398 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Seriously, you are missing the greatest advantage of Sanctuary. It is turning useless, resource consuming refugees into super soldiers.
Not only can those resources now be spent in fighting the actual war but there are also super soldiers fighting in said war.
It's brilliant.

[fiendishchicken]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

No, the number one war goal is destroying the reapers.  Civilian survival is tertiary at best.

Not the way I fought it.

Well, that's how you fought.

It's a common want to save as many as possible. But in a war as this, that's not possible. 

I may be a rather relentless individual of course. If I had the choice between saving a city or destroying the enemies army, I'd choose to attack the enemy army every time. I'll get out as many civilians as I can without causing a significant drain on resources or relinquishing an advantage to the enemy. 

That said, Cerberus exceeded their goals at Sanctuary. As I mentioned, I support them, much more so than the alliance (even though I view them as ultimately one and the same), but Cerberus was getting to brute force results. They were more or less throwing civilians at the Reapers to further their goals.

[Hey]

MisterJB wrote...

Seriously, you are missing the greatest advantage of Sanctuary. It is turning useless, resource consuming refugees into super soldiers.
Not only can those resources now be spent in fighting the actual war but there are also super soldiers fighting in said war.
It's brilliant.

damn...

[Steelcan]

End of the galaxy is no time for volunteers.

And you can't say there was no gain.  They found out how to control reapers

Modifié par Steelcan, 01 janvier 2013 - 07:00 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

Seriously, you are missing the greatest advantage of Sanctuary. It is turning useless, resource consuming refugees into super soldiers.
Not only can those resources now be spent in fighting the actual war but there are also super soldiers fighting in said war.
It's brilliant.

Except that my entire job consists of making sure those refugees survive. Anyone harming them, no matter how they try to justify themselves, is going down.

[fiendishchicken]

MisterJB wrote...

Seriously, you are missing the greatest advantage of Sanctuary. It is turning useless, resource consuming refugees into super soldiers.
Not only can those resources now be spent in fighting the actual war but there are also super soldiers fighting in said war.
It's brilliant.

One flaw there cowboy. You don't have to use said refugee's in a death camp where only half are used to make soldier while the other half get their huskified brain probed. 

It would be much more acceptable to utilize them as a resource in their own. Turn them to something productive. You're going to need farmers to grow food for the Army, and people to build war material (ships, guns, tanks), and eventually new boots and guns down range. 

That's the problem with the refugee's; they're not being utilized at all. Press them into some form of service or another.

[MisterJB]

Are you missing the part where there are now super soldiers capable of holding locations, achieve objectives, teat through Reapers ground forces being created in mass? How this is no actual gain?

I'll grant you they were not used in the most correct manner but that is bad writing. Would you complain so much were they being used at Shepard's command?
Some where volunteer but I expect not enough.

I remember giving speeches about how we need to try to save everyone we can, how we can't afford to turn war into a numbers game and how we all need to stick together.

Yes, let's all defeat the Reapers through the power of friendship.
Ok, that was a tad unnacessary but you get my point.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 janvier 2013 - 07:02 .

[Steelcan]

fiendishchicken wrote...

One flaw there cowboy. You don't have to use said refugee's in a death camp where only half are used to make soldier while the other half get their huskified brain probed. 

It would be much more acceptable to utilize them as a resource in their own. Turn them to something productive. You're going to need farmers to grow food for the Army, and people to build war material (ships, guns, tanks), and eventually new boots and guns down range. 

That's the problem with the refugee's; they're not being utilized at all. Press them into some form of service or another.

We both know this war would be won or lost before that would make any difference at all

[Steelcan]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Seriously, you are missing the greatest advantage of Sanctuary. It is turning useless, resource consuming refugees into super soldiers.
Not only can those resources now be spent in fighting the actual war but there are also super soldiers fighting in said war.
It's brilliant.

Except that my entire job consists of making sure those refugees survive. Anyone harming them, no matter how they try to justify themselves, is going down.

[fiendishchicken]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Except that my entire job consists of making sure those refugees survive. Anyone harming them, no matter how they try to justify themselves, is going down.

That's not the job at all. The job is to 1) Defeat the Reapers and 2) Ensure the survival of the species. 

If they're better utilized as Reaper bait to buy our armed forces time to withdraw, regroup, and rearm, then I'm perfectly fine leaving them stranded on a planet about to be attacked.

The only problem is that they are a new source of husks for the Reapers. 

Nuclear mines would work best. Wipe out the leftover population (denying their use by the Reapers) and taking out Reapers in atmosphere (where a nuke works best, and would be a viable option against a Reaper).

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

Are you missing the part where there are now super soldiers capable of holding locations, achieve objectives, teat through Reapers ground forces being created in mass? How this is no actual gain?

What gain did I see?

MisterJB wrote...
I'll grant you they were not used in the most correct manner but that is bad writing. Would you complain so much were they being used at Shepard's command?

Yes. Yes I would. Civilians aren't resources. They're the reason we're fighting this war.

