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Who Needs Information? Understanding Narrative Sequence, and the Breath Scene


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#401
3DandBeyond

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MystEU wrote...

Shepard walks into the implied sunset for that particular ending. That's good enough for me, along with the placement in the narrative, especially since the endings finally feel like you've actually "won." The presentation of each ending also better illustrates what line you have to cross to achieve victory. Each one is something else with its own downside. The EC execution makes that so much better.



The endings in no way feel like you've won anything if you really look at them.
Refuse can't be taken seriously because it was not a serious attempt by the devs to solve the real problem that still exists; the function of the crucible was to create alternate solutions and the explanation of those solutions are given by a less than trustworthy being.  For one thing he may still be lying.  But for another, he may be wrong in what he thinks they do.  But the only way to object to that, refusal, leads to certain death which is a stupid thing for any video game to do.  It's the devs saying that if we think their design for an ending was stupid, then "game over".

All of the choices still mean people are fated to a certain outcome, no matter what.  In picking one, Shepard must agree with the star kid's premise that conflict is inevitable and people are not willing or able to ever work things out.  It still denies what happened between the geth and the quarians and that the issue was solved one way or another.  The devs omitted that, persisting in their idea that they are right about it because someone somewhere theorized it was a possibility.

Destroy is what you set out to do, but it has a high cost.  It is the only choice that leaves people's futures in their own hands in reality.  It is the hardest in many ways because it requires Shepard kill the best examples of why people are not fated to do what the star kid says they will always do-be at conflict with synthetics.  So, it also says the only way to avoid that is to just destroy all synthetic life.  It is more mature in the consequences, but still childish on what it says about people.  If you choose this, there's no clear win.  In fact, a living Shepard will have to face the fact s/he destroyed what his/her heart helped create.

Control is not what paragon Shepard's want and the new Shreaper echoes this saying what only a renegade or TIM might say-in mine (almost full paragon) she says that the woman she was knew she had to become something greater.  No she didn't.  Not in my game.  My Shepard knew she had to rely on people to want to do the right thing, the better thing, and she did not want to control reapers.  She wanted the reapers gone.  She never found TIM's position valid.  She destroyed the Collector's base because it was an abomination full of the renderings of people's life that had been literally sucked from their bodies.  No way she could ever become reaper commander knowing the reapers contain the same.  She is also sensitive to the fact people will suffer knowing reapers may contain their loved one's goo.  And, self-determination is denied to people since Shreaper and the reapers will be there to fix and create tech advancements and to police the galaxy.  This is a childish choice that says again that people cannot rely on themselves to do anything, to face conflict (they have worked out in the past) and fix it.  They need an overseer to make sure no such conflict ever exists.  This is not a win.  It is fatalistic and creates the super nanny in space.  It leaves open questions as to what could be a very dark future since it's not known how the catalyst became a warped program or AI.  It is unknown since the catalyst was the collective intelligence of all reapers, just what Shreaper is now and what influences will come to bear on him/her.  It is ominous as shown.

Synthesis is not what any moral Shepard would do.  It was never a goal of anyone's in any serious way, outside of the indoctrinated (Saren) and even TIM.  TIM saw it as a way to control the reapers-a means to get to them or he was investigating it while indoctrinated.  Further, it is the goal of the star kid who is warped.  It also is forced upon people without their knowledge or consent.  It says that people cannot solve problems with others that are different from them without becoming a part of them or more like them.  It says that in order for people to avoid a conflict which they have already been able to resolve at one point, they need an external influence to make them become more like their perceived adversary.  It is fatalistic and creates a more homogenized populace.  It also leaves the reapers alive but more perfectly achieves one of their goals.  It uses trumped up ideas of perfection-warped in its explanation and in its existence as a goal.  It's a goal apparently of some of the writers, but not of all people.  It's childish in this way as well.  It leaves open many questions as well of what could be a very dire future.  Immortality leading to over-population and no clear way to naturally deal with that.  There is no win here.

None of the choices are wins at all.  As well the only non-choice is no win or even a satisfying loss.

The whole thing calls into question just what makes life worth living.  EDI and the geth strived so hard and finally found it (paragon Shepard choices), but in the only end choice that would be most in line with what they did, they get punished for it as does Shepard for adhering to it.  Destroy (if the kid is believed and the crucible does what he says it does) is the only choice that fits what Shepard taught EDI about what being alive means.  But someone sadistically made her pay for it.

