418 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

 The title of this thread comes from a song from one of Roger Waters solo efforts, Radio K.A.O.S.

I've seen some discussion and concern about the High EMS Destroy ending, and everyone's favorite nail biter. I'm not going to discuss ethics here, but rather the sequence of events.

They're out of order, and for a reason.

What the hell are you talking about?

Intentional manipulation of narrative sequence of course.  What does this mean? Most narratives follow a simple route of A to Z, without any trepadation. Sometimes however, a director chooses to mix things up (it's art!). One might do this for several reasons. To create a sense of distortion (David Lynch), Mystery (your basic mystery story) or in drama, to confirm something.

This is the last image we see.

http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

Even though this is the last image we see, it does NOT take place last in the narrative. In fact, it occurs BEFORE the scene preceding it.

Let's share it, together.

Here is the sequence, as presented via the narrative.

Catalyst -> Ending choice -> Galaxy Rebuilding -> Plaque scene -> Breath scene

This is out of sequence. The correct order is as follows.

Catalyst -> Ending choice -> Breath Scene -> Plaque scene -> Galaxy Rebuilding

Bioware has done this to you before ladies and gentlemen. 

Wait, what?

You bet your butt they have. Remember the suicide mission? How they DIDN'T tell you right away who made it? If you did everything right?

That's a narrative trick to create suspense. It's a big sigh of relief when you go, "Thank God, everyone made it out." Now, when we look at it from this perspective, we can see why Bioware would do this. Shepard is alive, and has made it out, and the preceding plaque scene confirms it within the context of the narrative.

Everything that happens next is up to you. It takes place inside your head. I'd imagine Miranda is going to have words for my Shepard once he wakes up.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 30 juin 2012 - 02:40 .

[AscalonD]

I don't know, I am still confused and somewhat hurt over the endings, it's like date rape by someone you love, but they made it up by taking you to dinner, and then banging you again. It's like... I don't know how to describe it

Modifié par AscalonD, 30 juin 2012 - 02:41 .

[nitefyre410]

If you seen enough movies you have seen this trick done a million times

[Taboo]

nitefyre410 wrote...

If you seen enough movies you have seen this trick done a million times

Unfortunately, people haven't picked this up, or that they've seen it before.

[zambot]

AscalonD wrote...

I don't know, I am still confused and somewhat hurt over the endings, it's like date rape by someone you love, but they made it up by taking you to dinner, and then banging you again. It's like... I don't know how to describe it

GD, there is nothing at all like rape in the ME3 endings.  Not this.  Not synthesis.  
Jeezus stop comparing it to rape already. Do you actually know anyone who has been raped before? This is insulting as all hell.  

[MystEU]

Is it correct to assume that if you get the breath scene, your plaque is never put up in the Normandy? In my ending, I went Destroy and got the breath scene, but Tali never actually put the thing above Anderson's. I figure that is the connection to the implied survival of Shepard, eh?

[Taboo]

MystEU wrote...

Is it correct to assume that if you get the breath scene, your plaque is never put up in the Normandy? In my ending, I went Destroy and got the breath scene, but Tali never actually put the thing above Anderson's. I figure that is the connection to the implied survival of Shepard, eh?

Yes. This ISN'T difficult to do people.

[devSin]

The problem is that the scene is reinforced by nothing that occurs previous. If one thing in the prior stream had made note of it, I think it would have been fine.

A near carcass shifting in some unidentifiable rubble is meaningless when everything else neglects it. The epilogue speech makes no mention of Shepard's survival. The squad somehow has heard that Anderson is dead but hasn't heard that Shepard is alive, meaning Shepard's body still hasn't been found by the time the Normandy is ready to depart the planet. And we see nothing that tells us what actually happens to Shepard.

I think this scene was created simply to convey that Shepard didn't die in the explosion. It says nothing as to whether Shepard actually lives, and that's what was needed for the extended cut.

[KingNothing125]

I was originally perturbed by the chronological misalignment of the Shep Lives ending, but once I saw that the Control/Synthesis memorial wall scenes were different, I changed my mind and now think it's fine.

The breath scene was intended as a cliffhanger, like Barbossa coming down the stairs at the end of Pirates 2. The breath scene doesn't carry as much weight if you put it anywhere else. It's still supposed to be a cliffhanger. You're supposed to see the Destroy memorial scene, think "omg is Shepard dead?? " and then pow, breath scene.

[zambot]

devSin wrote...

The problem is that the scene is reinforced by nothing that occurs previous. If one thing in the prior stream had made note of it, I think it would have been fine.

A near carcass shifting in some unidentifiable rubble is meaningless when everything else neglects it. The epilogue speech makes no mention of Shepard's survival. The squad somehow has heard that Anderson is dead but hasn't heard that Shepard is alive, meaning Shepard's body still hasn't been found by the time the Normandy is ready to depart the planet. And we see nothing that tells us what actually happens to Shepard.

I think this scene was created simply to convey that Shepard didn't die in the explosion. It says nothing as to whether Shepard actually lives, and that's what was needed for the extended cut.

Do you really believe they would show Shepard alive for a moment if he/she did not actually survive?

[JBONE29]

I still say the breath scene should have either come right before the memorial scene or right before the monologue.

[o Ventus]

zambot wrote...

AscalonD wrote...

I don't know, I am still confused and somewhat hurt over the endings, it's like date rape by someone you love, but they made it up by taking you to dinner, and then banging you again. It's like... I don't know how to describe it

GD, there is nothing at all like rape in the ME3 endings.  Not this.  Not synthesis.  
Jeezus stop comparing it to rape already. Do you actually know anyone who has been raped before? This is insulting as all hell.  

Not all rape is sexual.

/notilliterate

[Taboo]

Did anyone see Shepard avoiding the explosion with a High EMS?