MisterJB wrote...
Yes, let's all defeat the Reapers through the power of friendship.
Ok, that was a tad unnacessary but you get my point.

Actually, that's exactly how we ended up doing it. Pulled the whole thing off while minimizing casualties, maintaining the moral high ground, and ended up with a nice, clean victory. Cerberus got in the way, wasted time and resources, and killed a bunch of people for no reason.

[MisterJB]

fiendishchicken wrote...
One flaw there cowboy. You don't have to use said refugee's in a death camp where only half are used to make soldier while the other half get their huskified brain probed. 

It would be much more acceptable to utilize them as a resource in their own. Turn them to something productive. You're going to need farmers to grow food for the Army, and people to build war material (ships, guns, tanks), and eventually new boots and guns down range. 

That's the problem with the refugee's; they're not being utilized at all. Press them into some form of service or another.

First, we do hear about refugees taking jobs here and there to help the war effort.
Second, it's the 22th century. Most of those jobs are automatic, yes, even growing food.
And third, whatever jobs they will be assigned, they can now perform much better with Reaper technology upgrading their physical capabilities.

[Steelcan]

fiendishchicken wrote...

That's not the job at all. The job is to 1) Defeat the Reapers and 2) Ensure the survival of the species. 

If they're better utilized as Reaper bait to buy our armed forces time to withdraw, regroup, and rearm, then I'm perfectly fine leaving them stranded on a planet about to be attacked.

The only problem is that they are a new source of husks for the Reapers. 

Nuclear mines would work best. Wipe out the leftover population (denying their use by the Reapers) and taking out Reapers in atmosphere (where a nuke works best, and would be a viable option against a Reaper).

Apparantly it's better to just kill yourselves with nukes, don't bother killing reapers with them

[fiendishchicken]

Steelcan wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

One flaw there cowboy. You don't have to use said refugee's in a death camp where only half are used to make soldier while the other half get their huskified brain probed. 

It would be much more acceptable to utilize them as a resource in their own. Turn them to something productive. You're going to need farmers to grow food for the Army, and people to build war material (ships, guns, tanks), and eventually new boots and guns down range. 

That's the problem with the refugee's; they're not being utilized at all. Press them into some form of service or another.

We both know this war would be won or lost before that would make any difference at all

Oh contrare. Read up on your history man. Look at how the War Effort in WWII boosted American production and utility by nearly 400-fold of the prewar rates. It jumped nearly 180 percent in the first 6 months of the war alone. Take this, and apply it to the colonial resources, robotic technology, and quick, efficient ways to modify and change production supply's via omni-gel. It would be a mass conversion of goods and resources to full wartime production. It would also be a much more rapid and efficient conversion as well.

[Steelcan]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Oh contrare. Read up on your history man. Look at how the War Effort in WWII boosted American production and utility by nearly 400-fold of the prewar rates. It jumped nearly 180 percent in the first 6 months of the war alone. Take this, and apply it to the colonial resources, robotic technology, and quick, efficient ways to modify and change production supply's via omni-gel. It would be a mass conversion of goods and resources to full wartime production. It would also be a much more rapid and efficient conversion as well.

Except America was very far removed from the front lines.  They really didnt have the issue of you know being right next to their enemies.   American factories and farms weren't bombed and burned.

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Yes. Yes I would. Civilians aren't resources. They're the reason we're fighting this war.

No, we're fighting this war to ensure the continuation of the human species.
The eleven billion on Earth trump the millions in space.

Actually, that's exactly how we ended up doing it. Pulled the whole thing off while minimizing casualties, maintaining the moral high ground, and ended up with a nice, clean victory. Cerberus got in the way, wasted time and resources, and killed a bunch of people for no reason.

Well, no one can acuse ME3 of being a realistic portrayal of war.
Thankfully, you can avoid playing like this most of the time. In a real war, there are no clean victories and no one has the moral high ground.

[Hey]

MisterJB wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Yes. Yes I would. Civilians aren't resources. They're the reason we're fighting this war.

No, we're fighting this war to ensure the continuation of the human species.
The eleven billion on Earth trump the millions in space.

Actually, that's exactly how we ended up doing it. Pulled the whole thing off while minimizing casualties, maintaining the moral high ground, and ended up with a nice, clean victory. Cerberus got in the way, wasted time and resources, and killed a bunch of people for no reason.

Well, no one can acuse ME3 of being a realistic portrayal of war.
Thankfully, you can avoid playing like this most of the time. In a real war, there are no clean victories and no one has the moral high ground.

this is all true.  can you imagine what choices you really would have to make in a war like this... I don't think I'd be cut out for it.  Cold as ice.  No wavering.   Brutal

kind of wish they would have built more choices like this into it

[fiendishchicken]

MisterJB wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
One flaw there cowboy. You don't have to use said refugee's in a death camp where only half are used to make soldier while the other half get their huskified brain probed. 

It would be much more acceptable to utilize them as a resource in their own. Turn them to something productive. You're going to need farmers to grow food for the Army, and people to build war material (ships, guns, tanks), and eventually new boots and guns down range. 