#402
Baa Baa

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I liked Destroy being open ended and not in chronological order. I thought it was done well and heavily implied that you would meet up with your LI again, which was the main thing I wanted in EC. I get why a lot of people dislike it though.

#403
mjboldy

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Rolenka wrote...

Well, duh. I thought it was obvious the breath took place immediately after the redsplosion. It's inferred Shep continues breathing until the Normandy returns for a rescue -- though they should have made this a lot clearer.

JA Shepard wrote...

I'm not big destroy fan so I wasn't
bothered too much and I was happy with the EC overall. I do think,
however, they could've given people a little more though if the
implication is that Shepard lives. In fact, the omission of that
personal defibrillator sound that they added to the scene where Shepard
snaps awake on the Citadel leads me to believe that Shepard does die in
the breath scene. If that sound was there, it would have been case
closed:Shepard lives. Now,whether by accident or design, there's a piece
of evidence that we saw Shepard's last breath.


Wha? When does Shep get shocked back to life on the Citadel?


It sounded more like a reaper sound to me than a defibrillator. Of course I'm IT so Shepard is waking up for the first time at that scene after getting hit by harbinger.

#404
3DandBeyond

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mjboldy wrote...

Rolenka wrote...

Well, duh. I thought it was obvious the breath took place immediately after the redsplosion. It's inferred Shep continues breathing until the Normandy returns for a rescue -- though they should have made this a lot clearer.

JA Shepard wrote...

I'm not big destroy fan so I wasn't
bothered too much and I was happy with the EC overall. I do think,
however, they could've given people a little more though if the
implication is that Shepard lives. In fact, the omission of that
personal defibrillator sound that they added to the scene where Shepard
snaps awake on the Citadel leads me to believe that Shepard does die in
the breath scene. If that sound was there, it would have been case
closed:Shepard lives. Now,whether by accident or design, there's a piece
of evidence that we saw Shepard's last breath.


Wha? When does Shep get shocked back to life on the Citadel?


It sounded more like a reaper sound to me than a defibrillator. Of course I'm IT so Shepard is waking up for the first time at that scene after getting hit by harbinger.


It kind of just sounded to me like some airlock closing. 

#405
macrocarl

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I can't decide if it's more crazy Taboo had to make this thread to explain what they saw or the people who refute it..........

#406
3DandBeyond

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macrocarl wrote...

I can't decide if it's more crazy Taboo had to make this thread to explain what they saw or the people who refute it..........


It really isn't so crazy that people might think it possible Shepard didn't live if you look at the one line that wasn't removed from what the devs had the kid say-he still says Shepard is part synthetic too.  And then the last image of Shepard is headless and bodiless.  It's a demented ending.  I tend to believe Shepard's alive, but I can see reasons why it needed full closure.  But someone sadistic decided to end 3 games and the most important thing, Shepard's story, this horrible way.

#407
Mavqt

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macrocarl wrote...

I can't decide if it's more crazy Taboo had to make this thread to explain what they saw or the people who refute it..........


We all know what we saw, Taboo is correct. But it's what we(people who need more closure) can't see thats the problem. Too much is left to the mind, and if it's the end of Sheps' story then wtf. IF there was another ME game or after ending DLC that continued Sheps story (I.E. If we ever see a "retake Omega DLC" then why not do it after, then they could explain with a minute long conversation or scene) then fine I'm fine with waiting and paying.

And before anyone says "They said there not making another Shep story or after ending dlc" I was just saying IF they did. IF!

Modifié par mavqt, 06 juillet 2012 - 01:53 .


#408
3DandBeyond

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mavqt wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

I can't decide if it's more crazy Taboo had to make this thread to explain what they saw or the people who refute it..........


We all know what we saw, Taboo is correct. But it's what we(people who need more closure) can't see thats the problem. Too much is left to the mind, and if it's the end of Sheps' story then wtf. IF there was another ME game or after ending DLC that continued Sheps story (I.E. If we ever see a "retake Omega DLC" then why not do it after, then they could explain with a minute long conversation or scene) then fine I'm fine with waiting and paying.

And before anyone says "They said there not making another Shep story or after ending dlc" I was just saying IF they did. IF!


I don't think people can rely on anything they have said as being set in stone-they've done this before.  I do think at this point they have so much disdain for fans that they are unwilling to act rationally.  We all know that creating one possible unequivocally happy ending would extend the profitability of ME. 

Some deny it, but then they go out to blockbuster movies that feature just that sort of ending.  No one ever leaves one of those saying they wish the hero was left for dead or they wish they had never seen the hero happy in the end.  And that's because epic, conclusive, redemptive, happier endings do sell.  The world can be a mess, the galaxy screwed up, life kind of in question, but as long as the hero is seen face to face and greets those that gave him/her the reason for fighting, the ending succeeds and the whole story succeeds.

What was the first thing done in starting ME?  We created the face of Shepard.  So, too should have been that final moment of ME3 in all endings.  The last thing seen should have been the face of Shepard-happier in one, dying in another, and then ambiguous in still another.  That is how you conclude a trilogy of endings in a story that has been about one main character and the effect that person had on a galaxy.  This ending is insulting.

#409
wright1978

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devSin wrote...

zambot wrote...

Do you really believe they would show Shepard alive for a moment if he/she did not actually survive?

No, I believe they don't actually care whether Shepard goes on to live or not.

Their narrative stops at the part where he didn't immediately die in the blast. The rest of it is unwritten. Did he get rescued? Did he recover? Did the Keepers find him and haul his body to the protein vats? Did he bleed out? Did he lose both his legs and both his arms and most of his face? Does he suffocate in a vacuum? Does he die of starvation trapped under a mountain of rubble?

Those pages aren't implied. They simply don't exist. You can imagine how Shepard was found and everybody is happy, but it's not part of the story, any more than any of the other scenarios.

The extended cut was supposed to offer clarity and closure, and in this instance, they refused to do so.


They wanted to leave it unclear for whatever reason, most likely so they can decide to kill Shep off and claim that he/she never survived. Otherwise why would you not clarify/expand/extend breath scene in an extended cut.

Modifié par wright1978, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:36 .


#410
NM_Che56

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Here's what the breathe scene would have looked like after you see Shepard take a breath.



#411
Taboo

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I'm still working on that project by the way. I just don't know if I want to type it up today.

#412
Reorte

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wright1978 wrote...

They wanted to leave it unclear for whatever reason, most likely so they can decide to kill Shep off and claim that he/she never survived. Otherwise why would you not clarify/expand/extend breath scene in an extended cut.

I think that they simply decided that having it straightforward would've been too bland, doing just the breath was more stylish (over substance). As I've said before that whilst their intention is clear it simply fails for me at a fundamental level. My brain, which knows all about literary convention, reasons why a scene will be in there and so on, says "Yep, Shepard is definitely alive" but my subconcious emotional response only replies to what it sees and is left with "He might not live." Unfortunately that's the side of me that ultimately judges the success or failure of a work of fiction because it's that side it's appealing to. I've got plenty of non-fiction to keep the other side happy.

#413
Jon The Wizard

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I am intrigued by this development and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

#414
clarkusdarkus

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So after 150+ hrs of a trilogy, it's left upto me to imagine whatever it is i want to imagine that happens after the breath scene, not sure thats good or bad to be honest.In my mind then they can turn my shepard into the t-800 and make me come back in every mass effect.

#415
MetioricTest

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clarkusdarkus wrote...

So after 150+ hrs of a trilogy, it's left upto me to imagine whatever it is i want to imagine that happens after the breath scene, not sure thats good or bad to be honest.In my mind then they can turn my shepard into the t-800 and make me come back in every mass effect.


Bad

If they want me to make my own **** up they shouldn't have given me such a bad starting point.

So fine okay my imagination.

The Catalyst was just another one of Shepard's nightmares after he passed out next to Anderson. (The elevator never happened)

Then Mordin teleported into the room using the transporters from the Starship Enterprise. Mordin then activated the crucible that fired perfectly and destroyed all the Reapers.

The end.

#416
clarkusdarkus

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MetioricTest wrote...

clarkusdarkus wrote...

So after 150+ hrs of a trilogy, it's left upto me to imagine whatever it is i want to imagine that happens after the breath scene, not sure thats good or bad to be honest.In my mind then they can turn my shepard into the t-800 and make me come back in every mass effect.


Bad

If they want me to make my own **** up they shouldn't have given me such a bad starting point.

So fine okay my imagination.

The Catalyst was just another one of Shepard's nightmares after he passed out next to Anderson. (The elevator never happened)

Then Mordin teleported into the room using the transporters from the Starship Enterprise. Mordin then activated the crucible that fired perfectly and destroyed all the Reapers.

