541 réponses à ce sujet

[Kamfrenchie]

spiriticon wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

And about Indoctrination, well if you get the chance, don't stay near a reaper for long periods... Shepard got exposed to plenty of reaper stuff and wasn't indoctrinated. Only real cases of indoctrination that have afaik happened were people exposed directly for prolonged time to reaper tech or reaper themselves (ie, spitting rang of a reaper or reaper device)

How are we meant to fight a war conventionally against an enemy we can't even get near for fear of indoctrination....? Besides, every husk,ravager, banshee, brute is Reaper tech. Reaper tech is all over the place.

Shepard is Shepard.  If he has plot armor, great, but that doesn't extend to the rest of the Alliance forces. And he might even be indoctrinated, if you believe half the theories here.

You make sure the soldiers don't spend whole months too close. You won't get indoctrinated by simple contact. t take prolonged exposure. Have eserv, relieve the oldiers that foughtfor a while.
Again, hammer isn't indoctrinated at all, so your theorycrafting is wrong.

You have no evidence it would be so easy to indoctrinate people. Only persons that were indoctrinatd were in spitting range of a sovereign class reaper for prlonged time or implanted themselves with reaper tech.


It's like radiations. Sure i'd die if i found myself in the reactor of a nuclear plant, but if i was to spend some hours in a town not too far away fom tchernobyl, i probably wouln't have uber cancer automaticaly (well maybe I would, i don't know the precise radiation levels). It's not the freaking virus from resident evil. Or the ring of sauron

Modifié par Kamfrenchie, 14 juillet 2012 - 10:23 .

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

And about Indoctrination, well if you get the chance, don't stay near a reaper for long periods... Shepard got exposed to plenty of reaper stuff and wasn't indoctrinated. Only real cases of indoctrination that have afaik happened were people exposed directly for prolonged time to reaper tech or reaper themselves (ie, spitting rang of a reaper or reaper device)

How are we meant to fight a war conventionally against an enemy we can't even get near for fear of indoctrination....? Besides, every husk,ravager, banshee, brute is Reaper tech. Reaper tech is all over the place.

Shepard is Shepard.  If he has plot armor, great, but that doesn't extend to the rest of the Alliance forces. And he might even be indoctrinated, if you believe half the theories here.

You make sure the soldiers don't spend whole months too close. You won't get indoctrinated by simple contact. t take prolonged exposure. Have eserv, relieve the oldiers that foughtfor a while.
Again, hammer isn't indoctrinated at all, so your theorycrafting is wrong.

ou have no evidence it would be so easy to indoctrinate people. Only persons that were indoctrinatd were in spitting range of a sovereign class reaper for prlonged time or implanted themselves with reaper tech.


It's like radiations. Sure i'd die if i found myself in the reactor of a nuclear plant, but if i was to spend some hous in a ton not oo far away fom tchernobyl, i probably wouln't have uber ancer automaticaly (well maybe I would, i don't know the precise radiation levels). It's not the freaking virus from resident evil. Or the ring of sauron

.......or just use the technology at sanctuary to control anyone who gets indoctrinated.

[robertthebard]

ld1449 wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Just saying the Vietnam analogy is terrible. The Reapers don't have to deal with public opinion. The Americans won basically every battle of the Vietnam War, but withdrew due to overwhelming dissatisfaction back in the US coupled with the different foreign policy ideas brought in by the Nixon administration.

Added a whole bunch of other ones a little after that.

None of those were wars of extermination fought against machines thousands of years more advanced than ourselves. Is conventional victory technically possible? Of course, it doesn't break any laws of the universe. It still would seem out-of-place and silly.

Not any more out of place than glow boy, who comes completely out of left field. Not any sillier than his flawed and completely asinine logic that doesn't hold up to a lick of scrutiny.

