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[dirty console peasant]

 So I was just browsing the codex in game and happened across a particular codex entry
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities



So conventional victory is possible with a high enough EMS,  also many ships are now equipped with a Thanix Cannon
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_Vehicles#Mass_Effect_3_2

It also stands to reason that since the Turians reverse engineered them, they would also have thanix cannons on their ships
Edit: I found these war assets as well
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Crucible#Interferometric_Array
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Alien#Volus_Dreadnought_Kwunu

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Salarian#Salarian_Third_Fleet
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Alliance#Alliance_First_Fleet
Edit: just found this while playing the game
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Quarian#Quarian_Civilian_Fleet
for the alliance one read the part about the SSV Leipzig
Edit: so since Omega, we now officially have guns that are stronger than those of the reapers pawns (read collectors) seeing as the defensive guns on Omega cut through the same type of armor that the Collector Cruiser could not during the SM.

Please Bioware, give us a high EMS refuse ending where we take control of the fleets and lead them to victory, WITH LOSSES
this is my Idea on how it would play out

non-starchild Victory
Yes it was stressed repeatedly during the game that Victory was impossible without using the crucible, HOWEVER didn't Shepard build a career on doing the impossible.  Shepard got to illos when is was supposedly impossible, Shepard even returned from the Omega-4 relay, possibly without any losses even ON A SUICIDE MISSION.  Therefore I believe that there should be a DLC that enables Shepard to win without giving in to the terrorist kid, maybe by giving mid game missions that increase Galaxy at war points to where it is possible to get 8000 EMS, and at 8000 EMS the refuse option can be played like the SM and you direct the forces allied against the Reapers to victory.  The better you play the less losses you take; but unlike the SM it is impossible to keep everyone alive.
Edit: this could be a post cerberus base choice

• the crucible is too unknown and the earth system is too reinforced, therefore we should strike where the reapers are weaker and wear them down (High EMS required for this ending to work)
• believe what Admiral Hackett tells you and use the Crucible (Endings Play out the same way)

Edit 2: I was thinking about it and it ocurred to me that the decision should take place earlier, say in the meeting with the council.  It could be something like this "We just found this blueprint for something, we don't know what it is, or how it works, we think it will kill the reapers.  We also have these cannons that we scavenged from Soverign that can be equipped on any ship we have.  Commander Shepard you are the expert on Reapers, what do you think we should do?"  The War assets related to the crucible would then be changed to war assets assisting in the upgrading of as many ships as possible.  The most change would be in the endgame, there would still be a ground battle on earth, but the objective would change.  Also there would be choices similar to the SM where the consequences for too low of an EMS or the wrong decisions would result in the death of squadmates and/or fleets.

Edit: In this ending each of your squadmates and previous squadmates would be in danger

• Jack would be with ascension kids
• Miranda would be with her strike team
• Grunt would be with the Krogan Horde
• Tali would be on the Migrant fleet (She is an admiral after all)
• Garrus would be with his strike team
• Liara would be commanding the Shadow Broker strike team
• The Virmire survivor would be with the Spectre team
• Zaeed would retake control of the Blue Suns and command them
• Samara would be on a team of Justicars
• Not sure about Jacob
• Wrex might also be part of the Krogan Horde
• Not sure about Kasumi
• Not sure about Javik
• James would be part of an N7 Strike team
• The Normandy is an asset so Edi would be part of that
• Steeeeeeve would be part of the fighter wing that he helped convince to assist in the war effort

It should be set up such that multiple fleets would each be able to do the job alone, however there are too many jobs for too few fleets capable of performing the tasks and therfore you would only be able to keep some of your squad and fleets alive, not all of them.
This I would be willing to pay for (maybe $5-$10) as I do not consider it a prerequisite for a good ending, and there would be extra mid game playable content.Edit: In this ending which would take some time, Shepard would be commanding the fleets, as he/she is no longer needed to create alliances.
note: I copied part of this OP this from another thread that I posted previously
here is the link to the whole thread
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12843296

Modifié par Shepard Cmdr, 28 novembre 2012 - 02:26 .