The end.


each to there own, i just think it's ridiculous that it's left upto me to imagine what happened. 

#417
blmlozz

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Reorte wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

They wanted to leave it unclear for whatever reason, most likely so they can decide to kill Shep off and claim that he/she never survived. Otherwise why would you not clarify/expand/extend breath scene in an extended cut.

I think that they simply decided that having it straightforward would've been too bland, doing just the breath was more stylish (over substance). As I've said before that whilst their intention is clear it simply fails for me at a fundamental level. My brain, which knows all about literary convention, reasons why a scene will be in there and so on, says "Yep, Shepard is definitely alive" but my subconcious emotional response only replies to what it sees and is left with "He might not live." Unfortunately that's the side of me that ultimately judges the success or failure of a work of fiction because it's that side it's appealing to. I've got plenty of non-fiction to keep the other side happy.


I was going to go into my usual hyper-wordy response on my understanding, but this is it (mostly) condensed into a paragraph.

I realize their intentions were that he lives, but the entire game has been about realizing the frutis of your actions on screen, it has been about spoon feeding you all the details.  the biggest consequence or result of my largest action simply isn't shown, so I never truely am able to get that last piece of the puzzle to fit.

acutally I do feel the need to be wordy,

Should the game have left critical elements open to interpretation as a theme or a cop-out in common and through-out the series, the expectation to fill in the blanks would have already been there and the consequence of not being show Shepard in such a way would be less dramatic. It didn't though. You didn't see Ashely or Kaidan die on virmire, you acutally last see them alive, but their name is on that wall, Shepard talks to the survior that it was either them or you, and he choose you, he talks about living with their death throughout all 3 games. It's frequently pounded into you at touching moments that he/she is dead, and that makes you feel sad, but you know what happens so you can find closure in your decision.  This follows up with every major/minor decision you make in the game. That's what the primary appeal of this triligoy has been- that you see what happens because you put a gun in Conrad's face or didn't add those extra shields to the Normandy.

Thus the expectation was there that I would know without a dobut  the consequence of my actions. I understand that it's impossible to fully cover all the bases in an ending with a story in this way, but I also believe that they knew this was a popular outcome people desired(enough to both acknowledge it in the OE, and the Reinforce it in the EC), so I'm confused why they couldn't follow-through with it, why they felt the need to tease us. Clearly the genophage cure with a living wrex and eve indcates that the Korgan didn't go crazy mad and wipe everyone off the galaxy. Clearly they tell you that the relays can be rebuilt and the various earth forces don't die a horrible death. So why stop short with Shepard? Maybe it was because this was Shepard's end and they didn't want to provide false hope of a sequel or something, or maybe because 'it's the hip thing to do' and provide a non- stereotypical heroic death finale. I don't think anyone really knows, not even the writiers. Their goal afterall was to appeal to everyone, not necessary what they felt as Canon, because there's no such thing as a Canon shepard, that's the appealing part of this story.

It's also why I don't understand they didn't follow through with this, and why Shepards death(realized or implied)
just feels wrong. Why do I need to suddenly be spoon fed this information(that he dies in 3/4 endings and there a 'hope' that he lives in 1 of them) when previously he had died and was brought back to life? You're telling me some rubble on a broken space station and a gun-shoot wound trumps plumeting through atmosphere? There's simply a lot of evidence to support the implications what they do give us says that he's alive, but doubt is a powerful weapon. As long as it exists it will never be clear what happened, that's simlpy not enough for me, not when I'm used to knowing what happens. That's half the reason people buy the game after all(it certinally wasn't because of the FPS qualities). It's why the EC was created, it's why people create 2,3, or even 4 Shepards just to see what happens when they react differently to the same situations.


That's why this particular conclusion felt sub-par, the consequence was implied where the last 300 hours of game play it had been shown, in detail, and reinforced to the point that there was no wiggle room, it was shown in the other 3 endings and reinforced  that shepard would have to sacrafice himself to control the reapers, to sacrafice his body for syntheisis, or be killed by the reapers in the non-reactive situation, but when it came to confirming he lived, it was implied rather than confirmed we were teased rather than provided undeniable proof of his fate as in the other endings.

Modifié par blmlozz, 18 juillet 2012 - 03:33 .


#418
Sen4lifE

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Really?  I thought Shepard woke up 100 years in the future after the galaxy fully rebuilt itself.  Like he was in a deep coma.

#419
incinerator950

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/sigh