Mass effect has always ended on a "Victory!!!" Note, the "King of the hill" scene after beating Saren, the charge through the colector base while the whole thing was blowing up. It always ended on a High note. Now from out of nowhere it introduces a DEM with a giant Reaper off switch (that they basically said wouldn't happen) and three flavors of bitter sweet bordering on bitter/nonsensical (Renegade Control and Synthesis respectively)

That is the whole problem.  This is exactly why I believe the game should have ended in London.  Roll credits, you've failed to save the day.

[marcustheMezz]

 I think convetional victory is fine, I mean, why not? I think the fleets could seriously win, probably not in an all out battle, but if they focused on catching reapers seperately and ganging up on them, like using that radar pulse the Normandy uses to draw a few out and then lead them into a trap with multiple dreadnoughts, they could have thinned out their numbers enough to make an all out assault have a victory a possibility in the end. 

[The_Crazy_Hand]

marcustheMezz wrote...

 I think convetional victory is fine, I mean, why not? I think the fleets could seriously win, probably not in an all out battle, but if they focused on catching reapers seperately and ganging up on them, like using that radar pulse the Normandy uses to draw a few out and then lead them into a trap with multiple dreadnoughts, they could have thinned out their numbers enough to make an all out assault have a victory a possibility in the end. 

They'd likely learn from that, but that isn't to say that they couldn't try other things, like hit and run techniques, deploying the turian bomb, or making a massive thanix cannon.

[dirty console peasant]

Everyone who seems to be trying to prove that we can not win conventionally does not seem to be figuring that anything other than a dreadnaught can take down a reaper capitol ship. However the codex states that thanix cannons work well against capitol ship's barriers, and thanix cannons can be mounted on something as small as a fighter. Therefore if you have enough ships of any size firing on any harbinger type reaper then the reaper is dead. I figure 4 thanix cruisers, maybe 8 thanix frigates (the normandy took out the collector ship with no problems when it had the thanix cannon upgrade), and 16 fighters (thanks joccaren for that number, it makes sense..maybe a few less). This makes conventional victory more possible.

[spiriticon]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

You make sure the soldiers don't spend whole months too close. You won't get indoctrinated by simple contact. t take prolonged exposure. Have eserv, relieve the oldiers that foughtfor a while.
Again, hammer isn't indoctrinated at all, so your theorycrafting is wrong.

You have no evidence it would be so easy to indoctrinate people. Only persons that were indoctrinatd were in spitting range of a sovereign class reaper for prlonged time or implanted themselves with reaper tech.


It's like radiations. Sure i'd die if i found myself in the reactor of a nuclear plant, but if i was to spend some hours in a town not too far away fom tchernobyl, i probably wouln't have uber cancer automaticaly (well maybe I would, i don't know the precise radiation levels). It's not the freaking virus from resident evil. Or the ring of sauron

I actually have good reason to believe that is it possible to indoctrinate people easily.

Captain Kirrahe's STG team was indoctrinated in the time it took for the council to send them to investigate Saren, and the time it took for Shepard to get there. That is all within the timeline of Mass Effect 1. That is a mere few weeks at the very most, probably days.

The Ardat Yakshi were indoctrinated in the time it took for the Reapers to invade the Monastery and the time it took for Shepard to get there. All within the timeline of ME3.

Amanda Kenson and Rana Thanoptis were indoctrinated without needing to be near a Sovereign class Reaper or have any implants. They only had to be near Reaper Tech or Artifacts. And like I said, at the time of Reaper invasion in ME3 reaper tech is EVERYWHERE. There's absolutely no where to run.

The point is, you can resist indoctrination for days, but certainly not the decades or centuries that would be required to win this war conventionally. IT'S A LONG WAR.

And saying we could use the tech on Sanctuary to control the Indoctrinated in silly on space magic levels because

a) it's husks, not indoctrinated people, that you control
it's experimental tech
c) Cerberus isn't going to hand you any tech info since the Illusive has already been indoctrinated and almost all their people are now reaper-lites
d) any anti-indoctrination tech is space magic since it has no foreshadowing whatsoever in the previous 2 games

Modifié par spiriticon, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:39 .