NOOOOO?

[lordofdogtown19]

Good post Taboo. I don't see how people didn't see this at first

[3DandBeyond]

AscalonD wrote...

I don't know, I am still confused and somewhat hurt over the endings, it's like date rape by someone you love, but they made it up by taking you to dinner, and then banging you again. It's like... I don't know how to describe it

I agree there is a lot of hurt over this notion that in all the other endings we clearly see what happens to Shepard, but in the ending that was their big teaser moment, we didn't deserve one?

Destroy as a choice has its flaws and I don't like killing EDI and the Geth, but it was always the goal of everyone, including EDI and the Geth (through Legion's help), if played that way.  So, you decide to do the unthinkable (the other choices aren't any better still IMO) and you tell your Shepard to Destroy the reapers.  Well, apparently this is selfish.  Never mind that Shepard has been beaten, bludgeoned, shot, killed, and sacrificed everything for everyone several times over in many cases.  Now, Shepard carries through on what everyone wanted.  EDI said she was ready to die.  Legion showed that the Geth might accept that as well--this is what I can convince myself of.  But in doing it Shepard is treated like garbage.  The hero of 100 plus hours of gameplay, 5 years of player wait time, and years of in game sacrifice and the redemption of others have come down to the writers treating Shepard like crap, if Shepard chooses to live by Destroying the reapers. 

They promised closure, but only gave it to those that wanted what I still see as darker endings.  Control is not upbeat and is a problematic choice, still.  Synthesis is still like molestation.  And Destroy was always what Shepard was sent to and even ordered to do.  So, of course a hero is to be treated like crap.

[WhereEternityEnds]

There's nothing to "understand" about the breath scene. It's open ended and therefore, is not suitable for the end of a freakin trilogy. I invested too many years into this series to walk away "imagining" what Shepard "could" be doing after he spends about a year in the hospital recovering from God knows what. It is a total cop out. Shepard deserves, at the very least, more closure than that.

[MystEU]

Shepard walks into the implied sunset for that particular ending. That's good enough for me, along with the placement in the narrative, especially since the endings finally feel like you've actually "won." The presentation of each ending also better illustrates what line you have to cross to achieve victory. Each one is something else with its own downside. The EC execution makes that so much better.

[OnelShot]

Yeah kinda sad how people miss how they did this.

[Zulmoka531]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Did anyone see Shepard avoiding the explosion with a High EMS?

NOOOOO?

I'm just curious as to why mine even began walking into an explosion. I mean I know I've made him do stupid things like...dancing and drinking radioactive booze..but even cavemen knew that fire  meant hot and hot meant hurt!.

Caveman Shepard no like fireball, me shoot pipe, make everything boom!

[Iakus]

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

There's nothing to "understand" about the breath scene. It's open ended and therefore, is not suitable for the end of a freakin trilogy. I invested too many years into this series to walk away "imagining" what Shepard "could" be doing after he spends about a year in the hospital recovering from God knows what. It is a total cop out. Shepard deserves, at the very least, more closure than that.

This.

Part of the reason why the original endings were so terrible is they were left open to "speculations"  This is the end of the story, there will be no more SHepard stories.  In the only ending where SHepard can live, this is not an appropriate spot to play mind games.

[WhereEternityEnds]

MystEU wrote...

Shepard walks into the implied sunset for that particular ending. That's good enough for me, along with the placement in the narrative, especially since the endings finally feel like you've actually "won." The presentation of each ending also better illustrates what line you have to cross to achieve victory. Each one is something else with its own downside. The EC execution makes that so much better.

That's just it though.  In NONE of the endings did I feel like I actually "won".  Control is too Machievellian, Synthesis is like taking a big dump on whatever integrity and conviction Shepard possessed, and Destroy ends with a freakin cliffhanger.  It is essentially....

Lose/Lose/Lose

[devSin]

zambot wrote...

Do you really believe they would show Shepard alive for a moment if he/she did not actually survive?

No, I believe they don't actually care whether Shepard goes on to live or not.

Their narrative stops at the part where he didn't immediately die in the blast. The rest of it is unwritten. Did he get rescued? Did he recover? Did the Keepers find him and haul his body to the protein vats? Did he bleed out? Did he lose both his legs and both his arms and most of his face? Does he suffocate in a vacuum? Does he die of starvation trapped under a mountain of rubble?

Those pages aren't implied. They simply don't exist. You can imagine how Shepard was found and everybody is happy, but it's not part of the story, any more than any of the other scenarios.

The extended cut was supposed to offer clarity and closure, and in this instance, they refused to do so.

Modifié par devSin, 30 juin 2012 - 03:00 .

[Iakus]

devSin wrote...

zambot wrote...

Do you really believe they would show Shepard alive for a moment if he/she did not actually survive?

No, I believe they don't actually care whether Shepard goes on to live or not.

Their narrative stops at the part where he didn't immediately die in the blast. The rest of it is unwritten. Did he get rescued? Did he recover? Did the Keepers find him and haul his body to the protein vats? Did he bleed out? Did he lose both his legs and both his arms and most of his face? Does he suffocate in a vacuum? Does he die of starvation trapped under a mountain of rubble?

Those pages aren't implied. They simply don't exist. You can imagine how Shepard was found and everybody is happy, but it's not part of the story, any more than any of the other scenarios.

It's like I've said.

Only dead Shepards get closure.  Bioware doesn't care about the live ones.

[Taboo]

This reminds me of conversations I have with my mother. 

You don't need to be spoon fed everything.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 30 juin 2012 - 03:00 .

[WhereEternityEnds]

Taboo, you're talking about two ends of a spectrum here. Spoon feeding does equate to giving the player some conclusion that leaves him/her satisfied.