541 réponses à ce sujet

[Kamfrenchie]

spiriticon wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

• shepard has built a career on doing the impossible, the more I am told that is impossible, the more I think that it actually is.

Shepard isn't fighting the war alone. If you had a galaxy full of Shepard clones in Normandies fighting the war I'd totally agree with you.

shepard is pretty much figting the war alone, most other people seems incompetent. No tctic, just run straight at the reapers and don't focus fire.

Also, everyone needs to stop saying the reapers at earth outnumber our fleet. It's wrong. Our fleet is bigger,otherwise the crucible would never make it o the citadel given how powerful one raper is.

[spiriticon]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

shepard is pretty much figting the war alone, most other people seems incompetent. No tctic, just run straight at the reapers and don't focus fire.

All the more reason a conventional victory isn't possible? Incompetent allies that simply aren't as good as Shepard?

'Richard L Jenkins' syndrome.

[WackemBrakem]

What if we took all the the Multi Player characters and put them into single player that would demolish the enemy forces quickly. Then well hook up all the ships with medi gel so if a player can't run over and Rez it the ship will just use the medi gel also arm every one with glitched striker assault rifles..! Tell us conventional victory isn't possible now.

[Itkovian]

The Codex does not state at all that a conventional victory over the Reapers is possible.

All it states is that the Reaper capital ships are not invulnerable. They have weaknesses that could be exploited to destroy them.

But it also states that they are still vastly superior to anything the Citadel races have, and we know for a fact they vastly outnumber our fleets.

All this implies is that it may be possible to win some battles. It certainly does NOT imply that the war could be won. The overwhelming superiority of the Reapers is clearly demonstrated through numerous codex entries and in the game itself.

There is a world of difference between a foe having some vulnerabilities and being able to defeat that foe in a war.

Heck, if we use that logic, let's reverse the point of view: The Reapers don't even need to exploit vulnerabilities to be able to defeat the Citadel fleet. The codex clearly states that no dreadnaught can survive a hit from a Reaper main gun.

Like it or not, it makes it very clear that the Reapers have an overwhelming advantage.

And, as to the argument that Shepard has a habit of making the impossible happen: that's precisely what he did. He managed to find a way to defeat the Reapers despite their overwhelming superiority, by managing to get the ressources and manpower and support needed to get the Crucible built, by stopping Cerberus, and by actually enabling the activation of the Crucible.

THAT is the impossible task he accomplished.

Thank you.

Itkovian

Modifié par Itkovian, 13 juillet 2012 - 05:43 .

[Hanabii]

macrocarl wrote...

Here's some key tid bits from it:
* 'The attacks by Sovereign against Eden Prime and the Citadel removed any uncertainty about the Reapers' technological superiority.' <- Ruh roh.
* 'Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents.' <- If a conventional war drug on like it would eventually do, more of this would have revealed itself to be sure. BGecause 'Even with all the Reapers' power, harvesting every sapient species in an entire galaxy can take decades or even centuries.'
*The rate of killing is phenomenal. Intelligence estimates suggest there are more than 400 processor ships on Earth, killing approximately 1.86 million humans per day. In combination with battlefield deaths, disease, and famine, this pace will result in the complete depopulation of Earth within a decade. As the husks and indoctrinated slaves build more slaughtering facilities, the kill rate can only increase. <-- If a conventional war was to work it'd have to totally wipe out all the Reapers really fast. That's a tall order.
*Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated. <- And by the end of ME3 the galaxy, at the very least, didn't have the 'right intelligence' out of the theoretical brew that is proposed. RE: The Catalyst.

^^This^^

[spiriticon]

In a logical sense the reapers are machines... they have no need for sleep, they have no need for food, they are timeless.

They literally could keep the war going until everyone dies of old age. Which would be funny.

[CrimsonHooj]

3DandBeyond wrote...

CrimsonHooj wrote...

Reaper sovereign class ships outnumber citadel capital ships at least 8-1 or as much as 200-1 (based on codex dates for suspected reaper extinction cycles with 8-1 being the great rift and 200-1 being the Leviathan of dis). Each one of those reapers is capable of destroying a colony or a flotilla of ships including a dreadnought. Also reaper forces require no logistical structure. There are no factories to bomb or supply lines to raid.
So while we can kill reapers we can't win the war.

