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non-starchild victory is possible...data given in game (edited for Omega)


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#251
J.Random

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RiouHotaru wrote...
The galaxy would never have invested in the Crucible so heavily if that was the case.


The galaxy invested too little in the Crucible, actually. What was it? A lot of technicians (in a modern world we have a lot of those, in ME universe there's even more), a lot of resources (actually, not THAT much, that's just because Crucible is an effing big structure). And a couple of science teams, in which only prothean experts are useful, and everyone else are coffee-couriers for prothean experts. Once the blueprints are decoded, everyone becomes a technician. Engineer. They have blueprints, they don't need actual real scientists there.

#252
TK514

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The plot of the game itself all but forces a thinking player to assume Hackett is wrong in his assessment of a conventional victory being impossible.  Otherwise, there's no point to assembling a coalition of the Galaxy's races to take back Earth or anywhere else.

Logically, the galaxy would never have invested in the Crucible at all given how it is presented.  If they really thought conventional victory was impossible, they'd have been putting those resources into survival and information preservation scenarios like the self-contained Ilos installations and beacons, building off the lessons learned from the Protheans.

I mean, seriously, there's absolutely no way anyone in their right mind would ever approve the Crucible project as shown to us.

Hackett:  "What is it?"
Liara: "We think it's a weapon."

H: "What does it do?"
L:  "We don't know."

H:  "Ok, assuming it's a weapon that won't kill us all, how do we use it?"
L:   "We can't.  Even if you pool the galaxy's resources together and build it, it still needs the Catalyst to make it work."

H:  "What is the Catalyst?"
L:  "We don't know."

H:  "Where is the Catalyst?"
L:  "We don't know."

H:  "Does the Catalyst even still exist?"
L:  "We don't know."

H:  "How are we going to find out if the Catalyst still exists, where it is, and how to use it with the Crucible?"
L:  "We don't know."

H:  "So, we have a theoretical device that might be a weapon, but we don't actually know what it does.  It requires a key that we currently also have no way of knowing what it is, what it does, where it is, or even if it exists.  And we are supposed to pull immeasurable resources and manpower away from critical wartime and survival operations on the infinitessimal chance that someone will discover what and where the key is, recover it in time, and hope that this whole thing does what we want it to?  Thank you for your time, Dr. T'Soni.  I'm late for a briefing on how many more Thanix cannons we can fit on a dreadnought.  There's a meeting in half an hour discussing reverse engineering the Prothean statis pods and I'd appreciate it if you could attend.  If you come up with any useful techologies from the Mars archive plans, let us know."

If conventional victory is impossible, there's really no point to the entire main plot of the game.  Even if they decide the insanely long-shot Crucible is worth persuing, Shep still wouldn't need to convince the other races to send troops to liberate anywhere.  They could keep their troops and warships right where they are, dying in droves and tying up Reaper forces.  All Shep would have to do would be convince the other races to send scientists, civilians and non-combat resources to the Crucible construction site.  The entire genophage section of the game is particularly meaningless if a conventional victory is impossible.  Heck, the Impossible Conventional Victory scenario makes Shep's job easy by comparison. 

Shepard:  "We're not asking you do pull troops away from the defense of their homes.  We want them to keep on doing what they're doing, and getting as many civilians and resources out as possible.  All we want to do is give those evacuees a secure place to go and a purpose, so they can do their part to maybe win this war.  And if they can't win, being off a planet and in a secret interstellar location will give them the best chance to evade the Reapers and find a way to survive."

At that point, recruiting the Quarians goes from a touching little "Oh yeah, the Quarians, I guess we could use those guys, and maybe the Geth" side mission to "Forget the Turians and the Krogan.  Priority one is to recruit the mechanics and engineers who have been jury rigging spaceships and living completely in space for the last 300 years, and the super hive-mind hazardous duty robots they created, right now".

Even once the Catalyst is discovered and the need to retake the Citadel is identified, a combined fleet/army assault on the Citadel/beam is pretty much the single worst thing they could have done.  "Hi, guys.  We're throwing a huge fleet into the space you've coincidentally stashed the Citadel, and the entire ground force we've managed to scrounge up is headed directly at the only method of entering said Citadel.  Don't mind us.  And certainly don't send overwhelming force to protect that beam."  The Normandy with Shep's squad and a couple of independent backup squads could have covertly landed on planet and infiltrated their way to the beam without drawing the attention of anyone except Marauder Shields and his husks, who happened to be on "Death by Shepard" duty that day.  At that point Shep and his team either figure out how to move the Citadel to the Crucible, or signal the Alliance fleets to bring the Crucible in and protect it for the 10 minutes it takes to dock, since apparently the Reapers won't shoot at it is long as there is a single Alliance ship still in space for them to engage in hand to hand combat with.