[SNascimento]

No, it's not.

[dirty console peasant]

SNascimento wrote...

No, it's not.

did you read the codex entry that I linked to?

[jijeebo]

Theoretically we can kill reapers.

Doesn't mean we can survive long enough to kill thousands of them in aerial combat, as well as countless ground troops.


If conventional victory was an option the galaxy wouldn't put everything it had into defending the Crucible to make sure it docks safely.

[Rex Fallout]

SNascimento wrote...

No, it's not.

Seriously read the codex entry... 

[dirty console peasant]

jijeebo wrote...

Theoretically we can kill reapers.

Doesn't mean we can survive long enough to kill thousands of them in aerial combat, as well as countless ground troops.


If conventional victory was an option the galaxy wouldn't put everything it had into defending the Crucible to make sure it docks safely.

 
Theoretically conventional victory is possible, maybe with 8000 EMS (a number currently impossible without new DLC)

[Slayer299]

It's not possible because Casey said so.

I do like several of your ideas on how the Earth assault should have progressed, so that we get consequences for doing/not doing things in ME3, but I'd also add decisions made in 1 & 2 so your game didn't require the end-game choices we had.

[Sajuro]

we're all going to die! By Saphra Deden

[SNascimento]

Rex Fallout wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

No, it's not.

Seriously read the codex entry... 

.
I did way back when I played ME3 for the first time... all  it says is that the reapers can be destroyed. Which is nothing knew. 
.
You can win battles, but the war? Not a chance. 

[Grogimus]

Although theoretically possible, a conventional victory isn't something I need...or even want. Besides my own feelings....when you say theoretical, I see that as a nearly impossible task that would take decades to achieve. Not simply another suicide mission(not that you're asking for that OP).

[saracen16]

What emotional chest-pounding. The monkey may try to make itself look frightening, but that's not going to stop predators from eating it. I also read these Codex entries:

"The Reapers are technologically superior to the organic species of the galaxy -- but the degree of that superiority is a matter of debate in the intelligence community.
The Reapers' thrusters and FTL drives appear to propel them at more than twice the speed of Citadel ships. Estimates of their location in dark space suggest they can travel nearly 30 light-years in a 24-hour period.

Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws. Reapers usually destroy fuel infrastructure rather than attempting to capture it intact, indicating that Reapers do not require organic species' energy supplies. Consequently, the Reapers attack without regard for maintaining supply lines behind them, except to move husks from one planet to another. Unlike Citadel ships, Reapers do not appear to discharge static buildup from their drive cores, although they sometimes appear wreathed in static discharge when they land on planets.

The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers.

The kinetic barriers on a Reaper capital ship can shrug off the firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters."

Don't forget the storyline: a single Reaper can wipe out 4 turian companies in less than an hour. The devastation they laid upon Palaven and Menae is unbearable. They've already laid waste to Dekuuna and Irune. They've also controlled MANY sectors irrevocably on the galaxy map, and even some sectors such as Sentry Omega are not even close to accessible (mentioned in the news overheard on the Citadel). Thessia fell as a result of failed guerilla tactics. Which brings me to these:

"The assault on Thessia did not go as smoothly as the Reapers' strikes against other races. While other species met the Reapers head-on, the asari resorted to dangerous hit-and-run tactics to harass their attackers. By engaging in guerilla strategies--blast a Reaper ship, then jumping to FTL where they could not be tracked--the asari forced the Reapers to remain on the defensive.
Unfortunately, the Reapers' greater numbers allowed them to accept certain losses, so they soon ignored the attacks against them and began orbital bombardment of Thessia. This in turn forced the asari to defend their homeworld with a more traditional stance, facing the Reaper forces directly. As soon as the Reapers landed on Thessia, the harvesting began.