The only reason we can't is because no one thought it would be interesting to imagine it as possible.  It is impossible only because they wanted to force the crucible on us.  But it makes no sense that no one would even try.

And one guy hiding in the woods can completely destroy a platoon that over-estimates its abilities, under-estimates its foes, relies on non-adaptive behaviour-is basically following a formal plan that they have always followed, especially when fighting for his home.

It is also a fact that just as killing one geth seems to weaken all geth, killing one ore two reapers may have a cumulative effect.  But we will never know because we needed to believe in stupid-a nonsensical MacGuffin that no rational person would ever go for unless it was a truly last ditch effort.  In the beginning of ME3 no one knew how many reapers there were (how could they?), no one really knew they were impossible to beat (yes Sovereign was difficult, but he was beaten with losses and for all they knew he could have been the toughest one around-they didn't know).  Even Shepard didn't know.  Yeah, it's a given they are powerful, but we have access to codices with info that is meta-gaming.  I wouldn't use the OP's info nor anything about reaper numbers as a reason to do anything at the beginning of ME3.  I would use the sight of reapers attacking Earth as proof that they need to figure out how to fight them or if they could fight them other than running straight at them.  But no way would everyone just run off to make the crucible without knowing it was worth it or without thinking they had no other choice.

I'm not going to comment on the cruicible, thats for another thread IMO.
Geth are weakened like that because they share processing power among platforms, there is no evidence that reapers work that way.
That analogy about ambushing a plattoon doesn't hold, it relies on the one soldier being able to kill an enemy soldier.  One deadnaught doesn't have the firepower to even dent a sovereign class reaper let alone take on a fleet of them.  We aren't talking about a few soldiers in a forest, it's fleet vs fleet battles.  All the reapers would have to do is tie down our fleets with a portion of theirs attacking our planets and then they would be free to hit fuel depos, shipyards etc.  Besides the whole point of Javik's story is to show the player that Reapers are highly addaptive and that conventional victory is just not possible.

[dirty console peasant]

spiriticon wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

• shepard has built a career on doing the impossible, the more I am told that is impossible, the more I think that it actually is.

Shepard isn't fighting the war alone. If you had a galaxy full of Shepard clones in Normandies fighting the war I'd totally agree with you.

Shepard wasn't alone when s/he hit the collector base or illos.  It seems like a viable tactic would be to ftl multiple ships from outside the range of a reapers gun to inside the range of the ship that you are on while pretargeting using the interferometric array on the crucible, then once the shots are fired ftl out before the reaper can react.

[Kamfrenchie]

spiriticon wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

shepard is pretty much figting the war alone, most other people seems incompetent. No tctic, just run straight at the reapers and don't focus fire.

All the more reason a conventional victory isn't possible? Incompetent allies that simply aren't as good as Shepard?

'Richard L Jenkins' syndrome.

well yes because they are written s being incompetent, but if they were competent, amon other things it would b doable.
But hey, since mass effect 2 had a stupid council not doing anything despite the obvious proofs and this incompetence is spreading everywhere in ME3, ofc the writer wrote himself iinto a corner and a DEM.

The galaxy shouldhave been prepared for the reapers, but bioware wrote an absurd level of incompetenc eto ensure it idn't happen.

In this case everyon was too dumb to live and almost deserve to die instead of being convenienly savd by the crucible

Also FFS THE REAPERS DONT OUTUMBER US  ! people keep saying that but where is the proof ? And people exagerate the power difference, a dreadnaught can put a dent on a capship, why is everyone making absolute out of these situations ?

If the reapers were aywhere near as powerful as what some people describe, hackett wouldnt have any fleet lleft and the crucibl could never reach the citadel

[sp0ck 06]

I wish people would shut up about stupid "conventional victory." Its clearly impossible. We are repeatedly told this throughout all three games. Why do people continue making these threads? Its tiresome

[sp0ck 06]

Kamfrenchie wrote...


Also FFS THE REAPERS DONT OUTUMBER US  ! people keep saying that but where is the proof ? And people exagerate the power difference, a dreadnaught can put a dent on a capship, why is everyone making absolute out of these situations ?

