418 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bioware telling you that he/she is alive and that a reunion can take place is not enough?

Can we not do this in our heads?

Have we forgotten how to participate in art?

You are purposely ignoring what people are saying to be antagonistic at this point.  You don't need it, I get that.  I appreciate that.  Give others some sort of decency and actually try to see what they are saying.

And players had been begging for a reunion closure scene before the EC.  Jessica said there would be one.  People found out there wasn't and she changed her story.  This is cruel.

Video games can be art.   But, art speaks for itself.  It doesn't need someone to go on twitter to give a play by play of what others don't understand or tell people that wanted to see something that they didn't need to see it.  Get this, I have as much "right" to want or need to see something as you have not to care about it.

ME was a visual, interactive story.  If we are meant to use our imagination for a bunch of stuff than that should have been the clear intent of the game all along.  It wasn't.  We were clearly shown things and as Conrad said if we lacked understanding we could ask something again and get the answer repeated for us.  We saw Shepard's innards being rebuilt.  In the other endings we saw Shepard disintegrate-we get the play by play and I'm surprised they didn't repeat it in slow motion so we didn't miss anything.  In Destroy, we see a torso gasp.  They do not at all compare.  Why didn't people have to imagine Shepard being disintegrated?

[Iakus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bioware telling you that he/she is alive and that a reunion can take place is not enough?

No it's not, I need Mass Effect 3 to tell me that.  Not a tweet saying "Speculate!"

Can we not do this in our heads?

If that was enough, the original endings would have been fine

Have we forgotten how to participate in art?

This is me participating in art:  "There's a piece here that's missing"

[Love Sherri]

Imagine.... Lord of the Rings....Frodo, who is hanging on the edge of Sammath Naur, pending a fall into the fiery depths right after Gollum, grasps Sam's hand...black screen, credits roll, the end.

THAT would be a satisfying conclusion?  If not, those who said, "What the !@#$ is this !@#$ of an ending?"... those people just need to be spoon fed "imagination"?

Modifié par Love Sherri, 30 juin 2012 - 11:00 .

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Theobuomai wrote...

Ah, Taboo, fellow Miri-mancer XD

I completely agree with the function and effect of the narrative sequence. I think many of us may have experienced it differently if we didn't already know the breath scene was coming, if we had experienced the EC ending afresh.

But I also side with those who feel the insufficiency of the imaginative/implied ending of Shep.

I don't think its a matter of the player's ability to imagine, or fill in guided implications, but rather on the nature and function of imagination -- here, namely its inability to clarify, close, and fulfill, especially at a personal level when it's not my own story. Sure, people are able to do the latter at varying degrees, and that is very apparent all over BSN. The problem, though, is that the player's imagination can't actually fulfill Shepard's story, because it is not my story, it is Bioware's; it is Shepard's. The player is ultimately on the receiving end of the story, of the gift, and therefore cannot give it to herself/himself. That is not to say the player doesn't supply anything, but he/she can't complete it, can't fulfill it, can't close it, because the truth will always remain that the story was never your own from the beginning -- again, it's Bioware's, and we are absorbed into it by our receiving of it (just like any story that isn't by nature our own).

Sure, imagination can speculate, can inwardly create. (Since Miri and Jack didn't get their own "plaque" scene, I still imagine a different scene with Miri having hacked into the Alliance files, seeing Shepard's name listed "MIA," then quickly getting up and walking with a mission, with a camera shot on her face as she sports a commanding smirk that says "Shepard, here I come...") Yet it will never reach the goal line, never give true closure in ME3, but will leave me in this tormenting "limbo" between the fulfilled and unfulfilled. To exist as real, to exist as true and fulfilled, it has to be given to me -- which also says something about the communal nature (and not must my own personal imagination) that the story must also exist within and be given. I think this is precisely why all the fan sketches, drawings, fanfics, models and animations, and comics are such a joy to so many. Yet even in the end, no matter how much I may choose a fan's or my own "imagined" to be the final close for Shep, it will always be second best, always be present with the fact that it is not Bioware's, and therefore will never truly give what it tries to.

Bioware is expecting us to give to ourselves what we cannot give ourselves. The promise can only be fulfilled by the one who made it; the story only closed by the one who told it.

Really well put.  It's the feeling I get when looking at youtube videos that show Shepard doing something.  That's not my Shepard so it feels off.

I wanted, no needed to see an ending to get that closure.

