idea that anyone who is not an asari won't want to take advantage of the discovery of this secret it is absolutely ridiculous.

They had no problems showing the krogan rebellions 2.0.

And as I have said, the salarians have zero interest in seeing the asari losing their council seat. They would be completely isolated and it would open the door for the krogan. The beacon is not exactly common knowledge either. Shepard knows, Tevos, the matriarchs (if they survived) and the squad Shepard brought...Other people aren't aware of the nature of what happend or what the Asari had done. Even Hackett doesn't seem to know any details.

And they did show Miranda+Oriana doing what appears to be looking for Reaper structural weaknesses in Control.

And they show Miranda with a bunch of Alliance guys in a war room during synthesis. Could easily be a splinter cell that's planning an attack against the Reapers.

Plus there's also the slide of Jack standing in front of a field of graves if you choose for the Grissom Academy students to become an artillery unit instead of back support.

Also I don't forsee Krogan Rebellions 2.0 going too well in Control. The part where Shepard says "I will destroy that threaten the many" and "I will ensure all have a voice in their future" pretty much confirm that.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 01 janvier 2013 - 01:58 .

[Barquiel]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

That is because Bioware purposelly avoided negative consequences in the endings after tremendous backlash caused by the negativity of the originals. We also don't see terrorist attacks against the Reapers caused by the families of the grieving in Control or Synthesis but it would be ridiculous to not expect some at least to happen.

Likewise, the very idea that anyone who is not an asari won't want to take advantage of the discovery of this secret it is absolutely ridiculous.

They had no problems showing the krogan rebellions 2.0.

And as I have said, the salarians have zero interest in seeing the asari losing their council seat. They would be completely isolated and it would open the door for the krogan. The beacon is not exactly common knowledge either. Shepard knows, Tevos, the matriarchs (if they survived) and the squad Shepard brought...Other people aren't aware of the nature of what happend or what the Asari had done. Even Hackett doesn't seem to know any details.

And they did show Miranda+Oriana doing what appears to be looking for Reaper structural weaknesses in Control.

And they show Miranda with a bunch of Alliance guys in a war room during synthesis. Could easily be a splinter cell that's planning an attack against the Reapers.

Also I don't forsee Krogan Rebellions 2.0 going too well in Control. The part where Shepard says "I will destroy that threaten the many" and "I will ensure all have a voice in their future" pretty much confirm that.

I don't see your point. The epilogue shows a few bad (but mostly good) outcomes. And every piece of evidence (citadel fleet, rebuilding slides, Hacketts speech) points toward the asari still being a council race after the war...and not a pariah race.

Modifié par Barquiel, 01 janvier 2013 - 01:56 .

[MisterJB]

Barquiel wrote...
They had no problems showing the krogan rebellions 2.0.

And as I have said, the salarians have zero interest in seeing the asari losing their council seat. They would be completely isolated and it would open the door for the krogan. The beacon is not exactly common knowledge either. Shepard knows, Tevos, the matriarchs (if they survived) and the squad Shepard brought...Other people aren't aware of the nature of what happend or what the Asari had done. Even Hackett doesn't seem to know any details.

Diana Allers makes a history about it. Granted, it might not have involved the Beacon. There are, of course, many ways the galaxy at large can learn about it. For instance, Hacketts knows they are searching for a VI in Chronos, obviously he would need to know where it came from. Then there are intelligency agencies, etc. I doubt it stays secret for long.

While is true that the salarians will, likely, make common cause with the asari, the humans, turians, krogan, quarian are all likely to form close alliances with deal with any decrease in the strenght of their military, Reaper technology literally rained from the sky, borders were changed, etc, etc, etc.
Ultimately, my point is that, logically, the galaxy is entering an age of turmoil where changes in the ruling species are more than likely. It's not going to be an age of peace and cooperation and understanding and, due to both leading the failed Council and their hipocrisy and selfishness, the asari are likely to earn quite a bit of antagonism.

[MisterJB]

Barquiel wrote...
I don't see your point. The epilogue shows a few bad (but mostly good) outcomes. And every piece of evidence (citadel fleet, rebuilding slides, Hacketts speech) points toward the asari still being a council race after the war...and not a pariah race.