Oh well.  It's safe to say my suspension of disbelief is now stretched to the breaking point relatively early in the narrative.

Modifié par TK514, 03 juillet 2012 - 07:49 .


#253
Grub Killer8016

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SNascimento wrote...

No, it's not.


READ IT LOL! :P

I believe in this. Nothing is invincible. Seeing the Human Reaper, Sovereign, the Destroyer on Rannoch, and the AA Reaper on Earth get destroyed proves this.

#254
dirty console peasant

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bump because I edited the OP (new link and new method for choosing between whether you want to try for conventional victory or just trust in the crucible)

#255
D24O

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Is it too late for a Gooby pls? We can't win. We can put a dent into their numbers, but we didn't prepare enough and that sunk us.

#256
dirty console peasant

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D24O wrote...

Is it too late for a Gooby pls? We can't win. We can put a dent into their numbers, but we didn't prepare enough and that sunk us.

I personally have approx. 8000 EMS every time I go back to Earth. If 3100 can hold the reapers at bay for long enough to get the crucible in place, we should be able to wipe out a smaller force (maybe the force holding Thessia or Palaven) with an extra 4900. Side note, this way we could actually go to palaven like they told us pre-release.  Also read the pages that I linked to.  
Edit: maybe the Leviathan DLC will help with this

Modifié par Shepard Cmdr, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:14 .


#257
BDelacroix

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Slayer299 wrote...

It's not possible because Casey said so.


This is precicely the only reason it isn't possible.

#258
Applepie_Svk

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Problem why is convetional victory still possibile is the behavior of Reapers, which maybe assaulted few worlds but that´s all, most of their forces are scattered around galaxy and even in final battle over Earth they are able to gather few hundreds maybe thousands ship to deffend their most important project - even more with knolendge of Shepard´s plans. If they realy were so numerous than why is their advance so passive ? ....

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:35 .


#259
sth128

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Conventional victory not possible while Artistic Integrity remains intact.

We need to build a giant device of unquantifiable power with unknown purpose and dock it to Bioware headquarters in order to defeat Artistic Integrity and enable the conventional victory option. But before that, we need to gather 12 people from around the world, clear up any emotional, personal, parental, and even genetic issues they may have, then go on a suicide mission to stop a train.

After that, we have to spend six months in jail, wait for a natural disaster to occur, then escape and genetically modify the AIDS virus to do its opposite job. We may also be required to somehow negotiate peace between Yankee and Red Sox fans (or annihilate one team completely at random), infiltrate North Korea, attempt to steal the next iPhone plans from Apple (but fail), hook up with a really hot cosplay girl, then finally arrive at Bioware headquarters which has now been moved by magic to China.

Then we must defeat 100 Chinese Diablo 3 players in gold farming.

#260
dirty console peasant

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sth128 wrote...

Conventional victory not possible while Artistic Integrity remains intact.

We need to build a giant device of unquantifiable power with unknown purpose and dock it to Bioware headquarters in order to defeat Artistic Integrity and enable the conventional victory option. But before that, we need to gather 12 people from around the world, clear up any emotional, personal, parental, and even genetic issues they may have, then go on a suicide mission to stop a train.

After that, we have to spend six months in jail, wait for a natural disaster to occur, then escape and genetically modify the AIDS virus to do its opposite job. We may also be required to somehow negotiate peace between Yankee and Red Sox fans (or annihilate one team completely at random), infiltrate North Korea, attempt to steal the next iPhone plans from Apple (but fail), hook up with a really hot cosplay girl, then finally arrive at Bioware headquarters which has now been moved by magic to China.

Then we must defeat 100 Chinese Diablo 3 players in gold farming.

lol, sad but true.
Bioware does not have artistic integrity, as their work is commissioned by the rEApers.

#261
SpiderFan1217

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Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

No, it's not.

did you read the codex entry that I linked to?


There is no need. It is stated in-game, on several accasions, that conventional victory is not possible.

#262
dirty console peasant

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SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

No, it's not.

did you read the codex entry that I linked to?