[spiriticon]

People seem to think the Alliance has an infinte number of cruisers and ships that they can fit with Thanix Cannons to save the day. It really doesn't matter how many Alliance Ships you need to bring down one Reaper because at the end of the day, it's stated very clearly that they 'vastly outnumber' us. Even if you can win on a 1 vs 1 situation (lol), the Reapers still have forces to spare.

Then we come to the argument of 'well number's isn't everything!'. We can use <insert clever tactic> here to beat them. And I go 'Yeah sure'. The Reapers, who have fought organics for billions of years before us and absorbed all their knowledge and history and are AI beyond our comprehension, could probably beat us at the clever game. We need a tactic they we can guarantee they have never seen before in billions of years of constant warfare. Anybody can find proof of said tactic? Do our galactic records even go back that far? Hell we don't even know much about the Protheans war tactics (which failed them even though they were a militant species) until Javik came along and that's a single cycle back. It's safe to assume the Reapers will adapt and be OK.

The best thing you can do for a conventional victory is to put on your plot armor, go Rambo, and win the damn war ignoring all the plotholes about the Reapers being stronger than us, more vastly numbered than us, smarter than us, indoctrination etc etc etc

That is not much of a better ending than BioWares except that it flavoured with a more rainbows and unicorns touch. As a video gamer myself, it brings more satisfaction for sure. But it's not theoretically better.

Modifié par spiriticon, 15 juillet 2012 - 04:21 .

[T-Bone665]

Every argument based on "hard numbers" that I have seen so far was mostly guesswork. This holds true for pro-CV as well as contra-CV. Joccaren's Thanix calculation is no different. Math based on simplified assumptions just doesn't prove anything. His calculation is based on the flawed assumption that you can just multiply weapon force with ship size, but that doesn't necessarily work in 3 dimensions. The kinetic energy of a projectile would double with twice the cannon length, yes, but only for the same projectile undergoing the same acceleration.

Additionally, the codex entry stating that fighters would get the firepower of cruisers is ambigous. It says "fighters or frigates". The Normandy took down the Collector cruiser, so it could also refer to frigates only - and it still doesn't give us anything exact when it comes to cruisers and dreadnoughts. The Normandy still wins if you don't update her weapons, so the difference can't be that extreme.

Can you really imagine a scene where 16 fighters destroy a vessel that is 200 times as long (that's 8 million times the volume) and think "yeah, this feels right"? With the same logic, 4 Occuli (Reaper "Thanix" fighters) would be able to take out a dreadnought.

[Sajuro]

To the people who keep talking about sanctuary tech to control husks, how did that work for them? Do you think anyone would pick that project back up? You know after the Reapers said 'lol nope' as soon as they got tired of it.

[Kamfrenchie]

spiriticon wrote...

People seem to think the Alliance has an infinte number of cruisers and ships that they can fit with Thanix Cannons to save the day. It really doesn't matter how many Alliance Ships you need to bring down one Reaper because at the end of the day, it's stated very clearly that they 'vastly outnumber' us. Even if you can win on a 1 vs 1 situation (lol), the Reapers still have forces to spare.

Then we come to the argument of 'well number's isn't everything!'. We can use <insert clever tactic> here to beat them. And I go 'Yeah sure'. The Reapers, who have fought organics for billions of years before us and absorbed all their knowledge and history and are AI beyond our comprehension, could probably beat us at the clever game. We need a tactic they we can guarantee they have never seen before in billions of years of constant warfare. Anybody can find proof of said tactic? Do our galactic records even go back that far? Hell we don't even know much about the Protheans war tactics (which failed them even though they were a militant species) until Javik came along and that's a single cycle back. It's safe to assume the Reapers will adapt and be OK.

The best thing you can do for a conventional victory is to put on your plot armor, go Rambo, and win the damn war ignoring all the plotholes about the Reapers being stronger than us, more vastly numbered than us, smarter than us, indoctrination etc etc etc

That is not much of a better ending than BioWares except that it flavoured with a more rainbows and unicorns touch. As a video gamer myself, it brings more satisfaction for sure. But it's not theoretically better.