If the reapers were aywhere near as powerful as what some people describe, hackett wouldnt have any fleet lleft and the crucibl could never reach the citadel

WTF are you talking about dude?  Read the codex entries.  The allied forces have less than 100 dreadnaughts.  The Reapers have AT LEAST hundreds of Sovereign class ships, not to mention probably thousands of destroyers, occuli, and a LIMITLESS supply of ground  forces.  They do not need to refuel, their ships are bigger and faster......

THEY CANNOT BE BEATEN.

[spiriticon]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

well yes because they are written s being incompetent, but if they were competent, amon other things it would b doable.
But hey, since mass effect 2 had a stupid council not doing anything despite the obvious proofs and this incompetence is spreading everywhere in ME3, ofc the writer wrote himself iinto a corner and a DEM.

The galaxy shouldhave been prepared for the reapers, but bioware wrote an absurd level of incompetenc eto ensure it idn't happen.

In this case everyon was too dumb to live and almost deserve to die instead of being convenienly savd by the crucible

Also FFS THE REAPERS DONT OUTUMBER US  ! people keep saying that but where is the proof ? And people exagerate the power difference, a dreadnaught can put a dent on a capship, why is everyone making absolute out of these situations ?

If the reapers were aywhere near as powerful as what some people describe, hackett wouldnt have any fleet lleft and the crucibl could never reach the citadel

Since ME1 nobody believed that the Reapers were here, not ME2. People only started noticing only when the crap hit the fan and the Reapers were already chowing down. To make everyone competent would mean retconning ME1 and ME2...

Also, the Catalyst specifically says "You are vastly outnumbered." That's where a lot of the people are getting the idea from.

[Sajuro]

Another reason it isn't possible is Morale, conventional wars run on breaking the morale of the population at large, if you shoot a cannibal it isn't going to go home in a box to ma and pa cannibal. If a reaper destroyer is destroyed, there is no civilian population of the Reapers to say "lets rethink this" the reapers don't give a ****, they are machines with the goal to harvest advanced civilizations and preserve them in the form of more Reapers. The reapers you destroy don't have loved ones back in dark space, this isn't a war to Reapers, it's a harvest.

[spiriticon]

I find a lot of people also forget about indoctrination, amongst other things.

The Reapers don't actually need to fire a gun to win the war, they can actually get you to kill yourself if they wanted to really.

Quick indoctrination, BAM. Suicides galore.

[Kamfrenchie]

spiriticon wrote...

I find a lot of people also forget about indoctrination, amongst other things.

The Reapers don't actually need to fire a gun to win the war, they can actually get you to kill yourself if they wanted to really.

Quick indoctrination, BAM. Suicides galore.

except indoctrination takes time to happen, otherwise earth would have been completely conquered much faster.

Also again, whether it is written or not, if the reapers ships at earth outnumber the allied fleet, there is no way the crucible would make it to the citadel, since a reaper can apprently pretty much one shot any allied ship.

Modifié par Kamfrenchie, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:40 .

[Kamfrenchie]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...


Also FFS THE REAPERS DONT OUTUMBER US  ! people keep saying that but where is the proof ? And people exagerate the power difference, a dreadnaught can put a dent on a capship, why is everyone making absolute out of these situations ?

If the reapers were aywhere near as powerful as what some people describe, hackett wouldnt have any fleet lleft and the crucibl could never reach the citadel

WTF are you talking about dude?  Read the codex entries.  The allied forces have less than 100 dreadnaughts.  The Reapers have AT LEAST hundreds of Sovereign class ships, not to mention probably thousands of destroyers, occuli, and a LIMITLESS supply of ground  forces.  They do not need to refuel, their ships are bigger and faster......

THEY CANNOT BE BEATEN.

I'm sorry i didn't see hundredsof sovereign. And i don't see how other ships like frigates and cruisers wouldn't be able to take out a sovereign with enough numbers.
If i tell you it takes 3 wolverine to kill a tiger tank, that odesnt mean shermans are out of the equation

[spiriticon]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

I find a lot of people also forget about indoctrination, amongst other things.

The Reapers don't actually need to fire a gun to win the war, they can actually get you to kill yourself if they wanted to really.

