418 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Tabs you can't rebuild the Geth anymore then you can fight Reapers conventionally (apparently), Geth VI is not Legion.

You can't repair them. But you can rebuild them. They would be new beings in this case.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Tabs you can't rebuild the Geth anymore then you can fight Reapers conventionally (apparently), Geth VI is not Legion.

You can't repair them. But you can rebuild them. They would be new beings in this case.

So do it just to spite the Catalyst? I kinda like that.

[Taboo]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Tabs you can't rebuild the Geth anymore then you can fight Reapers conventionally (apparently), Geth VI is not Legion.

You can't repair them. But you can rebuild them. They would be new beings in this case.

So do it just to spite the Catalyst? I kinda like that.

People think my choice is driven by Miranda. It isn't. One base principle I hold invalidates the other two choices right off the bat.

I cannot interfere past stopping the Reapers. An AI Shepard does that. As does Synthesis.

I have to choose Destroy based on this alone. I kind of like the "Heart of Darkness" vibe to it.

[krukow]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Tabs you can't rebuild the Geth anymore then you can fight Reapers conventionally (apparently), Geth VI is not Legion.

You can't repair them. But you can rebuild them. They would be new beings in this case.

Are you sure you can rebuild them? I mean, I know if there are geth pieces left, you can rebuild per Tali's loyalty mission.  However, what if they get disintigrated (or whatever) like those husks in the cutscene where there's nothing left?

[Taboo]

Well, we never see any dead Geth. They are not ALL Reaper.

The Husks are, or more so.

The Husks malfunctioned and blew up in my game. Like a chip exploding in their head.

[Lord Goose]

I think it is almost impossible to get Shepard after the ending, because in many ways Shepard IS player. It isn't possible to create his future without player. He may suffer from survivor's guilt, because he survived, while geth and EDI are not. He maybe happy, may feel sadness. May decide, that live isn't worth it and simply perish in ruins of the citadel. Too much unknown.

It is the same reason why after Control he is not Shepard anymore.

[Taboo]

Yeah, I know I would feel guilt after doing it. But I also know my Shepard would take responsibility for his actions.

But that's my choice. He survives in my scenario, and in Bioware's.

[MissMaster_2]

OnelShot wrote...

Yeah kinda sad how people miss how they did this.

This, it is not that hard to understand. 

[Lord Goose]

No, he simply awakens in ruines. Meaning that he may either continue life as he wants, or decide that it isn't and just lose all will to live.

Breath scene is a good way to show that Shepard isn't killed by explosion, and left his ultimate fate decided by Shepard.

[Taboo]

Lord Goose wrote...

No, he simply awakens in ruines. Meaning that he may either continue life as he wants, or decide that it isn't and just lose all will to live.

Breath scene is a good way to show that Shepard isn't killed by explosion, and left his ultimate fate decided by Shepard.

That's...the point of this thread.

Bioware wanted you to decide what happens next.

They even said so. Was I not clear?

[DocJill]

No, you're wrong. Shepard held his breath for 2 months until after the Normandy was repaired. Duh.

[Taboo]

DocJill wrote...

No, you're wrong. Shepard held his breath for 2 months until after the Normandy was repaired. Duh.

Well, breaking the "longest holding of breath" in the galaxy WAS one my Shepard's goals.

[Iakus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

No, he simply awakens in ruines. Meaning that he may either continue life as he wants, or decide that it isn't and just lose all will to live.

Breath scene is a good way to show that Shepard isn't killed by explosion, and left his ultimate fate decided by Shepard.

That's...the point of this thread.

Bioware wanted you to decide what happens next.

They even said so. Was I not clear?

If I wanted Shepard dead, I'd just pick another ending.  Because all of the others have Shepard definitively dead.  But it was too much bother to make a definitively alive one?

[Taboo]

iakus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

No, he simply awakens in ruines. Meaning that he may either continue life as he wants, or decide that it isn't and just lose all will to live.

Breath scene is a good way to show that Shepard isn't killed by explosion, and left his ultimate fate decided by Shepard.