They dont have the knowledge of the pevious species. The memory is in the brain, you don't get memories by liquefying people and absorbing them, not in any decen sci-fi universe.

And also the turians managed to outsmart the reapers.

Andwhat makes you think the reapers will fight to the last one ? Thy are ach a independant nation, wouldn't it make sense that they wouldn't want to die, or to keep fighing if they take enough losses that the next cycle might beat them ?

We're talking prior to ME3 bad writing of invincibl reapers (except with cains and ground troops lol)

And again, blow up a mass relay in the sector where their man force is, here is you advantag.

[Kamfrenchie]

spiriticon wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

You make sure the soldiers don't spend whole months too close. You won't get indoctrinated by simple contact. t take prolonged exposure. Have eserv, relieve the oldiers that foughtfor a while.
Again, hammer isn't indoctrinated at all, so your theorycrafting is wrong.

You have no evidence it would be so easy to indoctrinate people. Only persons that were indoctrinatd were in spitting range of a sovereign class reaper for prlonged time or implanted themselves with reaper tech.


It's like radiations. Sure i'd die if i found myself in the reactor of a nuclear plant, but if i was to spend some hours in a town not too far away fom tchernobyl, i probably wouln't have uber cancer automaticaly (well maybe I would, i don't know the precise radiation levels). It's not the freaking virus from resident evil. Or the ring of sauron

I actually have good reason to believe that is it possible to indoctrinate people easily.

Captain Kirrahe's STG team was indoctrinated in the time it took for the council to send them to investigate Saren, and the time it took for Shepard to get there. That is all within the timeline of Mass Effect 1. That is a mere few weeks at the very most, probably days.

The Ardat Yakshi were indoctrinated in the time it took for the Reapers to invade the Monastery and the time it took for Shepard to get there. All within the timeline of ME3.

Amanda Kenson and Rana Thanoptis were indoctrinated without needing to be near a Sovereign class Reaper or have any implants. They only had to be near Reaper Tech or Artifacts. And like I said, at the time of Reaper invasion in ME3 reaper tech is EVERYWHERE. There's absolutely no where to run.

The point is, you can resist indoctrination for days, but certainly not the decades or centuries that would be required to win this war conventionally. IT'S A LONG WAR.

And saying we could use the tech on Sanctuary to control the Indoctrinated in silly on space magic levels because

a) it's husks, not indoctrinated people, that you control
it's experimental tech
c) Cerberus isn't going to hand you any tech info since the Illusive has already been indoctrinated and almost all their people are now reaper-lites
d) any anti-indoctrination tech is space magic since it has no foreshadowing whatsoever in the previous 2 games

well then its unreliable narration. Again, hammer aint indoctrinated. The turians aren't.
The STG team could simply havebeen more vulnerable be unprepared or whatever.

ME3 is badly written with reapers being simultaneously invincible and completey helpless....
And i dont buy dlcs

And  don't see how reaper tech is everywhere seriously

[The_Crazy_Hand]

spiriticon wrote...
a) it's husks, not indoctrinated people, that you control
it's experimental tech
c) Cerberus isn't going to hand you any tech info since the Illusive has already been indoctrinated and almost all their people are now reaper-lites
d) any anti-indoctrination tech is space magic since it has no foreshadowing whatsoever in the previous 2 games

...............

Here is why you should no longer try and argue with people:

a. Husks ARE indoctrinated people, they are just much more heavily indoctrinated, but they are controlled the same way, and by the same machines.
b. Tested thoroughly and refined by the time you get to Sanctuary, for all intents and purposs, it is officially finished by that point.
c. No **** but guss what?  Cerberus is gone in case you were wonderings.  Not only was sanctuary seized, a fact made quite obvious when you play through the game, but after Cronos station was raided?  Yeah, pretty sure there are no Cerberus left to resist you anymore.  I honestly can not believe you are this blind.
d. It isn't anti-indoctrination, and I can only begin to imagine what kind of insane logic led you to believe that it was.