There is no need. It is stated in-game, on several accasions, that conventional victory is not possible.

  • the codex is in game
  • shepard has built a career on doing the impossible, the more I am told that is impossible, the more I think that it actually is.


#263
SpiderFan1217

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Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

No, it's not.

did you read the codex entry that I linked to?


There is no need. It is stated in-game, on several accasions, that conventional victory is not possible.

  • the codex is in game
  • shepard has built a career on doing the impossible, the more I am told that is impossible, the more I think that it actually is.


Well you let me know the day you beat the Reapers conventionally. I really will be happy for you.

#264
Ageless Face

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The movie Grease disagrees with you

And you know nostalgia is always right.

#265
macrocarl

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While it's plausible that a conventional victory against the Reapers on Earth would be possible fighting a bazillion Reapers wouldn't work in the end. Think about Husks for instance, they tkae your allies and turn them into enemies real quick. Also, in the air Harby and friends out number the big guns the galaxy has over all. They start out with more powerful tech and either decimate our forces or turn them. Doesn't seem likely even for Shepard.

#266
macrocarl

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Also I read the codex! I love reading codex entries. I know, I'm a nerd. :P

#267
CrimsonHooj

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Reaper sovereign class ships outnumber citadel capital ships at least 8-1 or as much as 200-1 (based on codex dates for suspected reaper extinction cycles with 8-1 being the great rift and 200-1 being the Leviathan of dis). Each one of those reapers is capable of destroying a colony or a flotilla of ships including a dreadnought. Also reaper forces require no logistical structure. There are no factories to bomb or supply lines to raid.
So while we can kill reapers we can't win the war.

#268
3DandBeyond

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Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

No, it's not.

did you read the codex entry that I linked to?


I agree with you.  What the devs and writers did was to retcon anything and then simply not allow any type of sensible conventional warfare to be waged.  That means, Hackett and Anderson constantly are having people run or fly headlong into reapers as if yelling and waving their arms and saying, "here I am".

Shepard took down one reaper with 2 missiles in London.  They hit it with the missiles and it was "going down".

But there were also alternate things they could have been working on while even evading the reapers-but no, they sent everybody to Earth to protect the magic MacGuffin rather than coalescing some different plans away from where the reapers are.

The writers just decided to say it's impossible and then show some reapers being beaten, in order to force us to accept the crucible (battery).

This also causes people to shut off their imagination and helps them forget anything that happened before.  The Indoctrination signal was similar to a Quantum Entanglement signal (EDI knows about these).  Reapers do have to communicate somehow to coordinate attacks and so on-try and jam that.  Try and blind them (no I don't mean cover their eyes-I mean find ways to cut off their ability to see the enemy.  They can't see the Normandy-wow it was far better to build the crucible than to just add more stealth ability to other ships.  What use was it getting the Normandy from Cerberus if they weren't going to use any of the tech from it in other ships? 

The geth have reaper code in them-is there a possible way for them to exploit this?  We don't know because no one tried to.  For all we know the geth might have been able to find some back door into the reapers with a reaper off command within it.  We don't know because everybody was working on some unknown project with an unknown purpose from an unknown source.  No one ever considered using and trying to exploit what they really did know-makes so much more sense to go with a complete unknown instead.

#269
macrocarl

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Here's some key tid bits from it:
* 'The attacks by Sovereign against Eden Prime and the Citadel removed any uncertainty about the Reapers' technological superiority.' <- Ruh roh.
* 'Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents.' <- If a conventional war drug on like it would eventually do, more of this would have revealed itself to be sure. BGecause 'Even with all the Reapers' power, harvesting every sapient species in an entire galaxy can take decades or even centuries.'
*The rate of killing is phenomenal. Intelligence estimates suggest there are more than 400 processor ships on Earth, killing approximately 1.86 million humans per day. In combination with battlefield deaths, disease, and famine, this pace will result in the complete depopulation of Earth within a decade. As the husks and indoctrinated slaves build more slaughtering facilities, the kill rate can only increase. <-- If a conventional war was to work it'd have to totally wipe out all the Reapers really fast. That's a tall order.
*Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated. <- And by the end of ME3 the galaxy, at the very least, didn't have the 'right intelligence' out of the theoretical brew that is proposed. RE: The Catalyst.