That's the problem with the refugee's; they're not being utilized at all. Press them into some form of service or another.

First, we do hear about refugees taking jobs here and there to help the war effort.
Second, it's the 22th century. Most of those jobs are automatic, yes, even growing food.
And third, whatever jobs they will be assigned, they can now perform much better with Reaper technology upgrading their physical capabilities.

Well, we need to change 'here and there' with 'everyone and everywhere'.
They don't HAVE to do anything, but then again, they can get sent to a location in the Reapers path, where they'll keep the Reapers busy by being processed, indoctrinated, huskified, etc.

Yes it's automatic. Add the supplement of people getting more food and contributing more towards production. They need to strike a balance with the production possibilities curve to where they can get the most resources from the most maximum number of workers without taking a loss in production. Excess population has 2 choices if they don't go into wartime industry: join the military, or get left on a planet as Reaper bait. All physically able and mentally and emotionally sound members of the population are conscripted, and the weak links are severed.

And I'd rather not have my military forces with Reaper stuff in their bodies. That kinda leads to indoctrination.

[fiendishchicken]

Steelcan wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Oh contrare. Read up on your history man. Look at how the War Effort in WWII boosted American production and utility by nearly 400-fold of the prewar rates. It jumped nearly 180 percent in the first 6 months of the war alone. Take this, and apply it to the colonial resources, robotic technology, and quick, efficient ways to modify and change production supply's via omni-gel. It would be a mass conversion of goods and resources to full wartime production. It would also be a much more rapid and efficient conversion as well.

Except America was very far removed from the front lines.  They really didnt have the issue of you know being right next to their enemies.   American factories and farms weren't bombed and burned.

No they didn't. We have the advantage of several light years distance between star systems. And as shown by the game, the Reapers can't be everywhere at once. They're going to focus their efforts against major military targets and population centers. There are plenty of resource rich planets out there that can be used to fuel the war effort without drawing the Reapers attention.

[MisterJB]

Festae9 wrote...
this is all true.  can you imagine what choices you really would have to make in a war like this... I don't think I'd be cut out for it.  Cold as ice.  No wavering.   Brutal
kind of wish they would have built more choices like this into it

Instead, we've got mooks to shoot.
They really ruined what should have been the highlight of the series. Well, shooting Mordin will have to remain as my favorite moment in ME3.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Anyway, to bring this back to the original topic, I support prosecuting the asari under the standing law. I also support punishing any humans involved with Cerberus and any quarians involved in breaking the treaty.

Sorry, Tali, but if you thought that making peace with the geth and doing their utmost to help the anti-Reaper effort would get your people any special treatment, you were wrong. Same for you, Liara.

[Hey]

MisterJB wrote...

Festae9 wrote...
this is all true.  can you imagine what choices you really would have to make in a war like this... I don't think I'd be cut out for it.  Cold as ice.  No wavering.   Brutal
kind of wish they would have built more choices like this into it

Instead, we've got mooks to shoot.
They really ruined what should have been the highlight of the series. Well, shooting Mordin will have to remain as my favorite moment in ME3.

no doubt man.  I think they coddle us too much, but if these choices start in ME3 then I'm sure people wouldn't like it because it doesn't stay to the themes of Shep can win anything.  Next game series they should be more harcore.. Would be fun. 

[Steelcan]

fiendishchicken wrote...

No they didn't. We have the advantage of several light years distance between star systems. And as shown by the game, the Reapers can't be everywhere at once. They're going to focus their efforts against major military targets and population centers. There are plenty of resource rich planets out there that can be used to fuel the war effort without drawing the Reapers attention.

And once the reapers learn of its importance that planet will be bombed back to the Stone Age.  See Allers on Bekenstein.

Modifié par Steelcan, 01 janvier 2013 - 07:28 .

[MisterJB]

Festae9 wrote...
no doubt man.  I think they coddle us too much, but if these choices start in ME3 then I'm sure people wouldn't like it because it doesn't stay to the themes of Shep can win anything.  Next game series they should be more harcore.. Would be fun. 

I firmly believe that a great portion of the ending backlash was due to the fact there was no perfect choice.

DAO actually managed to pull a war story better than ME3 in many ways. By keeping the Anvil, you can basically do what TIM is doing with Reaper tech.

[Steelcan]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Anyway, to bring this back to the original topic, I support prosecuting the asari under the standing law. I also support punishing any humans involved with Cerberus and any quarians involved in breaking the treaty.

Sorry, Tali, but if you thought that making peace with the geth and doing their utmost to help the anti-Reaper effort would get your people any special treatment, you were wrong. Same for you, Liara.

Well the geth Treaty is a null issue after the war, especially if you picked Destroy.  Besides the treaty may be more of a pact, not necessarily a binding agreement

And the quarians are outside Citadel authority, they can't be prosecuted by the Council

Modifié par Steelcan, 01 janvier 2013 - 07:30 .