I'm going to get very serious here, but I don't want anyone to pity me, it is not my intent.  But, my sister died many years ago and I lost my father years before that.  I've also had other relatives pass on.  I did not see my sister dead.  For the longest time I could not get past it-in my dreams my sister was alive and I had to find her.  She is the only one I had this experience with.

While this game is less dramatic for me, it is similar in that my Shepard is stuck right before the conduit saying goodbye again to Liara.  I can imagine they meet again in the med lab and then the game fades out, but I wanted and needed to see it in order for it to be real.  As it is now the game stops right there, stuck in a moment.  It was supposed to be fun-the game stopped being fun in a lot of ways and to top it off, the devs clearly said they don't want us to see a happy ending.  Nice thing to do to people that only wanted something good.  Nice thing to do to the hero of 3 games.

Someone needs to show the devs these two messages.

[Taboo]

They have stated time and time again that he is alive. You are grousing because you do not wish to participate in a story that has already made you do this.

If it was his last breath, he would not be breathing in said manner. Such a breath is from someone who is regaining air in their lungs and consciousness.

When someone dies, the breathing becomes rapid and hastens until they expire.

Shepard is ****ed up, but barring him being pinned by something, he can stand up.

[toots1221]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bioware telling you that he/she is alive and that a reunion can take place is not enough?

Can we not do this in our heads?

Have we forgotten how to participate in art?

Call me crazy but I was kind of hoping that the DLC that Bioware promised would provide clarity and closure would you know actually do that and not just for the writers favorite ending. So no I don't want to do it in my head, I want actual closure in the game.

[Iakus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

They have stated time and time again that he is alive. You are grousing because you do not wish to participate in a story that has already made you do this.

If it was his last breath, he would not be breathing in said manner. Such a breath is from someone who is regaining air in their lungs and consciousness.

When someone dies, the breathing becomes rapid and hastens until they expire.

Shepard is ****ed up, but barring him being pinned by something, he can stand up.

I'm grousing because the scene was poorly done (both times) does not provide closure, and essentially requires outside knowledge (tweets) to actually confirm that yes, Shepard is alive and can reuinite with crew and LIs.

If there was going to be another Shepard story, maybe this could slide.  But this is the end of the road, where all the riddles get answered.  In a DLC that's supposed to provide clarity and closure, this ending fails.

[SpiritWolf448]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bioware telling you that he/she is alive and that a reunion can take place is not enough?

And what of those who never use Twitter or these very fora? Who don't, for whatever reason, have any outside information but must solely rely on what the game shows them?

- The breath scene can be interpreted both as "Shep's alive" or "Shep's drawing the final breath".

- The memorial ceremony scene... well, if you can see the face of your LI, there is a smile. (Talimancers don't see a smile, btw.) But what smile? A"I'm coming for you" smile? A smile while remembering some nice moment about a passed away Shep?
There is hesitation while putting the plaque up, yes, but if at this point the crew already *know* that Anderson is dead, logic dictates that they must also know wether Shep's alive or not. If they were told that he is alive, why bring the plaque to the wall and attempt to put it up? If they don't know Sheps status yet, that means everything is up in the air and could go both ways.

- during Hacketts epilogue speech, nowhere is Shep ever mentioned directly. The only flash you get is during the part where Hackett mentions some of the KIA people, like Mordin and Thane. There is a short scene showing a badly damaged N7 helmet. And if an N7 armour that does a breath means Sheps alive, this scene during the "fallen people" part could easily mean that he's dead.

Taboo-XX wrote...

Can we not do this in our heads?

Yes, we can. But we shouldn't have to.

Taboo-XX wrote...

Have we forgotten how to participate in art?

Dunno. If I ever try, I'll make notes. *shrugs*

What I did do though is play a game trilogy, following the adventures of Cmdr. Shepard and the crew across 3 games worth about ~155 hours (give or take an hour).

Bioware may claim that they are artists now instead of game designers. Maybe they really believe they are. But in the end one simple thing remains. If they don't produce commercially successful titles, at some point EA will cut them down to size, even if they were the greatest artists alive. (Hint: commercially successful means working with the fans instead of against them. Dissatisfied fans will leave for greener pastures and take their money elsewhere.)



In the end, I do really and honestly think this thread should just be left to die off, as it is highly obvious that this is a matter we (read: the fans) won't ever be able to find a consensus on as there is too much Bioware purposefully left open for speculations.

Modifié par SpiritWolf448, 30 juin 2012 - 11:18 .