The thing is, that is incredibly stupid. After WW2, came a Cold War. The North and South of USA didn't just shake hands, all hostilities forgotten, after the Civil War. The last war in the Iberian Peninsula between its two countries was centuries ago and we still look at each other with uneasy eyes.
After this huge war where alliances were not honored, the dirts of every race were brought to light, crimes were commited, the entire political landscape of the galaxy affected...and we are supposed to believe that everyone will just be friends afterwards?
C'mon, you have to admit, that is simply because Bioware was scared of more backlash after people complained about the hopelessness of the original endings.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 janvier 2013 - 02:03 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Barquiel wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

That is because Bioware purposelly avoided negative consequences in the endings after tremendous backlash caused by the negativity of the originals. We also don't see terrorist attacks against the Reapers caused by the families of the grieving in Control or Synthesis but it would be ridiculous to not expect some at least to happen.

Likewise, the very idea that anyone who is not an asari won't want to take advantage of the discovery of this secret it is absolutely ridiculous.

They had no problems showing the krogan rebellions 2.0.

And as I have said, the salarians have zero interest in seeing the asari losing their council seat. They would be completely isolated and it would open the door for the krogan. The beacon is not exactly common knowledge either. Shepard knows, Tevos, the matriarchs (if they survived) and the squad Shepard brought...Other people aren't aware of the nature of what happend or what the Asari had done. Even Hackett doesn't seem to know any details.

And they did show Miranda+Oriana doing what appears to be looking for Reaper structural weaknesses in Control.

And they show Miranda with a bunch of Alliance guys in a war room during synthesis. Could easily be a splinter cell that's planning an attack against the Reapers.

Also I don't forsee Krogan Rebellions 2.0 going too well in Control. The part where Shepard says "I will destroy that threaten the many" and "I will ensure all have a voice in their future" pretty much confirm that.

I don't see your point. The epilogue shows a few bad (but mostly good) outcomes. And every piece of evidence (citadel fleet, rebuilding slides, Hacketts speech) points toward the asari still being a council race after the war...and not a pariah race.

I was adding to your point. MisterJB said Bioware showed no negative consquences in Extended Cut. You pointed out Krogan Rebellions 2.0.

He also specifically mentioned nobody plotting against the Reapers. I proved otherwise.

Also Jack standing in front of a graveyard where her students are is pretty sad too. Only happens if you Renegade and put them on the front lines.

As for the Asari, I believe the term forgive and forget is the policy the council races take after the war. They need to focus on rebuilding and penalizing them is detrimental to that. Besides, the topic is about if the Asari SHOULD be punished, not ARE THEY punished.

[Barquiel]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I was adding to your point. MisterJB said Bioware showed no negative consquences in Extended Cut. You pointed out Krogan Rebellions 2.0.

He also specifically mentioned nobody plotting against the Reapers. I proved otherwise.

Also Jack standing in front of a graveyard where her students are is pretty sad too. Only happens if you Renegade and put them on the front lines.

As for the Asari, I believe the term forgive and forget is the policy the council races take after the war. They need to focus on rebuilding and penalizing them is detrimental to that. Besides, the topic is about if the Asari SHOULD be punished, not ARE THEY punished.

Oh, sorry..I have misunderstood you then;)

[WhiteKnyght]

Also the argument saying that humanity would have done the same is simply stupid. Especially considering the very beginning of the first game shows them doing the exact opposite. The Alliance believed the beacon on Eden Prime was the discovery of the century, and Shepard can even ask why they don't keep it for themselves. But they were going to share it, until it blew up.

Also the archives on Mars were no secret to the rest of the galaxy. By the time humanity had made first contact with the Turians they believed they had deciphered all of the data from the cache. But they discovered more around ME2's time. And Liara was there studying it in ME3.

[Barquiel]

MisterJB wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
I don't see your point. The epilogue shows a few bad (but mostly good) outcomes. And every piece of evidence (citadel fleet, rebuilding slides, Hacketts speech) points toward the asari still being a council race after the war...and not a pariah race.

The thing is, that is incredibly stupid. After WW2, came a Cold War. The North and South of USA didn't just shake hands, all hostilities forgotten, after the Civil War. The last war in the Iberian Peninsula between its two countries was centuries ago and we still look at each other with uneasy eyes.
After this huge war where alliances were not honored, the dirts of every race were brought to light, crimes were commited, the entire political landscape of the galaxy affected...and we are supposed to believe that everyone will just be friends afterwards?
C'mon, you have to admit, that is simply because Bioware was scared of more backlash after people complained about the hopelessness of the original endings.