#270
D24O

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Shepard Cmdr wrote...
I personally have approx. 8000 EMS every time I go back to Earth. If 3100 can hold the reapers at bay for long enough to get the crucible in place, we should be able to wipe out a smaller force (maybe the force holding Thessia or Palaven) with an extra 4900. Side note, this way we could actually go to palaven like they told us pre-release.  Also read the pages that I linked to.  
Edit: maybe the Leviathan DLC will help with this

EMS is just an arbitrary number with little effect on the game other than the last 5 minutes. 

#271
Guest_Flog61_*

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SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

No, it's not.

did you read the codex entry that I linked to?


There is no need. It is stated in-game, on several accasions, that conventional victory is not possible.

  • the codex is in game
  • shepard has built a career on doing the impossible, the more I am told that is impossible, the more I think that it actually is.


Well you let me know the day you beat the Reapers conventionally. I really will be happy for you.


Well you let me know the day you beat the reapers with a gigantic superweapin capable of space magic. I really will be happy for you.

#272
3DandBeyond

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CrimsonHooj wrote...

Reaper sovereign class ships outnumber citadel capital ships at least 8-1 or as much as 200-1 (based on codex dates for suspected reaper extinction cycles with 8-1 being the great rift and 200-1 being the Leviathan of dis). Each one of those reapers is capable of destroying a colony or a flotilla of ships including a dreadnought. Also reaper forces require no logistical structure. There are no factories to bomb or supply lines to raid.
So while we can kill reapers we can't win the war.


The only reason we can't is because no one thought it would be interesting to imagine it as possible.  It is impossible only because they wanted to force the crucible on us.  But it makes no sense that no one would even try.

And one guy hiding in the woods can completely destroy a platoon that over-estimates its abilities, under-estimates its foes, relies on non-adaptive behaviour-is basically following a formal plan that they have always followed, especially when fighting for his home.

It is also a fact that just as killing one geth seems to weaken all geth, killing one ore two reapers may have a cumulative effect.  But we will never know because we needed to believe in stupid-a nonsensical MacGuffin that no rational person would ever go for unless it was a truly last ditch effort.  In the beginning of ME3 no one knew how many reapers there were (how could they?), no one really knew they were impossible to beat (yes Sovereign was difficult, but he was beaten with losses and for all they knew he could have been the toughest one around-they didn't know).  Even Shepard didn't know.  Yeah, it's a given they are powerful, but we have access to codices with info that is meta-gaming.  I wouldn't use the OP's info nor anything about reaper numbers as a reason to do anything at the beginning of ME3.  I would use the sight of reapers attacking Earth as proof that they need to figure out how to fight them or if they could fight them other than running straight at them.  But no way would everyone just run off to make the crucible without knowing it was worth it or without thinking they had no other choice.

#273
Dariansarr

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The point is that their weaknesses could not be exploited in an head on attack, for example the Miracle at Palaven tells us that by lining up dreadnoughts so that the Reapers have to turn is an excellent strategy but it doesn't work when the enemy outnumbers you at least 3-1 in capital ships, the SSV Kilimanjaro could maybe take out 2 capital ships with this tactic but it cant take on the 6 that follow. Which results in the destruction of an precious dreadnought.

A guirrila war wouldn't work because the Reapers have all the time in the world combined with enormous firepower. They don't have Harbinger on an 8 year term and a replacement that says he's going to end the war. 

In the end you simply don't have enough ships or manpower for an conventional war, if you look at the end scenes of Priority : Earth you can see that at the very end their are only about 10-15 Reaper ships in orbit with another 5-10 in London. Wich means Sword and Shield came close, but not close enough.

Throw in another Destiny Ascenscion and about 10 Kilimanjaro class dreadnought and you got yourself an conventional victory.

PS: Sorry if there where any spelling mistakes, English isn't the main language here xD

Modifié par Dariansarr, 13 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .


#274
spiriticon

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Shepard Cmdr wrote...

  • shepard has built a career on doing the impossible, the more I am told that is impossible, the more I think that it actually is.


Shepard isn't fighting the war alone. If you had a galaxy full of Shepard clones in Normandies fighting the war I'd totally agree with you.

#275
jules_vern18

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Refuse ending should allow Shep to order the fleets to kill the leader of the Reapers (catalyst) by destroying the citadel with him on it. Good dramatic sacrifice, allows the fleets to win conventionally against a leaderless/disorganized force. Also negates any arguments that we have been told "time and time again" that conventional victory was impossible because those statements were made by characters that didn't know the Reapers had a central leader, much less one that could be destroyed.