That's...the point of this thread.

Bioware wanted you to decide what happens next.

They even said so. Was I not clear?

If I wanted Shepard dead, I'd just pick another ending.  Because all of the others have Shepard definitively dead.  But it was too much bother to make a definitively alive one?

He is alive. Bioware has stated this. It even says so in game files. EVERYTHING about the way the scene is, including how it's edited tells you this.

[Iakus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

He is alive. Bioware has stated this. It even says so in game files. EVERYTHING about the way the scene is, including how it's edited tells you this.

Okay,  to expand.  That Shepard is alive and stays that way.  Yes the breath scene obviously means Shepard's alive.  But at the same time SHepard is shown burnt, broken, alone, and buried in rubble.  Yes, Shepard can be rescued, receive treatment, have a reunion, etc.  But that scene is just too open.  It could just as easily be "five minutes later, SHepard bled out and died alone and in pain"

In every single other ending, Shepard dies and is mourned.  Every.  SIngle.  One.  Yet the one where Shepard is alive, we are shown nothing beyond "Shepard is alive" We don't see Shepard get up and leave.  We don't see Shepard rescued.  Shepard's story ends with Shepard in a pile of debris.  That is not satisfying at all given how ME1 and ME2 ended.

Speculation =/= closure.  Mock me all you want about me "not getting it"  or being "too Western" or whatever.  But I wanted a scene, even a very brief one, that shows Shepard will get to live in the galaxy he helped reshape.

Not can live.  Will live.

[Lord Goose]

If I wanted Shepard dead, I'd just pick another ending. Because all of the others have Shepard definitively dead. But it was too much bother to make a definitively alive one?

Maybe by choosing destroy Shepard simply wanted dead reapers. He isn't aware about breath scene, you know.

But even if we assume, that he wants to live after he had done, where are still many unknown subjects. It would requre all possible "LI reunioun scenes" and may different "squad reunion scenes", dependent on your relationship with them and how much of them have survived.

And the more we go, the more question will he have. Will Shepard settle down with his/her LI, or will continue his job as a Spectre? Will they have children? How these children would look? Will their family be living on Rannoch or on Earth, or ni Thessia/Illium, Citadel, Eden Prime?

And I'm just getting started.

They even said so. Was I not clear?

You were. I'm just trying to explain it.

[Iakus]

Lord Goose wrote...

If I wanted Shepard dead, I'd just pick another ending. Because all of the others have Shepard definitively dead. But it was too much bother to make a definitively alive one?

Maybe by choosing destroy Shepard simply wanted dead reapers. He isn't aware about breath scene, you know.

But even if we assume, that he wants to live after he had done, where are still many unknown subjects. It would requre all possible "LI reunioun scenes" and may different "squad reunion scenes", dependent on your relationship with them and how much of them have survived.

And the more we go, the more question will he have. Will Shepard settle down with his/her LI, or will continue his job as a Spectre? Will they have children? How these children would look? Will their family be living on Rannoch or on Earth, or ni Thessia/Illium, Citadel, Eden Prime?

And I'm just getting started.

And what I'm talking about is a scene that basically confirms Shepard lives long enough for one of those scenes to occur.

Sure having those would be ideal, but I'm aware of limitations.  Even if I do think a five second, voiceless scene of a LI visiting Shep in the hospital would be no end to wonderful.  

 Even so, just Shep resting in hospital would put my mind at ease.

[Zaidra]

Please for the love of all that is sacred and holy, tell that to this thread: http://social.biowar...ndex/12879197/1

[NM_Che56]

I like the scene. You only get it w a high enough EMS, so it should be clear that Shep survives. If they put it in chronological order, then people could think that Shep was taking a last breath.

[NM_Che56]

Oh and DRAWING breath is indicative of resuscitation or coming to. No head canon required.

[Theobuomai]

Ah, Taboo, fellow Miri-mancer XD

I completely agree with the function and effect of the narrative sequence. I think many of us may have experienced it differently if we didn't already know the breath scene was coming, if we had experienced the EC ending afresh.