Realistic? maybe not...

But there are also other examples. Europe after the Second World War and the peaceful reconciliation between Germany and France comes to my mind. Today, war between Germany and France is unthinkable.

Maybe rebuilding the Mass Relay network brings the major races together (this will take some time and the citadel races have to cooperate here).

[WhiteKnyght]

Barquiel wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
I don't see your point. The epilogue shows a few bad (but mostly good) outcomes. And every piece of evidence (citadel fleet, rebuilding slides, Hacketts speech) points toward the asari still being a council race after the war...and not a pariah race.

The thing is, that is incredibly stupid. After WW2, came a Cold War. The North and South of USA didn't just shake hands, all hostilities forgotten, after the Civil War. The last war in the Iberian Peninsula between its two countries was centuries ago and we still look at each other with uneasy eyes.
After this huge war where alliances were not honored, the dirts of every race were brought to light, crimes were commited, the entire political landscape of the galaxy affected...and we are supposed to believe that everyone will just be friends afterwards?
C'mon, you have to admit, that is simply because Bioware was scared of more backlash after people complained about the hopelessness of the original endings.

Realistic? maybe not...

But there are also other examples. Europe after the Second World War and the peaceful reconciliation between Germany and France comes to my mind. Today, war between Germany and France is unthinkable.

Maybe rebuilding the Mass Relay network brings the major races together (this will take some time and the citadel races have to cooperate here).

*Show slide of Citadel in ruins*

Hackett: If we can lay down our grievances long enough to deal with a threat like the Reapers, imagine what we can do now that they are defeated.

*cue slide of Citadel fully restored*

Destroy epilogue is all about peace and cooperation between the species.

Control basically has Shepard making the Reapers do all the hard work. And Synthesis shows the Reapers assisting the species willingly.

Though I don't imagine synthesis being 100% okay from the beginning, EDI's dialogue was vague, just saying that the Reapers were rebuilding and sharing information. And she did say there were still problems. I would probably compare it to the second half of the Macross Saga of Robotech(old Sci-Fi anime if any of you don't know.) Two years after the war with the Zendradi, they had begun living alongside humans and helped to rebuild the world after their people had virtually destroyed it(orbital bombardment by millions of spaceships), but there was still some tensions between humans and the Zentradi which caused small scale conflicts. That is until Khyron united the human haters and started an armed revolt, but it was put down.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 01 janvier 2013 - 02:39 .

[VirtualSoldier27]

Barquiel wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
I don't see your point. The epilogue shows a few bad (but mostly good) outcomes. And every piece of evidence (citadel fleet, rebuilding slides, Hacketts speech) points toward the asari still being a council race after the war...and not a pariah race.

The thing is, that is incredibly stupid. After WW2, came a Cold War. The North and South of USA didn't just shake hands, all hostilities forgotten, after the Civil War. The last war in the Iberian Peninsula between its two countries was centuries ago and we still look at each other with uneasy eyes.
After this huge war where alliances were not honored, the dirts of every race were brought to light, crimes were commited, the entire political landscape of the galaxy affected...and we are supposed to believe that everyone will just be friends afterwards?
C'mon, you have to admit, that is simply because Bioware was scared of more backlash after people complained about the hopelessness of the original endings.

Realistic? maybe not...

But there are also other examples. Europe after the Second World War and the peaceful reconciliation between Germany and France comes to my mind. Today, war between Germany and France is unthinkable.

Maybe rebuilding the Mass Relay network brings the major races together (this will take some time and the citadel races have to cooperate here).

all that history proves, is that Allies become Enemies,and Enemies Become Allies. And Russia was never and ally,they were just a little less evil than Hitler. just like Paragon Shepard would never agree to work with Aria and her merc thugs under any less circumstances than a galactic reaper invasion.  When it was over he wouldn't think twice about going back to dispising them

Modifié par VirtualSoldier27, 01 janvier 2013 - 02:45 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Just give them whatever the standard punishment is for concealing Prothean tech. Anything less just encourages governments to hide their wrongdoings. Anything more is probably overkill.