[ObserverStatus]

Um, maybe I misread the codex, but it said that it takes 4 dreadnoughts to destroy a Reaper Capital ship. That's all well and good, but I was under the impression that Reaper Capital Ships badly, badly outnumber organic controlled dreadnoughts.

[im commander shep]

No Its not and it has nothing to do with weapons and how we attack. Hackett explaned it in game perfectly, any conventional war would turn into a war of attrtion which the combined races forces would have no hope of winning. Reapers require no fuel supplies and turn the enemies troops against them. They don't need sleep or need to return to port or a station for repairs. Hackett said we could win battles and i'm sure the massed fleets could even take back earth but in the end the the reapers would wear them down and slowly over time beat them. This is why they need a super weapon and can't defeat then with conventional warfare.

Modifié par im commander shep, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:52 .

[Sajuro]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

spiriticon wrote...
a) it's husks, not indoctrinated people, that you control
it's experimental tech
c) Cerberus isn't going to hand you any tech info since the Illusive has already been indoctrinated and almost all their people are now reaper-lites
d) any anti-indoctrination tech is space magic since it has no foreshadowing whatsoever in the previous 2 games

...............

Here is why you should no longer try and argue with people:

a. Husks ARE indoctrinated people, they are just much more heavily indoctrinated, but they are controlled the same way, and by the same machines.
b. Tested thoroughly and refined by the time you get to Sanctuary, for all intents and purposs, it is officially finished by that point.
c. No **** but guss what?  Cerberus is gone in case you were wonderings.  Not only was sanctuary seized, a fact made quite obvious when you play through the game, but after Cronos station was raided?  Yeah, pretty sure there are no Cerberus left to resist you anymore.  I honestly can not believe you are this blind.
d. It isn't anti-indoctrination, and I can only begin to imagine what kind of insane logic led you to believe that it was.

a. ..... there is a difference between light indoctrination and 'husk', a huge difference, one has the whispering in your head, the other you're a mindless abomination. Using tech to control and indoctrinated person seems kind of like a moral event horizon.
b. It is officially finished but Sanctuary is destroyed by Reaper forces, the reaper forces that it was supposed to be able to control, and I assume there are less Reapers in control range for horizon than earth, yep, will totally work
c.is the data intact? when the reapers destroyed sanctuary, do you still have the tech?
d.oh yes, it isn't anti indoctrination, you're only getting in on mind raping people who are indoctrinated good guys ftw

[Kamfrenchie]

im commander shep wrote...

No Its not and it has nothing to do with weapons and how we attack. Hackett explaned it in game perfectly, any conventional war would turn into a war of attrtion which the combined races forces would have no hope of winning. Reapers require no fuel supplies and turn the enemies troops against them. They don't need sleep or need to return to port or a station for repairs. Hackett said we could win battles and i'm sure the massed fleets could even take back earth but in the end the the reapers would wear them down and slowly over time beat them. This is why they need a super weapon and can't defeat then with conventional warfare.

but reaper can't replenish their number of ships, while the combined races can.

Also,  don't have any faith in Hacket, since he compared the crucible to the atomic bomb (uggh people thought it would ignite the atmosphere, yeah right), which has nothing in common.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Sajuro wrote...
a. ..... there is a difference between light indoctrination and 'husk', a huge difference, one has the whispering in your head, the other you're a mindless abomination. Using tech to control and indoctrinated person seems kind of like a moral event horizon.
b. It is officially finished but Sanctuary is destroyed by Reaper forces, the reaper forces that it was supposed to be able to control, and I assume there are less Reapers in control range for horizon than earth, yep, will totally work
c.is the data intact? when the reapers destroyed sanctuary, do you still have the tech?
d.oh yes, it isn't anti indoctrination, you're only getting in on mind raping people who are indoctrinated good guys ftw

Now see, the other guy should have been having you make his points for him, you're much better at this.  Anyway:

a. This is true, and while I can see the argument for how it maybe doesn't work as well against them, I can't help but think that high level indoctrinees would be "influenced" by it in the same manner as they are influenced by the reapers.  It isn't established that it can or can't, admittedly, but I'm sure you can use a similar principle at least to do it.
b. Yes, but Miranda had a whole lot  to do with it.  Or if she's dead, Oriana. First sending warning signals out so that they'd run out of subjects, and, while it's not stated, she likely disabled the devices.
c. According to Sheperd's conversation with Hackett after the mission, yes.
d. True, but war isn't about ethics, it's about pragmatism and winning.  Especially IRL.  And when the enemy you are at war with simply wants to exterminate you, it's exponentially more so.  Use the blood research of Cerberus to gain an advantage?  Or lose every last person?  I think we can see the more attractive answer.  Not that we wouldn't regret it on some level, but it would be a necessary evil.

This is further re-enforced in the game with Javik saying, "Raise the bodies of a trillion dead souls, and ask them if honor matters"

Or something like that.

Modifié par The_Crazy_Hand, 15 juillet 2012 - 09:21 .

[MasterKiller64]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Theoretically we can kill reapers.

Doesn't mean we can survive long enough to kill thousands of them in aerial combat, as well as countless ground troops.


If conventional victory was an option the galaxy wouldn't put everything it had into defending the Crucible to make sure it docks safely.

 
Theoretically conventional victory is possible, maybe with 8000 EMS (a number currently impossible without new DLC)

Actually I have played enough multiplayer that with a readiness rating atleast in the 90s, I have an EMS well above 8000.

[Sajuro]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Now see, the other guy should have been having you make his points for him, you're much better at this.  Anyway:

a. This is true, and while I can see the argument for how it maybe doesn't work as well against them, I can't help but think that high level indoctrinees would be "influenced" by it in the same manner as they are influenced by the reapers.  It isn't established that it can or can't, admittedly, but I'm sure you can use a similar principle at least to do it.
b. Yes, but Miranda had a whole lot  to do with it.  Or if she's dead, Oriana. First sending warning signals out so that they'd run out of subjects, and, while it's not stated, she likely disabled the devices.
c. According to Sheperd's conversation with Hackett after the mission, yes.
d. True, but war isn't about ethics, it's about pragmatism and winning.  Especially IRL.  And when the enemy you are at war with simply wants to exterminate you, it's exponentially more so.  Use the blood research of Cerberus to gain an advantage?  Or lose every last person?  I think we can see the more attractive answer.  Not that we wouldn't regret it on some level, but it would be a necessary evil.

This is further re-enforced in the game with Javik saying, "Raise the bodies of a trillion dead souls, and ask them if honor matters"

Or something like that.

Unless it specifically stated, I don't think Miranda disabled the devices, rather the reapers got in range and their signal overrid the Cerberus signal. Also dabbling in Reaper tech always ends badly for organics it seems, and I can't get past the ethics of it all since we have the crucible and I would prefer that over a conventional victory, even though it wouldn't be possible, that used indoctrination. the Javik quote is "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask them if honor matters. Their silence will be your answer" he also talked about how the strong must rule the weak and throwing legion out the airlock, so there's that.

[Sajuro]

MasterKiller64 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Theoretically we can kill reapers.

Doesn't mean we can survive long enough to kill thousands of them in aerial combat, as well as countless ground troops.


If conventional victory was an option the galaxy wouldn't put everything it had into defending the Crucible to make sure it docks safely.

 
Theoretically conventional victory is possible, maybe with 8000 EMS (a number currently impossible without new DLC)

Actually I have played enough multiplayer that with a readiness rating atleast in the 90s, I have an EMS well above 8000.

is OVER 9000?!

[G Kevin]

I would think that, learning from Rannoch, we could take more comfort seeing as a well placed shot would knock a Reaper ship's main weapon down and possibly destroying it.

[MasterKiller64]

Sajuro wrote...

MasterKiller64 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Theoretically we can kill reapers.

Doesn't mean we can survive long enough to kill thousands of them in aerial combat, as well as countless ground troops.


If conventional victory was an option the galaxy wouldn't put everything it had into defending the Crucible to make sure it docks safely.

 
Theoretically conventional victory is possible, maybe with 8000 EMS (a number currently impossible without new DLC)

Actually I have played enough multiplayer that with a readiness rating atleast in the 90s, I have an EMS well above 8000.

is OVER 9000?!

Not quite there yet. You will have to hold that meme for a bit.

[Kamfrenchie]

Sajuro wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Now see, the other guy should have been having you make his points for him, you're much better at this.  Anyway:

a. This is true, and while I can see the argument for how it maybe doesn't work as well against them, I can't help but think that high level indoctrinees would be "influenced" by it in the same manner as they are influenced by the reapers.  It isn't established that it can or can't, admittedly, but I'm sure you can use a similar principle at least to do it.
b. Yes, but Miranda had a whole lot  to do with it.  Or if she's dead, Oriana. First sending warning signals out so that they'd run out of subjects, and, while it's not stated, she likely disabled the devices.
c. According to Sheperd's conversation with Hackett after the mission, yes.
d. True, but war isn't about ethics, it's about pragmatism and winning.  Especially IRL.  And when the enemy you are at war with simply wants to exterminate you, it's exponentially more so.  Use the blood research of Cerberus to gain an advantage?  Or lose every last person?  I think we can see the more attractive answer.  Not that we wouldn't regret it on some level, but it would be a necessary evil.

This is further re-enforced in the game with Javik saying, "Raise the bodies of a trillion dead souls, and ask them if honor matters"

Or something like that.

Unless it specifically stated, I don't think Miranda disabled the devices, rather the reapers got in range and their signal overrid the Cerberus signal. Also dabbling in Reaper tech always ends badly for organics it seems, and I can't get past the ethics of it all since we have the crucible and I would prefer that over a conventional victory, even though it wouldn't be possible, that used indoctrination. the Javik quote is "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask them if honor matters. Their silence will be your answer" he also talked about how the strong must rule the weak and throwing legion out the airlock, so there's that.

thanix guns didn't end badly, and it was based off reaper tech

[Sajuro]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Now see, the other guy should have been having you make his points for him, you're much better at this.  Anyway:

a. This is true, and while I can see the argument for how it maybe doesn't work as well against them, I can't help but think that high level indoctrinees would be "influenced" by it in the same manner as they are influenced by the reapers.  It isn't established that it can or can't, admittedly, but I'm sure you can use a similar principle at least to do it.
b. Yes, but Miranda had a whole lot  to do with it.  Or if she's dead, Oriana. First sending warning signals out so that they'd run out of subjects, and, while it's not stated, she likely disabled the devices.
c. According to Sheperd's conversation with Hackett after the mission, yes.
d. True, but war isn't about ethics, it's about pragmatism and winning.  Especially IRL.  And when the enemy you are at war with simply wants to exterminate you, it's exponentially more so.  Use the blood research of Cerberus to gain an advantage?  Or lose every last person?  I think we can see the more attractive answer.  Not that we wouldn't regret it on some level, but it would be a necessary evil.

This is further re-enforced in the game with Javik saying, "Raise the bodies of a trillion dead souls, and ask them if honor matters"

Or something like that.

Unless it specifically stated, I don't think Miranda disabled the devices, rather the reapers got in range and their signal overrid the Cerberus signal. Also dabbling in Reaper tech always ends badly for organics it seems, and I can't get past the ethics of it all since we have the crucible and I would prefer that over a conventional victory, even though it wouldn't be possible, that used indoctrination. the Javik quote is "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask them if honor matters. Their silence will be your answer" he also talked about how the strong must rule the weak and throwing legion out the airlock, so there's that.

thanix guns didn't end badly, and it was based off reaper tech

They ended at thanix missiles, that is far worse than any indoctrination