418 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulmoka531]

arr0whead wrote...

Zulmoka531 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Did anyone see Shepard avoiding the explosion with a High EMS?

NOOOOO?

I'm just curious as to why mine even began walking into an explosion. I mean I know I've made him do stupid things like...dancing and drinking radioactive booze..but even cavemen knew that fire  meant hot and hot meant hurt!.

Caveman Shepard no like fireball, me shoot pipe, make everything boom!

That's what mine also did.  Walking into the explosion certainly isn't the same as avoiding it.

Ttruthfully, I was trying to just have a bit of fun with this topic without totally derailing it. But it still stands, you don't walk into the light! Especially when that light is actually red and destructive and..explodey...and I need to stop drinking...

[3DandBeyond]

davidshooter wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

This reminds me of conversations I have with my mother. 

You don't need to be spoon fed everything.

No, you don't "need" to.

But when you may have killed a franchise with your "artistic integrity" and your goal was to continue at the very least with DLC, and perhaps another game you might "want" to consider it.

This game was a major F*** U* for EA and BioWare.  The micro-transaction crowd do not make content for free unless something has gone very, very wrong.

This exactly.

I can imagine everything.  A video game is by definition visual and fun.  I pay to see things in it and not to imagine the major parts.  That's what they told us we needed to do with the original ending, what we were too stupid to do.  Well, their final FU to us is that we must imagine the only semi-happy ending for the hero of the trilogy, the most important character in the whole series and the player's avatar.  It was clear in the original endings that the breath scene was the one with the most emotional desires for closure, and in this they are saying we couldn't care less how you feel.

[WhereEternityEnds]

Taboo-XX wrote...

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

Oh, I see the ilk of who we're dealing with here.  I'm guessing North American narrative is too "mainstream" for him.  *rolls eyes*  Good lord, who do you think you are? 

A country boy from Montana.

That's like a white man saying he's not racist against black people because he was born in South Africa.  Try again. 

Modifié par WhereEternityEnds, 30 juin 2012 - 03:14 .

[lamodite]

I'm satisfied with what I have. That being said I would love a scene where it shows Shepard's escape from the citadel, riding down the magic elevator, picking up Anderson's body, then running down the corridor and taking the conduit to escape, shooting him out onto earth where he just lays there. No music is needed, just a shoot of Shepard laying there, then the breath of him waking up....it looks a lot cooler in my head.

[krukow]

How is this not closure? Events as they occur in my end:

Shepard calls for an evac, tell Ash he'll always love her.  She doesn't want to go and agrees.
Shepard destroys the reapers (because they deserve it).
Normandy crash(?) lands on jungle planet.
Normandy crew has memorial, but Ash doesn't believe Shep is dead.
Normandy takes off headed back to earth (it's an alliance ship kids).
Shepard isn't dead, but just injured on the still obrital citadel.

I would need some sort of headbattleship to allow for the headcanon needed for there to not be a reuinion. I almost think calling it "implied" is shortchanging it...

Modifié par krukow, 30 juin 2012 - 03:14 .

[Heeden]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Ok, it's molestation.  It's the invasion of a person's body without permission.  It is forced.  The kid says it cannot be forced but if no consent is given (it wasn't) then Shepard is forcing it upon people.  There are broader uses of the word rape than of a sexual nature.  Mind rape and in fact, I worked in emergency services and anyone who has ever even had their house broken into will tell you it feels like they have been violated, in fact raped.

Synthesis was never something people said to Shepard was ok.  In fact, EDI spoke out against a similar idea, Mordin also, Legion as well, and more.  It is also the advancement of people before their time.  It fundamentally changes what people are and there were people in ME that did not even like implants.  Putting something in their bodies without permission is a violation.

The only choice where you could construe any implied consent is Destroy-that was the goal, you might even say Shepard was ordered to do it.  EDI told Shepard she was prepared to die, Legion showed the Geth might be as well.  I still hate it, think it's wrong.  But none of the other choices (even reject as immediate failure) were the goal.

It honestly sickens me the way you liken Synthesis and burglary to serious sexual assault. I mean really - I've never had to convince a person to report burglary because they felt so twisted up about the experience, and I've never heard of rape only affecting people who are willing to accept it.

It's fine to use the word violate, that's a perfectly valid way of describing the fact Shepard enacts a new paradigm without consultation or consent, but it's a far cry from what you are fixated on. If I play loud music I am violating other peoples ears, I won't be put on rape charges for it.

[Taboo]

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

Oh, I see the ilk of who we're dealing with here.  I'm guessing North American narrative is too "mainstream" for him.  *rolls eyes*  Good lord, who do you think you are? 

A country boy from Montana.

That's like a white man saying he's not racist because he was born in South Africa.  Try again. 

Why are you strawmanning the argument and relying on ad hominem attacks?

All I said was that Western Narratives are straightforward. I never said they were inferior. You have chosen to see that in my post.

[WhereEternityEnds]

Taboo-XX wrote...

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

Oh, I see the ilk of who we're dealing with here.  I'm guessing North American narrative is too "mainstream" for him.  *rolls eyes*  Good lord, who do you think you are? 

A country boy from Montana.

That's like a white man saying he's not racist because he was born in South Africa.  Try again. 

Why are you strawmanning the argument and relying on ad hominem attacks?

All I said was that Western Narratives are straightforward. I never said they were inferior. You have chosen to see that in my post.

Except...I only used ad hominem because of your posts.  If you act like a hipster who thinks negatively of Western narrative and uses it in a negative connotation (and don't deny it again, I know how to read between the lines)  then I'm going to treat you as such.   You prettied up your word usage of "SPOON FEEDING" and turned it into "straightforward."  Spoon feeding is clearly negative in this case and it is clear you think very little of this kind of narrative.  If you can't make a better and actual LEGITIMATE defense for why this open ended ending DOESN'T suck, then I'm not going to bother coming up with a decent arguments against it.  (not like I already haven't anyway)

You basically bashed ALL western narrative and then backpedaled when I called you out on it.  Your move. 

Modifié par WhereEternityEnds, 30 juin 2012 - 03:20 .

[OnelShot]

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

Oh, I see the ilk of who we're dealing with here.  I'm guessing North American narrative is too "mainstream" for him.  *rolls eyes*  Good lord, who do you think you are? 

A country boy from Montana.

That's like a white man saying he's not racist against black people because he was born in South Africa.  Try again. 

I feel like you would be defending something like transformers 2 like this as well. 

[devSin]

Naugi wrote...

Thats just silly. You act as if the scene is there for no reason. There's no way a scene that only plays with a certain choice with a certain EMS value was included and they intended it to have no meaning whatsoever. What are you suggesting, that this breath was part of a larger story that the writer just got up and walked away from and then accidentally forgot to complete, or that they just randomly included this, not just the concept of it, but the animation and the sound effect ... just, because ...

Originally? Yes, I believe they had nothing in mind for it beyond their bulleted list of ending variations. One of them said "Shepard survives" and so they made some vague video to convey that Shepard didn't die in the blast.

The only details we ever saw for the ending were very vague, and I don't believe this was anything more than a bone thrown to the player to hang their head-canon on. This may have changed with the extended cut, but the video itself has not changed and none of the writers or designers will come out and say it.

Naugi wrote...

Clearly he lives, clearly the memorial scene is different as a result, clearly this is significant. It really doesnt take much imagination to understand what we are being shown.

The scene does not make this clear. We can see it once we compare the different ending sequences, but if this is the only one you see, it's not obvious that it's anything more than a moment of reflection and grief.

Khallos wrote...

I, personally, "got it" the minute I saw where they were going with it ( thanks TVTropes! =D ).

... But I'd still like to see a reunion. =/

I knew exactly what they were going to do the moment I saw that it wasn't Shepard standing at the memorial wall.

All I could do was shake my head.

Modifié par devSin, 30 juin 2012 - 03:21 .

[Shaleist]

KingNothing125 wrote...

The overarching problem, I think, is that people are comparing the extended ending with the original. They already know Shep survives, and their interpretation of the extended ending is painted by that experience.

You have to pretend you're seeing the ending for the first time. In that context, it makes perfect sense for the breath scene to be at the end. Then, working in reverse, it logically follows that the crew aboard the crashed Normandy (an unknown length of time after the end of the Reaper war) knew that Anderson died (his name is on the wall) and that Shepard survived (they didn't put Shep on the wall).

If they knew he was alive * I agree they HAD to know by then* why even have a name plate. Why even act like you're going to put it up there?  Why is that scene even in the Destroy + ending at all?

[Iakus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Why are you strawmanning the argument and relying on ad hominem attacks?

All I said was that Western Narratives are straightforward. I never said they were inferior. You have chosen to see that in my post.

You implied it.  You know, like SHepard taking a breath 

[WhereEternityEnds]

iakus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Why are you strawmanning the argument and relying on ad hominem attacks?

All I said was that Western Narratives are straightforward. I never said they were inferior. You have chosen to see that in my post.

You implied it.  You know, like SHepard taking a breath 

He insinuated it when he used the term SPOON feeding originally.  You can't use SPOON FEEDING in a positive context like this.  Straightforward isn't the same thing as spoon feeding. 

[Taboo]

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

Except...I only used ad hominem because of your posts.  If you act like a hipster who thinks negatively of Western narrative (and don't deny it again, I know how to read between the lines)  then I'm going to treat you as such.   If you can't make a better and actual LEGITIMATE defense for why this open ended ending DOESN'T suck, then I'm not going to bother coming up with a decent arguments against it.  (not like I already haven't anyway)

You basically bashed ALL western narrative and then backpedaled when I called you out on it.  Your move. 

You resorted to a fallacy when you called me out?

There are plenty of Western films that have open narratives. As films have become more commerical, they have become more streamlined. They spoon feed the audience all of the information for this exact reason. People no longer wish to think. They want entertainment. There is nothing wrong with that. You have chosen to take this as an attack for whatever reason.

This is what has caused our clash here. Bioware wanted people to think and they FAILED when this game was originally released. But now, with the EC, everything has been cleared up, at least for some people.

If you go back twenty or thirty years, narratives made people think, they did not JUST entertain.

[Mcfly616]

"Seeing" a reunion would've been nice....but it was never the reason the original endings were bad.....therefore its absence in the EC is irrelevant.....people blatantly saying the EC is "bad" because there's no reunion, are simply incorrect.....

Modifié par Mcfly616, 30 juin 2012 - 03:24 .

[WhereEternityEnds]

OnelShot wrote...

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

Oh, I see the ilk of who we're dealing with here.  I'm guessing North American narrative is too "mainstream" for him.  *rolls eyes*  Good lord, who do you think you are? 

A country boy from Montana.

That's like a white man saying he's not racist against black people because he was born in South Africa.  Try again. 

I feel like you would be defending something like transformers 2 like this as well. 

No....Michael Bay has a tendency to treat black people and Non americans as comic relief.  That is kind of shady to me.  I wouldn't defend those two autobots either, but that doesn't matter because that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. 

Modifié par WhereEternityEnds, 30 juin 2012 - 03:24 .

[Taboo]

Michael Bay...is exactly what I'm talking about. Once you start to think, the entire thing falls apart. It's just nonsense entertainment. There's nothing wrong with that.

[3DandBeyond]

Heeden wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Ok, it's molestation.  It's the invasion of a person's body without permission.  It is forced.  The kid says it cannot be forced but if no consent is given (it wasn't) then Shepard is forcing it upon people.  There are broader uses of the word rape than of a sexual nature.  Mind rape and in fact, I worked in emergency services and anyone who has ever even had their house broken into will tell you it feels like they have been violated, in fact raped.

Synthesis was never something people said to Shepard was ok.  In fact, EDI spoke out against a similar idea, Mordin also, Legion as well, and more.  It is also the advancement of people before their time.  It fundamentally changes what people are and there were people in ME that did not even like implants.  Putting something in their bodies without permission is a violation.

The only choice where you could construe any implied consent is Destroy-that was the goal, you might even say Shepard was ordered to do it.  EDI told Shepard she was prepared to die, Legion showed the Geth might be as well.  I still hate it, think it's wrong.  But none of the other choices (even reject as immediate failure) were the goal.

It honestly sickens me the way you liken Synthesis and burglary to serious sexual assault. I mean really - I've never had to convince a person to report burglary because they felt so twisted up about the experience, and I've never heard of rape only affecting people who are willing to accept it.

It's fine to use the word violate, that's a perfectly valid way of describing the fact Shepard enacts a new paradigm without consultation or consent, but it's a far cry from what you are fixated on. If I play loud music I am violating other peoples ears, I won't be put on rape charges for it.

I'm not fixated on anything.  I said if you read what I wrote that I worked in emergency services.  I took calls-911 calls, dispatched emergency personnell-fire, rescue, and police.  And people that had been burglarized described the feeling as like being raped.  They felt dirty, wondered what the intruders had touched, and had similar mental issues to those that were sexually assaulted, but certainly not the same issues or to the same extent.  It's kind of like saying that someone who's been mentally abused does not suffer like someone who has been physically abused-it's based on the individual and their own threshold as to which is worse.  I know the ramifications of sexual assault, but even in Law Enforcement, there is no term "rape".  It is Criminal Sexual Conduct or Assault of varying degrees.  Rape is not a legal term.  It's an applied term.

I do not mean to diminish the pain anyone suffers, but rape has been used to describe the plunder or abuse of many things for a very long time now-at least the 1970s.  People that abuse the land, as in strip mining are said to be raping it.  And the word comes from an older word that means plunder or take by force.  One use is to describe forcible sex, but that is not the only use or meaning.  It is interchangeable depending upon use with violation.

Forcing something into someone else's body without consent is rape.  There are people that have even had things surgically inserted into their bodies without consent. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 juin 2012 - 03:30 .

[WhereEternityEnds]

Taboo-XX wrote...

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

Except...I only used ad hominem because of your posts.  If you act like a hipster who thinks negatively of Western narrative (and don't deny it again, I know how to read between the lines)  then I'm going to treat you as such.   If you can't make a better and actual LEGITIMATE defense for why this open ended ending DOESN'T suck, then I'm not going to bother coming up with a decent arguments against it.  (not like I already haven't anyway)

You basically bashed ALL western narrative and then backpedaled when I called you out on it.  Your move. 

You resorted to a fallacy when you called me out?

There are plenty of Western films that have open narratives. As films have become more commerical, they have become more streamlined. They spoon feed the audience all of the information for this exact reason. People no longer wish to think. They want entertainment. There is nothing wrong with that. You have chosen to take this as an attack for whatever reason.

This is what has caused our clash here. Bioware wanted people to think and they FAILED when this game was originally released. But now, with the EC, everything has been cleared up, at least for some people.

If you go back twenty or thirty years, narratives made people think, they did not JUST entertain.

I didn't use a fallacy.  But you clearly just contradicted yourself because apparently before...you thought ALL WESTERN NARRATIVE was spoon feeding.  As opposed to this post right here.  Are you new at this or something?  I haven't chosen to take anything as an attack when you posted it outright yourself. 

Modifié par WhereEternityEnds, 30 juin 2012 - 03:27 .

[crimzontearz]

Mcfly616 wrote..."Seeing" a reunion would've been nice....but it was never the reason the original endings were bad.....therefore its absence in the EC is irrelevant.....people blatantly saying the EC is "bad" because there's no reunion, are simply incorrect.....

That is all I wanted from EC, thus EC is bad for me

[Shaleist]

Mcfly616 wrote...

"Seeing" a reunion would've been nice....but it was never the reason the original endings were bad.....therefore its absence in the EC is irrelevant.....people blatantly saying the EC is "bad" because there's no reunion, are simply incorrect.....

The EC isn't bad for that reason. But the ending still is.  Blaming the EC for a bad ending is literally like me blaming my hammer if I did a ****ty job fixing my roof that I let decay for 15 years.

[Taboo]

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

I didn't use a fallacy.  But you clearly just contradicted yourself because apparently before...you thought ALL WESTERN NARRATIVE was spoon feeding.  As opposed to this post right here.  Are you new at this or something? 

You're doing it now. I said that it was common in Western Narrative. I never said all Western Narrative was this way. This game is evidence of that.

[OnelShot]

Mcfly616 wrote...

"Seeing" a reunion would've been nice....but it was never the reason the original endings were bad.....therefore its absence in the EC is irrelevant.....people blatantly saying the EC is "bad" because there's no reunion, are simply incorrect.....

Those are usually the people who pretend to care about plot holes or whatever else people complained about, but in the end they just wanted an all is happy ending, no matter how much it made sense. 

[CuseGirl]

Taboo-XX wrote...

MystEU wrote...

Is it correct to assume that if you get the breath scene, your plaque is never put up in the Normandy? In my ending, I went Destroy and got the breath scene, but Tali never actually put the thing above Anderson's. I figure that is the connection to the implied survival of Shepard, eh?

Yes. This ISN'T difficult to do people.

I havne't replayed it, but I swear to GOD that Liara put my plaque up but my LI was Miranda and I got the breath scene

[WhereEternityEnds]

Taboo-XX wrote...

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

I didn't use a fallacy.  But you clearly just contradicted yourself because apparently before...you thought ALL WESTERN NARRATIVE was spoon feeding.  As opposed to this post right here.  Are you new at this or something? 

You're doing it now. I said that it was common in Western Narrative. I never said all Western Narrative was this way. This game is evidence of that.

No.  You pretty much implied all western narrative was spoon feeding when you said "LOOK AT NARRATIVES OUTSIDE OF NORTH AMERICA" as an poor defense for this poorly thought out topic.