A swift and brutal slaughter of the asari ground forces followed. Resistance from trained biotics barely slowly the attackers down. In the end, Thessia's minimal military forces, combined with unpreparedness in the face of an overwhelming enemy, resulted in the fall of the planet."

"The Reapers' first attack on turian space followed an age-old maxim: hit them where it hurts. A populous colony dating back centuries, Taetrus was already embedded in the turian psyche as the site of the worst terrorist attack in turian history. Wounds were still raw from the Vallum Blast, in which a separatist revolutionary slammed a starship into the colony's capital, killing more than a hundred thousand turians. Hierarchy forces responded with a massive invasion of the planet to stamp out the separatist movement. It was a catharsis for the turians, reassuring them that heroes would always triumph over evil. And so the Reapers struck Taetrus first.
By the time Taetrus went dark, the turians had already learned that the batarians and humans were under attack. The Hierarchy responded with what they believed was overwhelming force, only to walk into a trap. Reaper ships were waiting on the other side of the relay to Taetrus, and they released devastating firepower the moment the fleet emerged. Turian leaders observing the one-sided battle were faced with a choice: reinforce their side of the relay to defend against a Reaper invasion, or throw more resources into an offense. With soldiers and civilians alike clamoring for retribution against the Reapers, the turians continued the assault. The Hierarchy sent warp bombs through the relay to clear a path, fighting tooth and talon to inflict casualties against the Reaper fleet. It was a valiant effort, but doomed. The Reapers emerged victorious from the relay and began broadcasting a signal to turian comm buoys-- images of Vallum, Taetrus's capital, once again a smoking wreck. The fight for turian space had begun."

The organic civilizations are fighting a losing battle by the end of the game before Priority - Earth. Don't forget the codex entry about allied dreadnoughts: all number less than 100. The Reapers vastly exceed this number, having been created for countless cycles before.

So, no, conventional victory is IMPOSSIBLE.

[Sajuro]

Four Dreadnaughts can kill a reaper if they all fire on it, there are at least thousands of reapers, most could be destroyers but do you think sentient species could invest four dreadnaughts for each Reaper Capital ship considering that at least one of the dreadnaughts would probably be destroyed and under less than ideal conditions (IE, not more than one Reaper ship and bringing cruisers and fighters to run interference for the Dreadnaughts)

[saracen16]

Grogimus wrote...

Although theoretically possible, a conventional victory isn't something I need...or even want. Besides my own feelings....when you say theoretical, I see that as a nearly impossible task that would take decades to achieve. Not simply another suicide mission(not that you're asking for that OP).

Don't forget the Reapers can also move through mass relays. They can sneak attack and destroy our supply lines. We'll lose the war faster than you can say "reapers gonna reap".

[ashwind]

You are right - a battle can be won.

Unfortunately - a battle is not a war. War is a long process and not all battles are fought with guns and explosions. Logistics, intel, tactics, experience, moral, technology etc are all taken into account.

Heckett put it best - they will bleed us slowly.

[Firesaber82]

saracen16 wrote...

What emotional chest-pounding. The monkey may try to make itself look frightening, but that's not going to stop predators from eating it. I also read these Codex entries:

"The Reapers are technologically superior to the organic species of the galaxy -- but the degree of that superiority is a matter of debate in the intelligence community.
The Reapers' thrusters and FTL drives appear to propel them at more than twice the speed of Citadel ships. Estimates of their location in dark space suggest they can travel nearly 30 light-years in a 24-hour period.

Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws. Reapers usually destroy fuel infrastructure rather than attempting to capture it intact, indicating that Reapers do not require organic species' energy supplies. Consequently, the Reapers attack without regard for maintaining supply lines behind them, except to move husks from one planet to another. Unlike Citadel ships, Reapers do not appear to discharge static buildup from their drive cores, although they sometimes appear wreathed in static discharge when they land on planets.