Quick indoctrination, BAM. Suicides galore.

exceptindoctrination takes time to happen, otherwise earth would have been completely conquered much faster

A quick indoctrination is possible if they wanted to. Just leaves the person a quivering mental wreck. Hard to fight a war when you're a wreck.

It's all dependent on what the Reapers want to do.

[Kamfrenchie]

spiriticon wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

I find a lot of people also forget about indoctrination, amongst other things.

The Reapers don't actually need to fire a gun to win the war, they can actually get you to kill yourself if they wanted to really.

Quick indoctrination, BAM. Suicides galore.

exceptindoctrination takes time to happen, otherwise earth would have been completely conquered much faster

A quick indoctrination is possible if they wanted to. Just leaves the person a quivering mental wreck. Hard to fight a war when you're a wreck.

It's all dependent on what the Reapers want to do.

but how quick is it? And then why didn't they indoctrinate the whole earth while shepard was away? Indoctrination doesn't just hppen like that. You see that hammer soldiers aren't  broken, they're not optimistic, but they're in fighting condition alright.


Too much theorical superpower given to the reapers..

Also again, whether it is written or not, if the reapers ships at earth
outnumber the allied fleet, there is no way the crucible would make it
to the citadel, since a reaper can apprently pretty much one shot any
allied ship.

And after ME1, people should have believed in the reapers. Th fact that they don't is too much of a stretch.

Modifié par Kamfrenchie, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:45 .

[X-Com_Psi_Amp]

Leviathan of DIS is the oldest known reaper, dating 1 billion years ago
that means there were at least 20,000 cycles
ME2 states that it takes several hundred million humans to make one reaper. Since this is humans they were talking about, this refers to Sovereign class capital ship Reapers
let's assume it takes 500 million people to make one Sovereign class Reaper and your average chosen race has 5 billion people. (present day Earth is nearing 7 billion)
That means they can make 10 Sovereign class Reapers a cycle
Which means the Reapers have around 200,000 Sovereign class reapers. This number does not include Destroyers, Occulus and Husks

For comparison, the largest known fleet in the galaxy belongs to the Quarians, numbering 50,000 ships of all size

And despite all the unified effort look how badly Operation Hammer turned out.

This tells me that there simply isn't enough numbers to fight Reapers

Modifié par X-Com_Psi_Amp, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:47 .

[spiriticon]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

but how quick is it? And then why didn't they indoctrinate the whole earth while shepard was away? Indoctrination doesn't just hppen like that. You see that hammer soldiers aren't  broken, they're not optimistic, but they're in fighting condition alright.


Too much theorical superpower given to the reapers..

Also again, whether it is written or not, if the reapers ships at earth
outnumber the allied fleet, there is no way the crucible would make it
to the citadel, since a reaper can apprently pretty much one shot any
allied ship.

And after ME1, people should have believed in the reapers. Th fact that they don't is too much of a stretch.

I give you the codex.

"Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days
or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."

You're not going to beat the Reapers conventionally in days or weeks. The war will last decades. That is more than enough time for indoctrination to work. After 5 years in constant Reaper presence, Garrus will be turning his gun on you.

And they probably did indoctrinate the whole Earth in their presence. They just preferred the slow way to get more subservient underlings. The moment they see you as a threat, BAM, quick indoctrination.

Modifié par spiriticon, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:52 .

[FAButzke]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

...except indoctrination takes time to happen, otherwise earth would have been completely conquered much faster.

I'll give you one example: Eden Prime...
It went pretty quick over there. People turning into husks in hours if not minutes. (And I should note that while turning into husks IS NOT the same as indoctrination, the concept is the same: Turning your allies into your enemies.)
I love how people forget things and start posting non sense over non sense.
BTW this topic is a non sense itself.
Get your facts straight people. Replay the game if you have to before making shallow assumptions. I've quoted just you but I've 'facepalm' more times than the number of posts in this topic while reading you guys...
Sad indeed.

Modifié par FAButzke, 14 juillet 2012 - 12:09 .

[Kamfrenchie]

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...