But I also side with those who feel the insufficiency of the imaginative/implied ending of Shep.

I don't think its a matter of the player's ability to imagine, or fill in guided implications, but rather on the nature and function of imagination -- here, namely its inability to clarify, close, and fulfill, especially at a personal level when it's not my own story. Sure, people are able to do the latter at varying degrees, and that is very apparent all over BSN. The problem, though, is that the player's imagination can't actually fulfill Shepard's story, because it is not my story, it is Bioware's; it is Shepard's. The player is ultimately on the receiving end of the story, of the gift, and therefore cannot give it to herself/himself. That is not to say the player doesn't supply anything, but he/she can't complete it, can't fulfill it, can't close it, because the truth will always remain that the story was never your own from the beginning -- again, it's Bioware's, and we are absorbed into it by our receiving of it (just like any story that isn't by nature our own).

Sure, imagination can speculate, can inwardly create. (Since Miri and Jack didn't get their own "plaque" scene, I still imagine a different scene with Miri having hacked into the Alliance files, seeing Shepard's name listed "MIA," then quickly getting up and walking with a mission, with a camera shot on her face as she sports a commanding smirk that says "Shepard, here I come...") Yet it will never reach the goal line, never give true closure in ME3, but will leave me in this tormenting "limbo" between the fulfilled and unfulfilled. To exist as real, to exist as true and fulfilled, it has to be given to me -- which also says something about the communal nature (and not must my own personal imagination) that the story must also exist within and be given. I think this is precisely why all the fan sketches, drawings, fanfics, models and animations, and comics are such a joy to so many. Yet even in the end, no matter how much I may choose a fan's or my own "imagined" to be the final close for Shep, it will always be second best, always be present with the fact that it is not Bioware's, and therefore will never truly give what it tries to.

Bioware is expecting us to give to ourselves what we cannot give ourselves. The promise can only be fulfilled by the one who made it; the story only closed by the one who told it.

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

Loreshield wrote...

It absolutely BOGGLES my mind how people don't seem to even think about the POSSIBILITY that the narrative sequence and the sequence it "really" all takes place in are not the same.

I mean, the only explanation that constantly creeps into my brain is that people are just not able to process this, or anything beyond a linear string of events, really. But I reject that. It can not be.

It just... Can not. :'(

Alright, I'm fine. Seriously, people, it's OK. This kinda shtick has been done a bajillion times before in storytelling.

Thanks, Taboo, for getting the word out..........

THe problem isn't the sequence, it's that there's a piece missing:  SHepard being found.

This^

Actually, the reason people state that about the chronology of what's shown with Hackett's narrative and the breathing scene is just because they really are rather hurt that every other ending got closure but not the one that is the most hopeful.  It's kind of like what happened at first for the ending.  Since many thought it was bad, it started being easier to pick apart everything else.  Yes, we know logically that the Citadel being rebuilt is more what Hackett sees for the future, but since Shepard was treated like crap by the writers, well it's easier to see that other things don't flow quite as logically visually as they should.  People could overlook minor things if they had felt the devs had met them halfway, but the torso in rubble is a slap in the face to anyone that wanted real closure.  People feel like slapping back.

[toots1221]

3DandBeyond wrote...

iakus wrote...

Loreshield wrote...

It absolutely BOGGLES my mind how people don't seem to even think about the POSSIBILITY that the narrative sequence and the sequence it "really" all takes place in are not the same.

I mean, the only explanation that constantly creeps into my brain is that people are just not able to process this, or anything beyond a linear string of events, really. But I reject that. It can not be.

It just... Can not. :'(

Alright, I'm fine. Seriously, people, it's OK. This kinda shtick has been done a bajillion times before in storytelling.

Thanks, Taboo, for getting the word out..........

THe problem isn't the sequence, it's that there's a piece missing:  SHepard being found.