The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers.

The kinetic barriers on a Reaper capital ship can shrug off the firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters."

Don't forget the storyline: a single Reaper can wipe out 4 turian companies in less than an hour. The devastation they laid upon Palaven and Menae is unbearable. They've already laid waste to Dekuuna and Irune. They've also controlled MANY sectors irrevocably on the galaxy map, and even some sectors such as Sentry Omega are not even close to accessible (mentioned in the news overheard on the Citadel). Thessia fell as a result of failed guerilla tactics. Which brings me to these:

"The assault on Thessia did not go as smoothly as the Reapers' strikes against other races. While other species met the Reapers head-on, the asari resorted to dangerous hit-and-run tactics to harass their attackers. By engaging in guerilla strategies--blast a Reaper ship, then jumping to FTL where they could not be tracked--the asari forced the Reapers to remain on the defensive.
Unfortunately, the Reapers' greater numbers allowed them to accept certain losses, so they soon ignored the attacks against them and began orbital bombardment of Thessia. This in turn forced the asari to defend their homeworld with a more traditional stance, facing the Reaper forces directly. As soon as the Reapers landed on Thessia, the harvesting began.

A swift and brutal slaughter of the asari ground forces followed. Resistance from trained biotics barely slowly the attackers down. In the end, Thessia's minimal military forces, combined with unpreparedness in the face of an overwhelming enemy, resulted in the fall of the planet."

"The Reapers' first attack on turian space followed an age-old maxim: hit them where it hurts. A populous colony dating back centuries, Taetrus was already embedded in the turian psyche as the site of the worst terrorist attack in turian history. Wounds were still raw from the Vallum Blast, in which a separatist revolutionary slammed a starship into the colony's capital, killing more than a hundred thousand turians. Hierarchy forces responded with a massive invasion of the planet to stamp out the separatist movement. It was a catharsis for the turians, reassuring them that heroes would always triumph over evil. And so the Reapers struck Taetrus first.
By the time Taetrus went dark, the turians had already learned that the batarians and humans were under attack. The Hierarchy responded with what they believed was overwhelming force, only to walk into a trap. Reaper ships were waiting on the other side of the relay to Taetrus, and they released devastating firepower the moment the fleet emerged. Turian leaders observing the one-sided battle were faced with a choice: reinforce their side of the relay to defend against a Reaper invasion, or throw more resources into an offense. With soldiers and civilians alike clamoring for retribution against the Reapers, the turians continued the assault. The Hierarchy sent warp bombs through the relay to clear a path, fighting tooth and talon to inflict casualties against the Reaper fleet. It was a valiant effort, but doomed. The Reapers emerged victorious from the relay and began broadcasting a signal to turian comm buoys-- images of Vallum, Taetrus's capital, once again a smoking wreck. The fight for turian space had begun."

The organic civilizations are fighting a losing battle by the end of the game before Priority - Earth. Don't forget the codex entry about allied dreadnoughts: all number less than 100. The Reapers vastly exceed this number, having been created for countless cycles before.

So, no, conventional victory is IMPOSSIBLE.

Wow, well put together.

[saracen16]

ashwind wrote...

You are right - a battle can be won.

Unfortunately - a battle is not a war. War is a long process and not all battles are fought with guns and explosions. Logistics, intel, tactics, experience, moral, technology etc are all taken into account.

Heckett put it best - they will bleed us slowly.

Absolutely. Don't forget that Hackett is one of the most experienced generals in the Alliance Military, having fought conventional battles against the turians in the First Contact War. If anyone knows when a conventional victory is possible and when it isn't, it's Hackett.

[Grogimus]

saracen16 wrote...

Grogimus wrote...

Although theoretically possible, a conventional victory isn't something I need...or even want. Besides my own feelings....when you say theoretical, I see that as a nearly impossible task that would take decades to achieve. Not simply another suicide mission(not that you're asking for that OP).