Leviathan of DIS is the oldest known reaper, dating 1 billion years ago
that means there were at least 20,000 cycles
ME2 states that it takes several hundred million humans to make one reaper. Since this is humans they were talking about, this refers to Sovereign class capital ship Reapers
let's assume it takes 500 million people to make one Sovereign class Reaper and your average chosen race has 5 billion people. (present day Earth is nearing 7 billion)
That means they can make 10 Sovereign class Reapers a cycle
Which means the Reapers have around 200,000 Sovereign class reapers. This number does not include Destroyers, Occulus and Husks

For comparison, the largest known fleet in the galaxy belongs to the Quarians, numbering 50,000 ships of all size

And despite all the unified effort look how badly Operation Hammer turned out.

This tells me that there simply isn't enough numbers to fight Reapers

We don't know if there was a "real" harvest every 50k years. By that I mean, there coul be "gaps" with no inteligent species developing durin seeral cycles, or there could be species that can't be processed efficiently ( couldthey mke a reaper with volus ? i doubt it )
That's theorycrafting and not hard evidence.

And about Indoctrination, well if you get the chance, don't stay near a reaper for long periods... Shepard got exposed to plenty of reaper stuff and wasn't indoctrinated. Only real cases of indoctrination that have afaik happened were people exposed directly for prolonged time to reaper tech or reaper themselves (ie, spitting rang of a reaper or reaper device)

Also, what d you have with husk ? husk aren't that strong ven in numbr. Unless people don't build machine guns in the future they can be dealt with easily.
Zombies are never a threat unless there is no competent military around or low ammo. But then everything else is.

Modifié par Kamfrenchie, 14 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .

[ld1449]

saracen16 wrote...

Snip*


.

Well said, but everything you've pointed out so far is bad tactics at the start of the war that cost the Turians and the Asari because they'd been clinging to symbols and locations of cultural importance to them, unwilling to loose them. They essentially got their asses kicked because they fought with their hearts rather than their heads.

With that out of the way and every species conforming to the "cold calculus" as Garrus called it their tactics will adjust acordingly to face the threat rather than fully commit to defending any one world like the Turians and Asari did.

Furthermore, we do not know how many Reapers are on earth, or what percentage of their fleet that is.

One thing I can say is that nearly every single reaper above earth guarding the Citadel is a Reaper Capital ship judging by the cinematics.

Most of what we see at the end game with the EC on thessia and Tuchanka and such are the smaller variants of Reapers, in other words a "token" forces that the Reapers left behind while they consolidated their strength around the Citadel.

Do not forget Vigil and Javik's statements regarding the reapers tactics. They didn't assault every single plannet at once, they went system by system , and planet by planet, harvesting them completely before moving on. This implies that though their numbers are great (great enough to bog down whole worlds with their equivalent of skirmishers) the bulk of their forces goes system by system and planet by planet to completely purge them of life.

So this can be taken to mean that if the battle for earth can be fought and won with a high enough EMS you can essentially break the back of the reaper fleet by destroying the vast majority of their most powerful ships, the Capital Ships like Sovereign and Harbinger, the ones that soak up bullets and dish out the most dammage.

Furthermore by liberating any ONE world of the primary council species, Earth, Thessia or Palaven you give the races on said planets some much needed breathing room, which they simply haven't had since this whole thing began. Breathing room is vastly more important than almost anything else in a potracted campaign.

By liberating Earth from the Reaper forces (the bulk of them mind you) You not only give the humans some of that "breathing room" you also give the Turians and Asari a place they can finally take some of their refuges along with a place where they can repair and regroup

Furthermore if the Humans and other races were to act fast enough they could shore up the Sol System against any imminent future attacks all of which would be of less power than the force they had to overcome innitially taking earth due to the lack of Capital ships and because every ship they pull back from another planet is less pressure they're putting on the Krogan, Turian and Asari. The Reapers have their forces comitted across the galaxy, their tactics demand such.

We dont.

Winning the battle for earth would be the turning point of the entire war. It wouldn't be easy, you'd probably be subjecting the galaxy to decades of further conflict.

But possible?

After a victory over Earth. Yeah definitely possible, especially with the Reapers chosen set of tactics. Tactics that they quite frankly NEED to employ.

Modifié par ld1449, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:01 .

[Clayless]

Everyone forgets about indoctrination, and FTL.

If your enemy can teleport around the galaxy, without you able to follow them, and has vast fire power and the ability to make you all kill each other you can't beat them.