This^

Actually, the reason people state that about the chronology of what's shown with Hackett's narrative and the breathing scene is just because they really are rather hurt that every other ending got closure but not the one that is the most hopeful.  It's kind of like what happened at first for the ending.  Since many thought it was bad, it started being easier to pick apart everything else.  Yes, we know logically that the Citadel being rebuilt is more what Hackett sees for the future, but since Shepard was treated like crap by the writers, well it's easier to see that other things don't flow quite as logically visually as they should.  People could overlook minor things if they had felt the devs had met them halfway, but the torso in rubble is a slap in the face to anyone that wanted real closure.  People feel like slapping back.

Yeah that how I felt. I honestly wondered if I was being punished for not choosing synthesis. Would it really have killed them to give those of us who picked destroy a little closure?

[Taboo]

Bioware telling you that he/she is alive and that a reunion can take place is not enough?

Can we not do this in our heads?

Have we forgotten how to participate in art?

[3DandBeyond]

Theobuomai wrote...

Ah, Taboo, fellow Miri-mancer XD

I completely agree with the function and effect of the narrative sequence. I think many of us may have experienced it differently if we didn't already know the breath scene was coming, if we had experienced the EC ending afresh.

But I also side with those who feel the insufficiency of the imaginative/implied ending of Shep.

I don't think its a matter of the player's ability to imagine, or fill in guided implications, but rather on the nature and function of imagination -- here, namely its inability to clarify, close, and fulfill, especially at a personal level when it's not my own story. Sure, people are able to do the latter at varying degrees, and that is very apparent all over BSN. The problem, though, is that the player's imagination can't actually fulfill Shepard's story, because it is not my story, it is Bioware's; it is Shepard's. The player is ultimately on the receiving end of the story, of the gift, and therefore cannot give it to herself/himself. That is not to say the player doesn't supply anything, but he/she can't complete it, can't fulfill it, can't close it, because the truth will always remain that the story was never your own from the beginning -- again, it's Bioware's, and we are absorbed into it by our receiving of it (just like any story that isn't by nature our own).

Sure, imagination can speculate, can inwardly create. (Since Miri and Jack didn't get their own "plaque" scene, I still imagine a different scene with Miri having hacked into the Alliance files, seeing Shepard's name listed "MIA," then quickly getting up and walking with a mission, with a camera shot on her face as she sports a commanding smirk that says "Shepard, here I come...") Yet it will never reach the goal line, never give true closure in ME3, but will leave me in this tormenting "limbo" between the fulfilled and unfulfilled. To exist as real, to exist as true and fulfilled, it has to be given to me -- which also says something about the communal nature (and not must my own personal imagination) that the story must also exist within and be given. I think this is precisely why all the fan sketches, drawings, fanfics, models and animations, and comics are such a joy to so many. Yet even in the end, no matter how much I may choose a fan's or my own "imagined" to be the final close for Shep, it will always be second best, always be present with the fact that it is not Bioware's, and therefore will never truly give what it tries to.

Bioware is expecting us to give to ourselves what we cannot give ourselves. The promise can only be fulfilled by the one who made it; the story only closed by the one who told it.

Really well put.  It's the feeling I get when looking at youtube videos that show Shepard doing something.  That's not my Shepard so it feels off.

I wanted, no needed to see an ending to get that closure.

I'm going to get very serious here, but I don't want anyone to pity me, it is not my intent.  But, my sister died many years ago and I lost my father years before that.  I've also had other relatives pass on.  I did not see my sister dead.  For the longest time I could not get past it-in my dreams my sister was alive and I had to find her.  She is the only one I had this experience with.

While this game is less dramatic for me, it is similar in that my Shepard is stuck right before the conduit saying goodbye again to Liara.  I can imagine they meet again in the med lab and then the game fades out, but I wanted and needed to see it in order for it to be real.  As it is now the game stops right there, stuck in a moment.  It was supposed to be fun-the game stopped being fun in a lot of ways and to top it off, the devs clearly said they don't want us to see a happy ending.  Nice thing to do to people that only wanted something good.  Nice thing to do to the hero of 3 games.