Don't forget the Reapers can also move through mass relays. They can sneak attack and destroy our supply lines. We'll lose the war faster than you can say "reapers gonna reap".

Honestly, that's why I said nearly impossible......We are not any farther advanced technologically than the Protheans in the current Mass Effect world.

[dreman9999]

  This is the 
Oculus[/b] 
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 


This make any assumtion of conventional victory bunk.
Why?
Because the reapers can make an endless ammount of them and they can dive into our strongest ships and destroy them form the inside out.
The reapers have been using this and much of there husk forces to wipe the floor with us.
Get it that unlimited forces will alway trump limited forces.

[dreman9999]

Grogimus wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Grogimus wrote...

Although theoretically possible, a conventional victory isn't something I need...or even want. Besides my own feelings....when you say theoretical, I see that as a nearly impossible task that would take decades to achieve. Not simply another suicide mission(not that you're asking for that OP).

Don't forget the Reapers can also move through mass relays. They can sneak attack and destroy our supply lines. We'll lose the war faster than you can say "reapers gonna reap".

Honestly, that's why I said nearly impossible......We are not any farther advanced technologically than the Protheans in the current Mass Effect world.

Look at a gun of a prothean and say that.

[Grogimus]

Just want to point out....one of the reasons the Protheans were defeated was because a key portion of them were indoctrinated.....

[saracen16]

Grogimus wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Grogimus wrote...

Although theoretically possible, a conventional victory isn't something I need...or even want. Besides my own feelings....when you say theoretical, I see that as a nearly impossible task that would take decades to achieve. Not simply another suicide mission(not that you're asking for that OP).

Don't forget the Reapers can also move through mass relays. They can sneak attack and destroy our supply lines. We'll lose the war faster than you can say "reapers gonna reap".

Honestly, that's why I said nearly impossible......We are not any farther advanced technologically than the Protheans in the current Mass Effect world.

Indeed. In fact, by using mass relay tech, all advanced civilizations develop along a predictable path that the Reapers desire. It's also a predictable path. That makes reaping so much more predictable... and easier.

[ArchDuck]

Slayer299 wrote...

It's not possible because Casey said so.

And that is the only reason.

[Kalas Magnus]

Read it. While conventional victory may be possible the reapers real weapon is indoctrination. When you realize it has happened it is already too late and having been under the effects for so long, you dont know if your actions were your own. This is why I thought sheppard would turn out to be a double agent after the arrival dlc. He had been so close to that artifact for so long it was logical to believe he was already under their spell. Sure the many armies could destroy a few dreadnoughts like the derelict reaper but all it takes is one indoctrinated agent to sabotage their efforts. This is why the protheans ended up losing their war 50,000 years ago.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

dreman9999 wrote...

  This is the 
Oculus[/b] 
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 


This make any assumtion of conventional victory bunk.
Why?
Because the reapers can make an endless ammount of them and they can dive into our strongest ships and destroy them form the inside out.
The reapers have been using this and much of there husk forces to wipe the floor with us.
Get it that unlimited forces will alway trump limited forces.

And I stopped a swarm of them with literally no casualties.

[Grogimus]

dreman9999 wrote...

Grogimus wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Grogimus wrote...

Although theoretically possible, a conventional victory isn't something I need...or even want. Besides my own feelings....when you say theoretical, I see that as a nearly impossible task that would take decades to achieve. Not simply another suicide mission(not that you're asking for that OP).

Don't forget the Reapers can also move through mass relays. They can sneak attack and destroy our supply lines. We'll lose the war faster than you can say "reapers gonna reap".

Honestly, that's why I said nearly impossible......We are not any farther advanced technologically than the Protheans in the current Mass Effect world.

Look at a gun of a prothean and say that.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're alluding to, I'm sorry.  Could you ellaborate please?  Knowledge is my only goal...