418 réponses à ce sujet

[Denethar]

If I pay 80 dollar for some form of entertainment, I don't want "headcanon" to be the answer to my questions about the main character. In a movie, fine, in a book, perhaps....but in a series of games where I have spent a few hundred hours, no way.

Think if Harry potter got that breath scene in the last book and then the whole thing ended. People would have raged 10 times worse than we did about this game.

[Biosman]

In it's present ending state, the "breathe" scene is obsolete, it should have been removed or patched out, it has no relevance to the game...UNLESS Bioware is going to make Mass Effect 4 with Shep alive, the problem with a sequel is as it stands, Bioware would need to make three seperate games right? or even 4 because of the refuse scene?
The only way is it was all IT, shep lies in the rubble, the war is still going on, he is indoctrinated and the only way to defeat the reapers is...with another reaper LoD.
It's the only way for the team to carry on where they left off, but this is only speculation,

[Reorte]

I get what the breath and plaque scene are supposed to mean and I've seen the same sort of cliched implying cliffhanger nonsense before. That doesn't mean that my mind therefore accepts it as proof because it isn't proof - there's a huge gap between probably and definitely. What we actually know is that Shepard is mostly dead (there's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead) and that the LI (not sure what happens if you don't have one - same thing from whoever else is holding the name?) hasn't a clue but won't give in hoping. That's all we know, even if the intention is to suggest more.

Anyway, even if the breath scene had been replaced by a very alive Shepard in a hospital bed but on his own it would've still been very unsatisfying. As I've said before, it would feel like having the Tuchanka mission replaced by an email saying "Genophage cured, Mordin dead." Tells us all we need to know but hardly fulfilling.

[Bfler]

They should have shown Shepard alive before the memorial scene, not with a breath scene but maybe in hospital or looking to the sky to symbolize that he waits for his friends. Then at last the memorial scene to show that your people also know that you are not dead, although they are far away.
The breath scene destroys the feeling you get when the music fades out and the Normandy ascends to the space.

[Vinny]

 Instead of posting a wall of text (my english is a disaster sometimes), i'll take an example :

www.youtube.com/watch

So the film lasts 8 minutes and 23 seconds. The original endings felt like the last 20 seconds were cut and the Extended Cut gave us some answers, not all of them but enough to keep a certain balance between what we're supposed to understand and what we can imagine/headcanon/whatever.
Without the EC, ME3 (and the previous episodes) felt like a race against time with no purpose.

[Daverid]

I'll tell you how to understand the Breath Scene in a list of simple steps.

1. Remind yourself of the Original Opening cutscene/s from ME2. Remeber Shepard being put back together and the fact that he is now a Heavily Synthetic fused Human Being? O.K Good!

2. Remind yourself that the Beam has one purpose in Destroy and one Purpose ALONE. Completely unaffected by EMS because something labelled as "Effective Military Strength" has no bearing on the Crucible's Beam. This purpose is to destroy ALL SYNTHETICS. O.K Good!

3. Remind yourself that even though alot of what Space Child says is annoying and Crap. One thing he does say is true, "The Crucible will not discriminate.. Even YOU are partly Synthetic". O.K Good!

4. Proceed to make the connection between the fact that Shepard is Partly/Heavily Synthetic, when the Beam fires he HAS TO DIE. It's completely implausible that a Beam designed to wipe out ALL Synthetics decides to target and destroy such Synthetics as: EDI and the Geth, but somehow by Space Magic doesn't kill Shepard.

5. Realise Shepard is Dead. BioWare or Casey or Mac (whatever), even though they enjoy fluffing on and on about 'Their' Vision and Artistic Integrity, actually were influenced by the fans to keep the Breathing scene in so people could just forget about what Shepard is an how the Destroy Beam works and pretend he's alive.

Congratulations. The Breathing Scene makes sense now, however the Irony is that by making sense of the Breathing Scene, we now realise that Destroy was and still is in the EC, a load of rubbish. And No. The other Endings are not any better either, but this topic is focusing on Destroy and Breathing Scene.

[3DandBeyond]

ShepnTali wrote...

I think the valid beef is, if Twitter confirms it, why not something simple? Why not a simple, single still shot of Shepard hammering some nails on Rannoch, or Shep's hand around Liara's pregnant tummy. These are simple easy to do things that is nothing but a win scenario for them.

And since everyone sees twitter as the valid place to state what something means in a videogame rather than in the game itself (yes I know Shepard lives), then why would JM tell people before the EC release that there would be a reunion, but afterward when people asked why there wasn't one say because there clearly was in your imagination?

I don't think something simple would have hurt anyone and certainly not all of the rest of you that think Inception and ME are the same type of thing.  Inception sucked, stupid predictable movie with way far less of a viewer/player involvement than ME.  In ME, the player is Shepard.  In Inception the protagonist is a guy on the screen.  There's no comparison at all.

I'll put it in terms that might ring true for some of you.  Understand that for me the reunion didn't mean it had to be about sex or something explicit.  I personally didn't care if they showed anything like that in the game, but where they did it tastefully, it worked and was done well.  Ok, not having a reunion (especially with, but not only with LI) is like not finishing sex.  You can finish off yourself or why not just imagine you did.  And, if that's all you ever get everytime you have sex, well so what?  Aren't you smart enough to take care of it on your own?  Sure, you can "do it" yourself to completion, but it's much more fun, much more rewarding, much more satisfying if you don't have to.  Even a little help can mean a lot.

I make no apologies for being a hopeless romantic.  I didn't need to see some overly long reunion that showed everything.  But, when I read a story or watch a movie where there's a great conflict that consistently rips the two lovers apart and creates a constant perceived notion that it will always be difficult for them to find one another, in the final moments of the story as part of the epilogue I would like to know by being shown, by seeing, that they finally did find one another again.  That is something that I can imagine, but I should not have to and no, it is not usually done in the best books, best movies, and shouldn't be done in a game that you PLAY.  ME was never as dark a game as the ending is and as it still is now.

You can't in truth compare ME to anything like a movie or a book-they are non-interactive.  You made choices, directed Shepard in ME and Shepard was your stand in.  I've read numerous posts where people worked really hard to get Shepard to look like them.  And so in some ways, they became Shepard.   And the corollary in real life is the photos we take of momentous moments in our lives.  Someone takes your wedding photos.  They don't stop taking photos once you have kissed and been married.  They take photos of you as a couple.  You document all the great things that happen along the way through your life-birth of a child and so on.  Why?  Can't you remember these moments?  And what is the one thing people worry about if there home is destroyed by something?  Their photos.  Why?  Can't they use their imagination or just remember?  Yes, they can, but people like to see things.

I wanted to see Shepard happy at last.  Not everything, but just one thing.

[3DandBeyond]

Bfler wrote...

They should have shown Shepard alive before the memorial scene, not with a breath scene but maybe in hospital or looking to the sky to symbolize that he waits for his friends. Then at last the memorial scene to show that your people also know that you are not dead, although they are far away.
The breath scene destroys the feeling you get when the music fades out and the Normandy ascends to the space.

Even this would be way better.  That's all it took-show Shepard really alive, knowing what has happened.  Just some small homage to Shepard-the hero.

[3DandBeyond]

Denethar wrote...

If I pay 80 dollar for some form of entertainment, I don't want "headcanon" to be the answer to my questions about the main character. In a movie, fine, in a book, perhaps....but in a series of games where I have spent a few hundred hours, no way.

Think if Harry potter got that breath scene in the last book and then the whole thing ended. People would have raged 10 times worse than we did about this game.

This exactly.

[Heeden]

Daverid wrote...

2. Remind yourself that the Beam has one purpose in Destroy and one Purpose ALONE. Completely unaffected by EMS because something labelled as "Effective Military Strength" has no bearing on the Crucible's Beam. This purpose is to destroy ALL SYNTHETICS. O.K Good!

3. Remind yourself that even though alot of what Space Child says is annoying and Crap. One thing he does say is true, "The Crucible will not discriminate.. Even YOU are partly Synthetic". O.K Good!

Now watch the scene with a high EMS, where the Catalyst says the beam will mostly affect Reapers but other technology will be damaged.

Watch the epilogue showing the future, narrated by Hackett.

See your love interest (or stand-in if unavailable) very obviously not placing your name on the memorial wall.

See Shepard breath.

Conclude that Shepard is alive to participate in the future you just saw.

Rebuild EDI and the Geth.

Ride a unicorn.

[Jadebaby]

devSin wrote...

I think this scene was created simply to convey that Shepard didn't die in the explosion. It says nothing as to whether Shepard actually lives, and that's what was needed for the extended cut.

[OchreJelly]

While you may technically be correct in how it can be taken, I doubt that they really put that much thought into it. A safe bet is that it's merely there because it's a relic from the old endings, and they didn't want to expand or replace it, while still keeping the "intent."

Which is it means whatever the heck you want. Speculation anew. 

Modifié par OchreJelly, 30 juin 2012 - 03:29 .

[Jadebaby]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Denethar wrote...

If I pay 80 dollar for some form of entertainment, I don't want "headcanon" to be the answer to my questions about the main character. In a movie, fine, in a book, perhaps....but in a series of games where I have spent a few hundred hours, no way.

Think if Harry potter got that breath scene in the last book and then the whole thing ended. People would have raged 10 times worse than we did about this game.

This exactly.

[Iakus]

Bfler wrote...

They should have shown Shepard alive before the memorial scene, not with a breath scene but maybe in hospital or looking to the sky to symbolize that he waits for his friends. Then at last the memorial scene to show that your people also know that you are not dead, although they are far away.
The breath scene destroys the feeling you get when the music fades out and the Normandy ascends to the space.

QFT

[TheDarkStorm13]

I also chose the destroy ending and had the scene where I breathed. I guess they really don't care about a living Shepard. What I don't get is if you can die in Mass Effect 2, but survive if everyone is loyal. In Mass Effect 3 if your Galatic Readiness is high enough and you pick the destroy ending Shepard takes the breath. Why can't Miranda just rebuild Commander Shepard if he or she dies again. I mean hello the Lazurus Project. They didn't put the plaque of Shepard's name in the EC, meaning that he or she survived or is missing. There has to be something wrong here, or just really horrible writing on their part.

[CuseGirl]

TheDarkStorm13 wrote...
I also chose the destroy ending and had the scene where I breathed. I guess they really don't care about a living Shepard. What I don't get is if you can die in Mass Effect 2, but survive if everyone is loyal. In Mass Effect 3 if your Galatic Readiness is high enough and you pick the destroy ending Shepard takes the breath. Why can't Miranda just rebuild Commander Shepard if he or she dies again. I mean hello the Lazurus Project. They didn't put the plaque of Shepard's name in the EC, meaning that he or she survived or is missing. There has to be something wrong here, or just really horrible writing on their part.

Nobody has the neccessary creds to rebuild Shepard, so you can't really throw the Lazarus project in there again.

But your first statement, "they don't care about a living Shepard", I don't think that they don't care, I think they don't WANT a living Shepard but at the same time, they don't want fans to freak out and say "Shepard dies in all the endings, I'm done with the game". Because lets be real, this breath scene is only thing that's keeping some fans from trading it back. The game lacks replayability if Shepard dies no matter what.

And yes, I know the game was about saving the galaxy. But the average video game player is mostly concerned with a handful of characters close to them and their own Shepard. Honestly, I don't care about the whole Geth race. I dont care about the Quarians. I care about my LI, myself, and most of my crew. If there was absolutely no chance for Shepard to live, I trade the game in immediately.

[Loreshield]

It absolutely BOGGLES my mind how people don't seem to even think about the POSSIBILITY that the narrative sequence and the sequence it "really" all takes place in are not the same.

I mean, the only explanation that constantly creeps into my brain is that people are just not able to process this, or anything beyond a linear string of events, really. But I reject that. It can not be.

It just... Can not. :'(

Alright, I'm fine. Seriously, people, it's OK. This kinda shtick has been done a bajillion times before in storytelling.

Thanks, Taboo, for getting the word out..........

[Iakus]

Loreshield wrote...

It absolutely BOGGLES my mind how people don't seem to even think about the POSSIBILITY that the narrative sequence and the sequence it "really" all takes place in are not the same.

I mean, the only explanation that constantly creeps into my brain is that people are just not able to process this, or anything beyond a linear string of events, really. But I reject that. It can not be.

It just... Can not. :'(

Alright, I'm fine. Seriously, people, it's OK. This kinda shtick has been done a bajillion times before in storytelling.

Thanks, Taboo, for getting the word out..........

THe problem isn't the sequence, it's that there's a piece missing:  SHepard being found.

[SpiritWolf448]

Loreshield wrote...

This kinda shtick has been done a bajillion times before in storytelling.

Ah, but has it been done before in the Mass Effect series?
Mass Effect, so far, has been pretty cheesy/straightforward/to-the-face (whatever you want to call it). Did it occur to you that people may simply not have expected them to pull a new stunt after 2 7/8 games of straigtforward story progression?

[The Smitchens]

nitefyre410 wrote...

If you seen enough movies you have seen this trick done a million times

Yeah, and far more complexly at that.  It's not like they went all Pulp Fiction on us.  I thought it was a joke at first when I saw posts about chronological confusion start to surface.

[The Smitchens]

SpiritWolf448 wrote...

Ah, but has it been done before in the Mass Effect series?

Does it matter?  Should BioWare conform everything they do to a demographic of dunces?

[Loreshield]

iakus wrote...

Loreshield wrote...

It absolutely BOGGLES my mind how people don't seem to even think about the POSSIBILITY that the narrative sequence and the sequence it "really" all takes place in are not the same.

I mean, the only explanation that constantly creeps into my brain is that people are just not able to process this, or anything beyond a linear string of events, really. But I reject that. It can not be.

It just... Can not. :'(

Alright, I'm fine. Seriously, people, it's OK. This kinda shtick has been done a bajillion times before in storytelling.

Thanks, Taboo, for getting the word out..........

THe problem isn't the sequence, it's that there's a piece missing:  SHepard being found.

Oh, believe me, I get that. I've always been a sucker for happy endings (not necessarily overly Disney-esque, but everything working out in the end and all that... Think the endings to the Indiana Jones movies... You know... The THREE that have been made - don't know where that "crystall skull" rumor came from).

However, not to get that old Alfred hitchcock quote down from the attic again, is it REALLY so bad if we fill in some of the gaps ourselves?

The problem with the old endings was that a reunion with Shep and - in my case - Liara was not only completely hanging in the air, but actually HIGHLY UNLIKELY, if you though about it. Now, however, it is completely possible. Even more than that, it is HIGHLY LIKELY. I mean, the breath scene would not exist to show us a "last breath", at least not in that form. It rather shows that he is badly beaten, but alive. After all, cyborg death god IS hard to kill, yo. So if the LI decides to look for him (and there's not a whole lot of places the LI would NEED to look for him at), she'll probably find him alive.

And the memorial scene? If Shep survives and the LI smiles instead of putting the plate on the memorial wall, why would she smile if not because she has hope? Or a feeling, a premonition (it's LOEV, atfer all, dammit!) that they can be reunited?

"Teehee, Shep's dead, but Javik told me a funny joke, so let me just guffaw while I, paralyzed by laughter, can not put his memorial plate up! xD"

Somehow, I don't see her smiling for THAT reason. After the cut, it probably went a little more like this:

"Joker, how fast can we have the ship operational?"

"Liara, you should take your time. I know how close you-"

"It's not that. We had to postpone the time for mourning often enough - we can do it once more. Let's get one more mission done first."

"What did you have in mind?"

"We know where Shepard was last. Let's get to the Citadel. Admiral Hackett's orders didn't sit well with you, anyway."

"Yes, mam!"

Aaaaand then they find him and everything's hunky-dory. Blue babies and all that. And I'd like to think that this fantasy doesn't come from BioWare leaving me hanging, but me being so invested and feeling so close to these fictional characters after a hundred hours (per playhthrough, mind you) that it's just a given FOR ME that it happens like this.

So, while I definitely get your point, one of the big problems with the original ending, the reunion being essentially out of the damn question, doesn't exist any more now.

EDIT:

SpiritWolf448 wrote...

Loreshield wrote...

This kinda shtick has been done a bajillion times before in storytelling.

Ah, but has it been done before in the Mass Effect series?
Mass Effect, so far, has been pretty cheesy/straightforward/to-the-face (whatever you want to call it). Did it occur to you that people may simply not have expected them to pull a new stunt after 2 7/8 games of straigtforward story progression? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

To quote Anderson: True enough. But this is not a thematic break like the original endings were, this is a cutting technique. A technical move of storytelling. I don't remember a whole lot of low-angle-shots in the trilogy, but I really wouldn't mind if they suddenly started appearing more frequently.

Modifié par Loreshield, 30 juin 2012 - 05:04 .

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Now watch the scene with a high EMS, where the Catalyst says the beam will mostly affect Reapers but other technology will be damaged.

Watch the epilogue showing the future, narrated by Hackett.

See your love interest (or stand-in if unavailable) very obviously not placing your name on the memorial wall.

See Shepard breath.

Conclude that Shepard is alive to participate in the future you just saw.

Rebuild EDI and the Geth.

Ride a unicorn.

I was actually planning on becoming the next Pinball Wizard and overtaking that jackass Tommy. Then Garrus and I can form a punk rock band and call ourselves Marauder Shields.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Tabs you can't rebuild the Geth anymore then you can fight Reapers conventionally (apparently), Geth VI is not Legion.