[xZitx]

I do not really understand that much hate against the breath scene. I think it is totally okay to end like this.

The memorial scene is shown before the Normandy leaves that strange jungle LOST planet or whatever... as for why Anderson's plaque is already on the wall? Anderson died pretty soon - Hackett tells everyone to "get the hell out of here" AFTER Shepard made his/her decision. There's time for Hackett to know Anderson's dead- (Shepard told him, Anderson not responding, some kind of vital transimission thorugh his clothes? like when Joker tells you his suit shows his heightened stress levels), but after Shepard's decision everyone has to get out, out out and the communication with Shepard wouldn't be working. Thus, the Normandy crew could perfectly well know that David Anderson is indeed dead, but have no clue about Shepard's ultimate fate.
The LI still hopes he/she is alive and hesitates to put the plaque on the wall - they leave the planet. Breath scene.
Who says Shepard cannot be rescued, just because the people on the Normandy, on some far off planet, do not know for sure he's alive? They could learn this news when tey come back or so.

I am very satisfied with this scene. It cleary shows that Shepard lives, but it doesn't force you to accept it. If you want Shepard to die, you can think he dies a few moments later. There are a lot of reasons for people to want this heroic death.
Or he is rescued, and his life continues, so that he will be able to meet his LI again. Do you really need everything shown in pictures?
I know it would make for a nice and touching scene, but I think the breath scene has more meaning to it. After all that happened, Shepard draws a breath. Whether he ultimately dies or not, it is shown that Shepard's a fighter. It's a breath of life, or a breath of "relief", if you want to call it that. A last breath, showing he can die peacefully.

That is just my opinion.

[Taboo]

This is exactly what I was talking about last night. You do not need this information from the Devs. They want you to come to your own conclusions. They should not need to hold your hand.

That's the point.

If you want your Shepard to stay there fine. Do not think past said point.

Everyone else has blue babies, a house on Rannoch, an adopted Krogan with Garrus.

And my Shepard is being berated by Miranda for something.

[MassEffect762]

Talk about a fumble. Don't end a series in speculaton EA.

Destroy fans want closure, to feel good about investing their time this game.

Remember back to ME1 when Shepard is thought dead under Sovereigns arm and how he eventually comes running out to smiles from his/her crew. That was how it should've ended imo.

No speculation, no mind games, no B.S.

[3DandBeyond]

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb here. I think that I and all of us must really start to respect the opinions of others. If we disagree then so be it. But telling people to get over it or just use their imaginations is belittling. We all see things differently, otherwise we'd all be the same people in different exactly identical bodies.

I can surmise that most but not all of the people that wanted something more for Shepard than the gasp scene are female. Please read and understand what I said before commenting. There are females that didn't care about it and males of course that did. I said most not all.

By and large men and women are wired differently. A great many men would have been satisfied with a big battle in space that looked cool and some great speeches by someone. They saw this as a great space epic (or sort of a space epic) that might go out with a bang (not the same kind Allers was looking for).

I as a female saw the story as a whole differently. I saw it as a great space story along the lines of Star Trek: TNG and Star Wars, but with a romance thrown in. Often, it was a romance set against a war in space. That's how I tend to see things. I like romances, but not trashy ones-love stories and this was partly what this was. Guys might have seen it as a buddy "movie" in space. I, as a female also saw it as a love story of newfound "misfit" friends. The reapers were badass bad guys and I didn't need anything more to fill in their story. The romance was a big deal. It was always about this: destroy the reapers get home to the one you love and your friends and begin your life, Shepard.

I saw a straight line to the end. If Shepard died, I'd work harder the next time to keep that from happening, because I was there to help Shepard make it home and see those people that needed to see him/her just as much as s/he needed to see them. It would be THE moment, the most memorable event of all the great events of 3 games, the pinnacle moment that Shepard in winning shares with surviving friends. Then came the initial ending and MY Shepard that I had promised a life, was left a gasping torso in rubble. I played MP to make sure at least that torso would be alive the next time I played the game.

The EC was announced and while I wanted a lot of things changed, I knew it wouldn't happen. We were told we'd get closure and I figured, well ok it would be enough if I could get Shepard up out of that rubble and back "home" if I tried hard enough. Well, the joke was on me. Bioware did it again and they made it worse by having an employee mistakenly say it would happen. I believed it would and that the game would finally be at an end that I could at least accept. It won't happen and for me the game stops before London. I can't say goodbye to Kaidan (when choosing him as Shepard's LI), nor Liara (can't accept her gift because I won't let Shepard say farewell). The freaking galaxy will have to save itself.

I chalk it up to how people are just different. Many women will forever remember what other women were wearing or scan the look on someone's face (are you mad at me). We take in everything-we can hear it if someone isn't happy, even if they say, "good morning". And we have long memories when we fight with friends. Guys will look at each other and say, "you good, I'm good" and be ok again. Women need to look at a friend and hear that it's ok after a fight. Now, these are generalizations and not true for all women and men, but it's just my way of saying we see things differently. There's no right or wrong, just different. I needed to see Shepard alive and semi-happy. The last chapter in a romance and a space story.

[Love Sherri]

Taboo-XX wrote...[Mr. Gamble stated it. Mr. Ackland stated it. Miss Merizan stated it.

Taboo-XX wrote...They have stated time and time again that he is alive.

Taboo-XX wrote...He is alive. Bioware has stated this. It even says so in game files.

Taboo-XX wrote...He tweeted about it the other day.

So this is how 21st century games are meant to be played.

Go to Twitter to find out if your character is alive or dead.

Sucks to be those without an internet connection. Poor bastards are probably cutting themselves at home without Twitter to answer!

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

Love Sherri wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...[Mr. Gamble stated it. Mr. Ackland stated it. Miss Merizan stated it.

Taboo-XX wrote...They have stated time and time again that he is alive.

Taboo-XX wrote...He is alive. Bioware has stated this. It even says so in game files.

Taboo-XX wrote...He tweeted about it the other day.

So this is how 21st century games are meant to be played.

Go to Twitter to find out if your character is alive or dead.

Sucks to be those without an internet connection. Poor bastards are probably cutting themselves at home without Twitter to answer!

It sucks even more to be unable to give youself a  good conclusion.

I thought of one better then Bioware could ever have made.

And that's the point, you dingus. Bioware knew if they concluded it themselves, they would probably mess it up for a lot of fans.

Giving the fans the option to create their own story is the core of Mass Effect.

You must have been playing Gears of War.

Modifié par AlduinTheWorldNommer, 30 juin 2012 - 11:22 .

[3DandBeyond]

Taboo-XX wrote...

This is exactly what I was talking about last night. You do not need this information from the Devs. They want you to come to your own conclusions. They should not need to hold your hand.

That's the point.

If you want your Shepard to stay there fine. Do not think past said point.

Everyone else has blue babies, a house on Rannoch, an adopted Krogan with Garrus.

And my Shepard is being berated by Miranda for something.

I have no problem imagining this but that is not the issue.  I even wrote my own fiction for it, for me.

But, I wanted to see it.  It's how I am wired.  I'm not wrong.  You're not wrong.  We can accept and need different things.  That makes us unique.  See how no one here has ever told you that you need to see the ending too?  And yet, your tone and your inference is that we shouldn't need to see it.  I am telling you I needed to see it.  If you are saying I don't, you are putting your own perceptions and individual preferences on me.  I accept you don't need to see it.  Please accept that I am telling you the truth when I say I do.

It is something that is within me that I cannot change.  I can't imagine it and make it real.  I needed to see it for it to be real.  I am jealous that you didn't.  And I have a fantastic imagination-something that was repeatedly drum in me to use from when I was a little girl back when God was a boy.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 juin 2012 - 11:22 .

[Taboo]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

This is exactly what I was talking about last night. You do not need this information from the Devs. They want you to come to your own conclusions. They should not need to hold your hand.

That's the point.

If you want your Shepard to stay there fine. Do not think past said point.

Everyone else has blue babies, a house on Rannoch, an adopted Krogan with Garrus.

And my Shepard is being berated by Miranda for something.

I have no problem imagining this but that is not the issue.  I even wrote my own fiction for it, for me.

But, I wanted to see it.  It's how I am wired.  I'm not wrong.  You're not wrong.  We can accept and need different things.  That makes us unique.  See how no one here has ever told you that you need to see the ending too?  And yet, your tone and your inference is that we shouldn't need to see it.  I am telling you I needed to see it.  If you are saying I don't, you are putting your own perceptions and individual preferences on me.  I accept you don't need to see it.  Please accept that I am telling you the truth when I say I do.

I understand completely. I do. I'm just trying to assist people who don't understand the scene at all. Which was the point of the thread. It says so in the title.

I actually have an idea planned for the people who don't like it. Give me some time and I'll see what I can do.

[Love Sherri]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I had promised a life, was left a gasping torso in rubble..

These 12 words explain everything about why this bothers people so much.


That scene is the last thing you will ever see of the character you've spent 150+ hours playing.


It leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.

Modifié par Love Sherri, 30 juin 2012 - 11:25 .

[3DandBeyond]

Taboo-XX wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

This is exactly what I was talking about last night. You do not need this information from the Devs. They want you to come to your own conclusions. They should not need to hold your hand.

That's the point.

If you want your Shepard to stay there fine. Do not think past said point.

Everyone else has blue babies, a house on Rannoch, an adopted Krogan with Garrus.

And my Shepard is being berated by Miranda for something.

I have no problem imagining this but that is not the issue.  I even wrote my own fiction for it, for me.

But, I wanted to see it.  It's how I am wired.  I'm not wrong.  You're not wrong.  We can accept and need different things.  That makes us unique.  See how no one here has ever told you that you need to see the ending too?  And yet, your tone and your inference is that we shouldn't need to see it.  I am telling you I needed to see it.  If you are saying I don't, you are putting your own perceptions and individual preferences on me.  I accept you don't need to see it.  Please accept that I am telling you the truth when I say I do.

I understand completely. I do. I'm just trying to assist people who don't understand the scene at all. Which was the point of the thread. It says so in the title.

I actually have an idea planned for the people who don't like it. Give me some time and I'll see what I can do.

Sorry if I seem to take this out on you-didn't mean to.  It's all over the place where people just keep saying, "just use your imagination."  I have and I do and I've been wishing someone would make a real ending that Bioware wouldn't for those of us that needed it.  There's one video out there, but I've gotten rather anxious and trying to figure if I could make one myself, though I don't know how to do it.

[Taboo]

I'm actually planning on asking Bioware for something formal. Something practical. Something that would give people closure.

The point of the thread isn't to mock, but to explain what is going on.

[SpiritWolf448]

Love Sherri wrote...

So this is how 21st century games are meant to be played.

Go to Twitter to find out if your character is alive or dead.

Sucks to be those without an internet connection. Poor bastards are probably cutting themselves at home without Twitter to answer!

To be fair and give the other side a break, without internet connection, you wouldn't even be playing ME3 due to it's connection with EAs Origin CRR (CRR = Customer Rights Removal).

[Reptilian Rob]

I agree with all of this, you did good son.

[Love Sherri]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

And that's the point, you dingus.

How mature.

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote... 

You must have been playing Gears of War.

I'm more of a Bethesda fan.

Fall Out.  Skyrim.

You know, the good stuff.

[Reptilian Rob]

Taboo-XX wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

If you seen enough movies you have seen this trick done a million times

Unfortunately, people haven't picked this up, or that they've seen it before.

This also goes for books, IE the mother ****ing end of Ringworld.

[barbara2012]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bioware telling you that he/she is alive and that a reunion can take place is not enough?

Can we not do this in our heads?

Have we forgotten how to participate in art?

You are purposely ignoring what people are saying to be antagonistic at this point.  You don't need it, I get that.  I appreciate that.  Give others some sort of decency and actually try to see what they are saying.

And players had been begging for a reunion closure scene before the EC.  Jessica said there would be one.  People found out there wasn't and she changed her story.  This is cruel.

Video games can be art.   But, art speaks for itself.  It doesn't need someone to go on twitter to give a play by play of what others don't understand or tell people that wanted to see something that they didn't need to see it.  Get this, I have as much "right" to want or need to see something as you have not to care about it.

ME was a visual, interactive story.  If we are meant to use our imagination for a bunch of stuff than that should have been the clear intent of the game all along.  It wasn't.  We were clearly shown things and as Conrad said if we lacked understanding we could ask something again and get the answer repeated for us.  We saw Shepard's innards being rebuilt.  In the other endings we saw Shepard disintegrate-we get the play by play and I'm surprised they didn't repeat it in slow motion so we didn't miss anything.  In Destroy, we see a torso gasp.  They do not at all compare.  Why didn't people have to imagine Shepard being disintegrated?

wow !!!! 1000 % complety agreed with you here .....merizan merizan ts ts ts

[SpiritWolf448]

*sigh* By now, you'd think people would know better than to take anything said by Bioware employees at face value, especially on Twitter. And especially especially their PR/CM people. :innocent: