418 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

camcon2100 wrote...

It is plain! Shepard is shown breathing and alive!

And buried in rubble, alone, barely moving, with no one in sight to render aid.  

[CuseGirl]

Sisterofshane wrote...
Why is it necessary then to explicitly spell out that Shepard is rescued from the rubble and lives a long, happy life?

I think we're just accustomed to it. Especially when you're not only attached to Shepard, but attached to your LI or secondary character you consider your friend.

Also, with the percieved contempt or standoffishness from Bioware, some fans feel like positivity in the ending is being withheld to remind us that "you can't always get what you want because reasons".

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

*sigh* negative headcanoning.

If Shepard was gonna die shortly after the breath scene, why would Bioware include that scene at all? What's the narrative purpose of that scene if it's not suppose to imply that Shepard lives?

think people, think.

I am aware of what they're trying to imply.  But they are doing it badly.  And in fact, they should not be implying anything.  Implications and speculations caused this mess to being with.

[SpiritWolf448]

MegaSovereign wrote...

If Shepard was gonna die shortly after the breath scene, why would Bioware include that scene at all? What's the narrative purpose of that scene if it's not suppose to imply that Shepard lives?

The sole purpose of the scene was to get everybody speculating. Which worked flawlessly, obviously.

[mike the wolf luna_]

This is true the breathe scene lives u saying what the .... He is,alive but bioware should at least showed him getting helped by alliance or in the hospital after the creds some u know but come on bioware

[devSin]

Sisterofshane wrote...

It was never intended for all of us to believe that everyone on the citadel perished.  This was a symptom of the fact that the original endings were left highly ambiguous.  We the fans assumed that everyone on board died, just as we assumed that every system with a Mass Relay went supernova, though it was clearly not intended.  Hence the "context and clarity".  I wouldn't call that a "retcon" per se.

Mac said they were in for "bad times". Coupled with the original flowchart they had for the ME3 plot during development (with everything always ending in a new 10,000-year galactic dark age), I think it can be assumed the original intent was that most of the people on the Citadel died in the attack.

Just like it was the original intent that the relays would be permanently destroyed (although not like in Arrival—they legitimately goofed on that one), the fleet would more or less be stranded, the Normandy would be permanently stuck on a jungle planet (so they can walk out into the prehistoric jungle symbolizing the new beginning for life in the galaxy), and a lot of the other things that Patrick and John had to come out weeks later and claim weren't intended to be implied.

Sisterofshane wrote...

They purposefully show the LI hesitating to put up Shepard's plaque.  We see that the Citadel has been rebuilt, and we see Shepard's intact torso taking a breath.  I personally that is enough to assume that Shepard is found alive and will reunite with his/her crew.  It is certainly enough to decide that Shepard has survived the firing of the Crucible.  Why is it necessary then to explicitly spell out that Shepard is rescued from the rubble and lives a long, happy life?

I think it needs to be acknowledged in the game.

I think anything, even a word, that acknowledges that somebody, anybody at all in the story knows that Shepard is alive, would have been sufficient to give the player that feeling of relief and sense of victory.

Some people get it from the breath. I don't. The memorial scene doesn't necessarily work for it until you can compare it to the scene when Shepard dies (when I first saw it, I thought it was simply there to show the attachment and grief of the romance partner).

I know what they were doing. I would have been much happier if they had simply gone a little bit further. (I can live with what they ended up doing, but I can't love it—I just don't.)

Modifié par devSin, 30 juin 2012 - 04:35 .

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

I like how pro-EC people, just like the pro-enders they used to hate for the same reason, use the "you just don't get it" argument against people who don't like something. It's not like someone could "get it" but still think it was unsatisfying and poorly done or anything, not at all.

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 30 juin 2012 - 04:30 .

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

*sigh* negative headcanoning.

If Shepard was gonna die shortly after the breath scene, why would Bioware include that scene at all? What's the narrative purpose of that scene if it's not suppose to imply that Shepard lives?

think people, think.

I am aware of what they're trying to imply.  But they are doing it badly.  And in fact, they should not be implying anything.  Implications and speculations caused this mess to being with.

There is no extra speculation. Shepard lives. Do you really need a cliche Star Wars reunion scene to "confirm" this? 

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 30 juin 2012 - 04:31 .

[jeff359]

I Missed my imagination, a slightly open ending gives you a bit of direction if you're like me and haven't had to use it for a while. Unlike the old ending that was confusing and too open aka unfinished. Can't wait for the threads about who's imagination was right.

[Iakus]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

I like how pro-EC people, just like the pro-enders they used to hate for the same reason, use the "you just don't get it" argument against people who don't like something. It's not like someone could "get it" but still think it was unsatisfying and poorly done or anything, not at all.

You noticed that too?  

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

There is no extra speculation. Shepard lives. Do you really need a cliche Star Wars reunion scene to "confirm" this? 

Wou;dn't hurt.  But not absolutely necessary.  A scene of Shepard in a hospital wouyld be fine.  A line at the memorial saying Alliance has found SHepard alive.  A scene of rescue workers finding Shepard in the rubble.  A shot of Shepard standing up.  SOmething that carries beyond the breath scene showing SHepard is out of immediate danger of dying alone and forgotten on the Citadel.

[Sisterofshane]

CuseGirl wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Why is it necessary then to explicitly spell out that Shepard is rescued from the rubble and lives a long, happy life?

I think we're just accustomed to it. Especially when you're not only attached to Shepard, but attached to your LI or secondary character you consider your friend.

Also, with the percieved contempt or standoffishness from Bioware, some fans feel like positivity in the ending is being withheld to remind us that "you can't always get what you want because reasons".

This is what I think happened.  I personally would have loved a scene like after you slay the Archdemon in DA:O, and you get a final chance to reconnect with your team or say goodbye.  Does this mean that I am going to automatically assume that Shepard didn't get a happy ending because it wasn't shown to me?

It's like MegaSovereign said - if they didn't intend for us to assume Shepard was alive (and stayed that way long enough to reunite), why would they give us two very strong narrative clues that suggested it was so?

[MegaSovereign]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

I like how pro-EC people, just like the pro-enders they used to hate for the same reason, use the "you just don't get it" argument against people who don't like something. It's not like someone could "get it" but still think it was unsatisfying and poorly done or anything, not at all.

Well, I'm going to be honest with you.

I think some of you need to step back, take a breath, and re-read exactly *what* you're complaining about post-EC. . Pre-EC, I undertstood the frustration people had with the vague-ness and plotholes..but post-EC it's just so damn trivial that I can't take it seriously.

And no, pro-EC people and pro-enders are not the same crowd. I've seen plenty of retakers admit that they loved the EC.

[G1MEE50K]

There's a huge difference between the way ME2 handled it and the way ME3 handled it. While it does create suspense, it's SHEPARD. Ya know, the guy/girl you've taken control of for the last 3 games? This was also the last game of the trilogy, closure is necessary (especially in due to the main character) The way ME2 handled it was fine, because you can play when the game ends and see the status of your squad, or during the "ending" cinematic. I'll use an example. Let's say the ending of Harry Potter was different. Let's say he kills Voldemort but also happens to get himself in a situation that cuts to black in which you don't know if he lives or dies. Then, after the credits, you see him breathe. (this is a horrible example I know) But it's just not right. You can't build a character to only flash something like that, and then provide no closure in the finale of the series.

And yes, there's no question. W/5000(+) EMS and the destroy ending Shepard DOES survive. This is proven fact in the guidebook of ME3. However Bioware's "closure" has proven to be a load of crap.

[ShepnTali]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

I like how pro-EC people, just like the pro-enders they used to hate for the same reason, use the "you just don't get it" argument against people who don't like something. It's not like someone could "get it" but still think it was unsatisfying and poorly done or anything, not at all.

This is true. This isn't about thinking or understanding. This is about emotional satisfaction. Some get it from the breath, others don't. It's not right or wrong.

[CuseGirl]

Sisterofshane wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Why is it necessary then to explicitly spell out that Shepard is rescued from the rubble and lives a long, happy life?

I think we're just accustomed to it. Especially when you're not only attached to Shepard, but attached to your LI or secondary character you consider your friend.

Also, with the percieved contempt or standoffishness from Bioware, some fans feel like positivity in the ending is being withheld to remind us that "you can't always get what you want because reasons".

This is what I think happened.  I personally would have loved a scene like after you slay the Archdemon in DA:O, and you get a final chance to reconnect with your team or say goodbye.  Does this mean that I am going to automatically assume that Shepard didn't get a happy ending because it wasn't shown to me?

It's like MegaSovereign said - if they didn't intend for us to assume Shepard was alive (and stayed that way long enough to reunite), why would they give us two very strong narrative clues that suggested it was so?

Well, I'm not of the "I dont believe Shepard survived" ilk. I know he lives with high enough EMS and the destroy choice. But for me, personally, I was really hoping to see my Shepard experience a moment of the galaxy he worked so hard to save.

And when I said "we're accustomed to it", I meant overall in storytelling. Like HP, like Star Wars, like Pirates (showing Keira Knightley and her son waiting for Orlando Bloom to come back), yes, people like that stuff. Is it cheesy? If you say so. But it generally goes over well.

Also, it pisses me off that pieces of the dialogue aren't completed full circle. I'm sure you've seen some fans on here with the signature photo "Find Miranda". I mean, when she said that line, I initially thought "this is gonna lead somewhere". It's disappointing that I have to make it up in my head. Why can't Shep crawl over a dead Reaper, see Miranda hopping out of that fighter jet, and embrace her? Why not? That's the question that needs to be asked, not "why should they tell you what happened?" 

[dreamgazer]

MegaSovereign wrote...

There is no extra speculation. Shepard lives. Do you really need a cliche Star Wars reunion scene to "confirm" this? 

And this actually defaults to what Ms. Merizan said on Twitter: anything they came up with wouldn't be nearly as good as what you can come up with in your mind.

You have A, and you have C.  Have a blast fleshing out B. 

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

ShepnTali wrote...

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

I like how pro-EC people, just like the pro-enders they used to hate for the same reason, use the "you just don't get it" argument against people who don't like something. It's not like someone could "get it" but still think it was unsatisfying and poorly done or anything, not at all.

This is true. This isn't about thinking or understanding. This is about emotional satisfaction. Some get it from the breath, others don't. It's not right or wrong.

Someone gets it.

[Sisterofshane]

CuseGirl wrote...
Well, I'm not of the "I dont believe Shepard survived" ilk. I know he lives with high enough EMS and the destroy choice. But for me, personally, I was really hoping to see my Shepard experience a moment of the galaxy he worked so hard to save.

And when I said "we're accustomed to it", I meant overall in storytelling. Like HP, like Star Wars, like Pirates (showing Keira Knightley and her son waiting for Orlando Bloom to come back), yes, people like that stuff. Is it cheesy? If you say so. But it generally goes over well.

Also, it pisses me off that pieces of the dialogue aren't completed full circle. I'm sure you've seen some fans on here with the signature photo "Find Miranda". I mean, when she said that line, I initially thought "this is gonna lead somewhere". It's disappointing that I have to make it up in my head. Why can't Shep crawl over a dead Reaper, see Miranda hopping out of that fighter jet, and embrace her? Why not? That's the question that needs to be asked, not "why should they tell you what happened?" 

And, as I thought I said, I understand that.  Taboo has also said that there is nothing wrong with that style of explicit narrative.  It's perfectly fine to want the celebratory ending, with no loose ends.  I would have really liked it, too.

The issue I personally take is those saying that it's not enough to confirm whether Shepard lived (especially considering all of the outside media confirmations, like the guide book and the dev tweets).  We've accepted that it is Shepard (remember everyone thinking that because the face isn't shown that it isn't Shepard?).  They've clarified that the Normandy is NOT stranded on Gilligan's Planet (good for all of those concerned that Shepard is now forced to live without ever seeing the crew he fought so hard to protect).

What we want to show is that the narrative clearly implies that he/she is alive.  It is meant to be a "relief" type moment, not a moment to be scrutinized for every detail.  You don't have to like that style of narrative, you especially don't have to like it at the end of your Mass Effect Trilogy.  You can't deny, though, that (unlike the original endings), this is more of an emotional response then one of confusion.

[CuseGirl]

Sisterofshane wrote...
And, as I thought I said, I understand that.  Taboo has also said that there is nothing wrong with that style of explicit narrative.  It's perfectly fine to want the celebratory ending, with no loose ends.  I would have really liked it, too.

The issue I personally take is those saying that it's not enough to confirm whether Shepard lived (especially considering all of the outside media confirmations, like the guide book and the dev tweets).  We've accepted that it is Shepard (remember everyone thinking that because the face isn't shown that it isn't Shepard?).  They've clarified that the Normandy is NOT stranded on Gilligan's Planet (good for all of those concerned that Shepard is now forced to live without ever seeing the crew he fought so hard to protect).

What we want to show is that the narrative clearly implies that he/she is alive.  It is meant to be a "relief" type moment, not a moment to be scrutinized for every detail.  You don't have to like that style of narrative, you especially don't have to like it at the end of your Mass Effect Trilogy.  You can't deny, though, that (unlike the original endings), this is more of an emotional response then one of confusion.

I buy it, that Shep is alive. God, ME-3 is so rife with weak writing I can't believe I suckered in by ME-2....

[Mystiq6]

I stopped reading at page 5 because the arguments are just back and forth with no explanation for either side. I understand the scenes may be out of order (Pulp Fiction used this to great effect) but that is not the reason I am annoyed by the breath, more so with the Extended Cut than I was with the original endings. Pardon my over-use of "spoon-fed" but I need to use it because it helps me explain myself.

This is not about being spoon-fed, and I find that comment unnecessary and inappropriate. The Extended Cut improved the execution of the endings a great deal but in trying to push Synthesis as the "best" ending, they probably had to gut Destroy as a happy ending because with the reunion (or at least Shepard being found, which I guess still counts as reunion), it would easily be the only choice I'd consider. In keeping Destroy fatalistic, Synthesis and Control don't look as bad by comparison. I'm basically saying the execution of the endings are still not ideal. The idea is certainly there.

I get that they don't want the endings all roses (or at least, morally ambiguous), and as I've said in many other threads I'm perfectly fine with that. Never Let Me Go is a wonderful movie with a very sad ending. I don't need something spoon-fed to me but what I do need is more than just implications, especially when it had been said there would be a reunion, and Garrus so wanted to go to a bar with Shepard. There's a hard to find line between a good, open ending and something that tries but doesn't work and often times, it's very much an opinion between different people.

"You don't need to be given a complete picture of what happens if what happens is implied well enough."

"I want closure!"

As far as the breath is concerned, I'm with the second group of people. Let's take an odd example. . Listen to this song from 3:10 to the end. It doesn't feel finished, does it? When you get to the end, is your reaction to the music just like mine and you every time you hear it you play what you perceive as the missing note in your head? Do you wish they'd included that missing note in the song? Why does it feel like there's a missing note when you've never heard the end of that song before? You've heard endings vaguely similar to this and you know what to expect.

When you don't hear that note, you probably get sad (or at least, maybe a little annoyed) because your brain predicted that note would come and it didn't. Did the band not include it because they didn't want to spoon-feed their audience? They probably did it because they knew people would perceive a missing note and they wanted to convey something. Does it work for me? No, it really just annoys me whenever I hear that song.

My favorite example on the other end of the spectrum is Inception. The ending to that movie is wide open to interpretation, and it was clearly intended on the writer's part. The movie's ending gave closure to the vast majority of events but because the top only jiggled and didn't actually fall, you can argue either way if Cobb got out or he's stuck in limbo for the next 80 mind-years. This open ending is satisfying. Why?

Nearly everything you predicted would happen did happen, plot threads are closed, and then the movie goes and casts doubts on it. You know he'll actually get out and won't have aged a bit in real life, and what you saw is plausibly what happens whenever he does get out. You know very clearly what's going to happen. This movie has an ending: plot threads are tied up and you know how the character's lives play out. There's closure. You don't know what happens to Sato (or whatever his name is) but you don't really care. He goes on being Sato.

My favorite on the same lines as In the End are all those bad horror movies that have twist endings or try to pull "open" endings or just end very abruptly or off the main character at the last minute. It's very difficult to separate what makes an ending unsatisfying or confusing, and when the ending is simply bad. Criticizing a movie is difficult. You may have watched a movie and felt annoyed by the ending, or other parts of the movie.

There's a good chance the ending was simply bad and it wasn't that you just didn't get it. Almost everyone I've asked has said they like the first Transformers movie. I couldn't help but thinking, "WHAT?" The scene with one of the Transformers tip-toeing around a house was unbelievable to me. Here's this 300 ton robot with footsteps as light as a cat, and the parents don't notice him. I've seen plenty of movies I like but recognize as not good.

The breath scene, combined with other scenes, definitely implies Shepard is alive, that the Normandy or other finds him, rescues him and my Ashley and Shepard ride off into the sunset, drinking mamosas with Garrus somewhere in Atlanic City. What gets me with this tease of a scene is that what I expect to happen -- because it's in the other endings, and was heavily implied during the final moments of Priority: Earth -- is to see a heartwarming moment between any of my crew members and Shepard being found alive. That is closure, seeing an emotional climax. I want to know what happens to the guy I've spent so much time getting to know. I expect to see Shepard's future.

Cobb saw his kids. If that moment didn't happen, I would probably be just as upset with the ending to Inception as I am about Destroy.

Let's take Transformers. The autobots find the all-spark. Optimus Prime reaches out for it and it cuts to credits. What? But it's implied the autobots win! Or how about The Avengers. Tony leads the missile up into the portal to the Chitauri ship. It explodes. Tony is falling back to the portal and as he nears it, it cuts to credits. Why would you find this variation on the endings totally unsatisfying? It's not about being spoon-fed and it's not because they are just open endings.

I may not be able to explain this as well as someone else but I've done my best.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 30 juin 2012 - 06:00 .

[Kenisis88]

Thanks for the post OP! I'm a bit ashamed I didn't notice this before, so many props for making this thread. Gamble mentioned the Destroy memorial scene on Twitter I believe; so it is something to certainly take note of. My question is, how might this impact any future ME games? Will the Destroy ending be considered the "canonical" ending?

[III Achilles II]

No let's go off the same medium. If you exclude movies, what other video games have rearranged the endings?

Halo 3 ending with MC going into Cryo. Now we have Halo 4 and MC is the hero. The truth is that EA and Bioware love to make money. With ME being one of their most successful series, then we will see an ME4 announcement with Shepard picking up the fight against the Reapers. The leviathan of dis content proves this.

They most likely will release the LoD content to coincide witht he annoucement of ME4 where you'll start learning more about how to defeat the Reapers once and for all.

And before I get 100 comments asking or telling me that this is stupid because what would they do. You have a battle with Harbinger, Illusive Man, and actually having a climactic fight UP the citadel.

Think back to ME1. We battled up the entire citadel. ME series has a lot of room left to tell Shepard's story.

If you guys enjoy trying to rearrange scenes to make sense of the breathe scene then here's some foreshadowing. On the EC, the refusal ending drops a major hint. They redid the final stargazer scene to say something like "These are one of the FEW stories I have, but I can tell you ONE more."

3=few, we have 3 games
1 more means ME4 will be the final epic conclusion with epilogue that we've all been dying for.

[RenegonSQ]

Regardless, your still alive and nobody has found you yet. I don't see why this is relevant. Did I get lost somewhere? If so, help me find my place.

[sporeaddict101]

 Okay, I chose the destroy ending where I breathed at the end, meaning I am alive or dying (after the blast I would've died right away). So was the star child<_<(catalyst) lying when it said I would die along with the Geth and EDI since I'm part synthetic? (I named those particular synthetics) Because on the wall of the fallen, when my LI was pausing to put the plaque on, I saw EDI's name insinuating she was dead. But how come I am alive and she is dead, since we are both part/synthetic? I really want to know if this will be answered, if there is an explanation, if it is bad writing, or something else. Or maybe I'm missing something really obvious:pinched:, I'm not sure. Please reply:blink: