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non-starchild victory is possible...data given in game (edited for Omega)


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#351
spiriticon

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The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

...............

Here is why you should no longer try and argue with people:

a. Husks ARE indoctrinated people, they are just much more heavily indoctrinated, but they are controlled the same way, and by the same machines.
b. Tested thoroughly and refined by the time you get to Sanctuary, for all intents and purposs, it is officially finished by that point.
c. No **** but guss what?  Cerberus is gone in case you were wonderings.  Not only was sanctuary seized, a fact made quite obvious when you play through the game, but after Cronos station was raided?  Yeah, pretty sure there are no Cerberus left to resist you anymore.  I honestly can not believe you are this blind.
d. It isn't anti-indoctrination, and I can only begin to imagine what kind of insane logic led you to believe that it was.


If I have to explain the difference between a husk mutated by a dragons'  tooth and a simple indoctrinated person (like Dr. Kenson), then it's really not worth my time is it...?

But yeah, the other guy got it and explained it to quite clearly to you.

Edit Forgot to address the other points.

B) I don't believe so, but Ok.

c) Well then the experts who knew about the research in depth are dead and the research for all intents and purposes, is gone. You are talking about tech which no one else in the galaxy has a clue about.

d) I don't know what angle you were going with this Cerberus Research and how you planned to use it to help you win a conventional war. But, controlling husks will not help you in any way when Alliance Soldiers start shooting each other.

Modifié par spiriticon, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:24 .


#352
The_Crazy_Hand

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Sajuro wrote...

Unless it specifically stated, I don't think Miranda disabled the devices, rather the reapers got in range and their signal overrid the Cerberus signal. Also dabbling in Reaper tech always ends badly for organics it seems, and I can't get past the ethics of it all since we have the crucible and I would prefer that over a conventional victory, even though it wouldn't be possible, that used indoctrination. the Javik quote is "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask them if honor matters. Their silence will be your answer" he also talked about how the strong must rule the weak and throwing legion out the airlock, so there's that.


Well, there's a lot of things in the game not speecifically stated.  Probably because they decided we "don't need to know that."  Still, you can't deny Henry Lawson was hiding behind husks when you raided sanctuary, so regardless of the outcome, it works.  It's just a matter of what happened that resulted in sanctuary falling, too many unknowns.

As for the crucible, let me put it this way.  A massive and costly weapon, that has never been built (except maybe 37 million years ago, but Cerberus has that version anyway), we don't even know what it does, versus:

-Planet Destroying Turian Bombs.
-Thanix Cannons
-Massive guns like what the Krogan have on Tuchanka
-Building more Dreadnoughts, with Thanix Cannons
-Technology that can control husks so that ground troops can attack the reapers themselves instead (combine this with their weaker shield strength once they land on a planet, and enough big guns and you get dead reapers).

And we KNOW that all of the latter work, as well as how (which enables us to make improvements that we also know will work).  And sure, maybe the crucible did work out, but it's not like anyone could have known it would.  It'd make much more sense to use the things we had that knew for a fact would work.

As for Javik, yes he's wrong about a lot of things.  But he's not wrong about war.  Especially wars where you are facing extinction.  


spiriticon wrote...

a bunch of nonsense

 

*smles and nods*

Modifié par The_Crazy_Hand, 15 juillet 2012 - 11:15 .


#353
spiriticon

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Wow, mature retort for when you have absolutely nothing to add. Fair play.

#354
The_Crazy_Hand

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I will have plenty to add if sajuro responds, you I am plain done with.  You have shown yourself to be incapable of grasping simple concepts.

#355
spiriticon

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And you have shown yourself to be quite petty and unreasonable when disagreeing about a certain topic strongly.

I just touched on the topic of indoctrination. Haven't even gone into depth. Jeez.

#356
Andromidius

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Conventional victory was impossible for the North Vietnamese Army against the Americans as well.

So was conventional victory for the Revolutionaries against the Red Coats during the American War of Independance.

I wonder who won both of those conflicts. Both using something called 'unconventional tactics'... Hmm, let me have a think about that one for a moment...

#357
Galenwolf

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saracen16 wrote...

The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers.


I don't want to be drawn into this thread but can I just point out, 500 KT of TnT is something we can produce today, easily. Trident II can hold up to 4 warheads that have the power of 475 kt of TnT - which is more than the main gun on a reaper ship.

Russia's nuclear missiles went into 3 Mt range.

#358
Sajuro

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The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Well, there's a lot of things in the game not speecifically stated.  Probably because they decided we "don't need to know that."  Still, you can't deny Henry Lawson was hiding behind husks when you raided sanctuary, so regardless of the outcome, it works.  It's just a matter of what happened that resulted in sanctuary falling, too many unknowns.

As for the crucible, let me put it this way.  A massive and costly weapon, that has never been built (except maybe 37 million years ago, but Cerberus has that version anyway), we don't even know what it does, versus:

-Planet Destroying Turian Bombs.
-Thanix Cannons
-Massive guns like what the Krogan have on Tuchanka
-Building more Dreadnoughts, with Thanix Cannons
-Technology that can control husks so that ground troops can attack the reapers themselves instead (combine this with their weaker shield strength once they land on a planet, and enough big guns and you get dead reapers).

And we KNOW that all of the latter work, as well as how (which enables us to make improvements that we also know will work).  And sure, maybe the crucible did work out, but it's not like anyone could have known it would.  It'd make much more sense to use the things we had that knew for a fact would work.

As for Javik, yes he's wrong about a lot of things.  But he's not wrong about war.  Especially wars where you are facing extinction. 

 
-I always thought the tuchunka bomb was more like an atomic bomb than planet destroyer, unless of course you are talking about something else. The main issue with the bomb I'm thinking about is mobility, getting it into battle against the reapers without putting reaper bait on it (reaper nip)

-My issue with this is resources unless we are in the universe where the crucible doesn't exist, even then do you think we have enough resources to put a set of cannons on every thanix ready ship? They also seem to have a disadvantage that they can only shoot in one direction which means if you want to put multiple thannix's on a dreadnaught, you either have to put them all facing forward or only be able to use your cannon if the enemy is right in front of you, literally since they have no mechanism for adjusting the angle they shoot at.

-The big guns are awesome and I would relish the chance to blow a reaper out of the sky in MP with them, but they would probably be an easy target for the reapers and you can't just build those facilities and weapon installations in the middle of a war where the enemies have population data for all of your planets and are hitting them. The reason this isn't a problem with the crucible is because its construction site, the scientists, the ships, the dry docks, they are all mobile so if Alliance gets word Reapers are searching for them, they can move the crucible project into space between the clusters. The reason the krogan site wasn't destroyed is because Cerberus just activated it to hit Alliance ships, or to help the Alliance according to my theories that TIM was resisting them on some level.

-Resources, it would probably take more than six months to build enough dreadnoughts and as the war dragged on resources would become more and more scarce. The only reason the crucible was built in the time it was was because all of the races were putting a concerted effort towards building that one "ship". If we had unlimited resources I would agree with you but we don't and the resources grow exponentially more scarce as the war drags on. We are in a war of attrition against an enemy who does not tire, who does not have a supply line. We cannot outlast them, we can out smart them some of the time but they can destroy entire platoons with just a shot, they are the mecha cthullus and even if we win small victories our resource pools are drained even if we manage to not lose any ships or people in the engagement. And we can't replenish those resources like we could in other, conventional, wars

-Hijacking the Reaper signal to me is far too risky and has too many ways of blowing up in your face. I would much rather assume until proven otherwise that the reapers who have been doing this for probably at least a billion years would have encountered this problem before and be able to override any attempt to hijack their servants. The only benefit that would be a war crime that indoctrination  hijacking tech could have would have is after the Reapers are gone in destroy, use that tech to help the people whose minds were shattered by indoctrination but haven't become husks yet.

We know that your ideas would work in theory, but the galaxy doesn't have the resources or time to implement them and the Reaper signal is just holding the firework waiting for it to blow up in my honest opinion. Maybe its because I'm a hopeless paragon, 'cept for destroy and renegade interrupts, but I do believe that we have to fight to retain our culture and values, not just to survive, which is why I wouldn't use indoctrination tech.

#359
The_Crazy_Hand

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Sajuro wrote...

-I always thought the tuchunka bomb was more like an atomic bomb than planet destroyer, unless of course you are talking about something else. The main issue with the bomb I'm thinking about is mobility, getting it into battle against the reapers without putting reaper bait on it (reaper nip)


The way I imagine it is as such:
-Send fleets to meet reapers outside all homeworlds at once.
-Have the distance be just outside blast range
-Deploy the bombs via a coordinated effort to do it in all areas at the same time (so that thee reapers can't adapt until it is too late)
-Protect the ships with the bombs the way the crucible was protected

On the off chance that the bombs get hit, the blast will still kill a good number of reapers, it'll just take some of the fleets with it, but it shouldn't happen.  And while this won't kill them off outright, it'll seriously thin their ranks.


Sajuro wrote... -My issue with this is resources unless we are in the universe where the crucible doesn't exist, even then do you think we have enough resources to put a set of cannons on every thanix ready ship? They also seem to have a disadvantage that they can only shoot in one direction which means if you want to put multiple thannix's on a dreadnaught, you either have to put them all facing forward or only be able to use your cannon if the enemy is right in front of you, literally since they have no mechanism for adjusting the angle they shoot at.


Actually, that works better than you might think.  It allows the pilot to shoot where he is aiming and/or eliminates the need for a co-pilot, which means that much less crew is needed per ship.  If you don't believe me, one needs only to look to WWII history, where the gun was changed in just such a way and it increased combat effectiveness.  Mind you, this was for single pilot aircraft, but the elimination of the need for a co-pilot definitely helps.

As far as resources, if they did this instead of the crucible, they'd have more than enough.

Sajuro wrote... -The big guns are awesome and I would relish the chance to blow a reaper out of the sky in MP with them, but they would probably be an easy target for the reapers and you can't just build those facilities and weapon installations in the middle of a war where the enemies have population data for all of your planets and are hitting them. The reason this isn't a problem with the crucible is because its construction site, the scientists, the ships, the dry docks, they are all mobile so if Alliance gets word Reapers are searching for them, they can move the crucible project into space between the clusters. The reason the krogan site wasn't destroyed is because Cerberus just activated it to hit Alliance ships, or to help the Alliance according to my theories that TIM was resisting them on some level.


This is true, anything that can be used to destroy them can also be destroyed.  What matters most is kill-death ratio.  If each big gun kills 4 capitol ships and 16 destroyers before going down, it's pretty safe.  Whereas if only 1 in 4 will kill a destroyer, then yeah I can see this being a problem.

Sajuro wrote... -Resources, it would probably take more than six months to build enough dreadnoughts and as the war dragged on resources would become more and more scarce. The only reason the crucible was built in the time it was was because all of the races were putting a concerted effort towards building that one "ship". If we had unlimited resources I would agree with you but we don't and the resources grow exponentially more scarce as the war drags on. We are in a war of attrition against an enemy who does not tire, who does not have a supply line. We cannot outlast them, we can out smart them some of the time but they can destroy entire platoons with just a shot, they are the mecha cthullus and even if we win small victories our resource pools are drained even if we manage to not lose any ships or people in the engagement. And we can't replenish those resources like we could in other, conventional, wars


Well the timespan of the events of ME3 seems to be at least 6 months anyway.  Also, while resources will dwindle as the war drags on, so will the number of reapers.  Not to mention if a reaper is completely destroyed, it can be safely salvaged w/o fear of indoctrination, although it may require some meticulus scanning to be sure.

As far as their strengths, you are correct.  But you are forgetting their weaknesses.  They do have supply lines, but not the same kind.  They need slaughterships and husk transports, and materials for repairing themselves and making new occulii(although we don't know where they get these), and materials, for that matter, for building new husk transports and slaughterships.

And while they can replenish their numbers, it's slow, takes forever, and they have a limited ability to do this.  It takes millions just to make a destroyer, and 100s of millions for a capitol ship.  And anyone they kill outright, or indoctrinate (including the ones turned straight into husks) can NOT be used for this purpose.  So for each reaper killed, they, for all intents and purposes, hav suffered a permanent loss.  They recover maybe 1 capitol ship per cycle, and maybe 5-10 destroyers, but not much more than that.  Contrast this with organics and especially synthetics, which can much easier and more rapidly replenish their numbers.

There's also the fact that they are as advanced today as they will be in 100 billion years.  So if the war takes a long time, their opponent may come up with inventions meanwhile they themselves do not.  While they are advanced enough to make this a minor weakness, it is still relevent.

Sajuro wrote...  -Hijacking the Reaper signal to me is far too risky and has too many ways of blowing up in your face. I would much rather assume until proven otherwise that the reapers who have been doing this for probably at least a billion years would have encountered this problem before and be able to override any attempt to hijack their servants. The only benefit that would be a war crime that indoctrination  hijacking tech could have would have is after the Reapers are gone in destroy, use that tech to help the people whose minds were shattered by indoctrination but haven't become husks yet.

We know that your ideas would work in theory, but the galaxy doesn't have the resources or time to implement them and the Reaper signal is just holding the firework waiting for it to blow up in my honest opinion. Maybe its because I'm a hopeless paragon, 'cept for destroy and renegade interrupts, but I do believe that we have to fight to retain our culture and values, not just to survive, which is why I wouldn't use indoctrination tech.


It's possible, but I'd at least field test it.  Worst that'll happen is it just won't work.  It won't exactly backfire.  As for culture, yeah I hear ya, but you may be relieved to know that war being based on pragmatism hasn't impacted our culture in such ways IRL.  I'd feel much more guilty about not saving the livs that could have been saved by it, than the supposed ethics.

Modifié par The_Crazy_Hand, 16 juillet 2012 - 02:57 .


#360
alienatedflea

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conventional victory is sooo possible if we got will smith and jeff goldblum to go into the mother ship and download a virus to knock out their sheilds >.<

you are only talking about if we focus fire the reapers then we could inflict some losses on the reapers side...too bad the FACT is reaper weapons cut through ships like butter...we simply can not take even one hit from a reaper...

NO!!! Conventional victory is NOT possible!!

I swear all these IT people switch to CV theory...

#361
incinerator950

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Possible, but not likely in the games scenario. We've gone over this time, and time again.

#362
krasnoarmeets

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alienatedflea wrote...

conventional victory is sooo possible if we got will smith and jeff goldblum to go into the mother ship and download a virus to knock out their sheilds >.<

you are only talking about if we focus fire the reapers then we could inflict some losses on the reapers side...too bad the FACT is reaper weapons cut through ships like butter...we simply can not take even one hit from a reaper...

NO!!! Conventional victory is NOT possible!!

I swear all these IT people switch to CV theory...


Not strictly true. The dreadnought facing off the capital ship when earth is invaded does absorb a couple of hits. Reapers have weight of numbers on their side for the most part. If the capital ships were a lot less numerous then maybe.

#363
AlanC9

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The_Crazy_Hand wrote...
As far as their strengths, you are correct.  But you are forgetting their weaknesses.  They do have supply lines, but not the same kind.  They need slaughterships and husk transports, and materials for repairing themselves and making new occulii(although we don't know where they get these), and materials, for that matter, for building new husk transports and slaughterships.


Don't confuse "need" with "want". While slaughterships and husk transports are nice for the Reapers to have, there's no reason to think the Reapers need to engage in a lot of production to win. They've already got the more powerful fleet. As for repair materials, we don't know what they need. Sovereign got along for millennia without a base, so either Reaper parts don't wear out or they can make new ones themselves.

If the Citadel fleets ever amassed enough strength to threaten the Reapers, the Reapers' obvious next move would be to simply write off their ground forces and cruise around blowing up planets from space until the Citadel economy collapses and the fleets starve. Citadel fleets can't counter this since they have no ability to make the Reapers stand and fight (the Crucible excepted, but this is a thread about conventional strategy). The downside for the Reapers, of course, is that this results in a relatively poor harvest.

#364
dirty console peasant

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AlanC9 wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...
As far as their strengths, you are correct.  But you are forgetting their weaknesses.  They do have supply lines, but not the same kind.  They need slaughterships and husk transports, and materials for repairing themselves and making new occulii(although we don't know where they get these), and materials, for that matter, for building new husk transports and slaughterships.


Don't confuse "need" with "want". While slaughterships and husk transports are nice for the Reapers to have, there's no reason to think the Reapers need to engage in a lot of production to win. They've already got the more powerful fleet. As for repair materials, we don't know what they need. Sovereign got along for millennia without a base, so either Reaper parts don't wear out or they can make new ones themselves.

If the Citadel fleets ever amassed enough strength to threaten the Reapers, the Reapers' obvious next move would be to simply write off their ground forces and cruise around blowing up planets from space until the Citadel economy collapses and the fleets starve. Citadel fleets can't counter this since they have no ability to make the Reapers stand and fight (the Crucible excepted, but this is a thread about conventional strategy). The downside for the Reapers, of course, is that this results in a relatively poor harvest.

The reapers actually do "need" to have a good harvest, because their only goal is to "preserve" the races before they are lost to time.  Total bull**** in my opinion,  once they are in reaper form they are no longer the species that they were origionally.

#365
The_Crazy_Hand

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AlanC9 wrote...
Don't confuse "need" with "want". While slaughterships and husk transports are nice for the Reapers to have, there's no reason to think the Reapers need to engage in a lot of production to win. They've already got the more powerful fleet. As for repair materials, we don't know what they need. Sovereign got along for millennia without a base, so either Reaper parts don't wear out or they can make new ones themselves.

If the Citadel fleets ever amassed enough strength to threaten the Reapers, the Reapers' obvious next move would be to simply write off their ground forces and cruise around blowing up planets from space until the Citadel economy collapses and the fleets starve. Citadel fleets can't counter this since they have no ability to make the Reapers stand and fight (the Crucible excepted, but this is a thread about conventional strategy). The downside for the Reapers, of course, is that this results in a relatively poor harvest.


Speaking purely pragmatically and disregarding the fact that part of their goal is to make more reapers, we can assert that they CAN abandon those, yes.

BUT it will create other problems for them.  If they abandon husk transports then it sacrifices part of the advantage that huskification gives them.  Having them allows them to move husks from nearly dead or dead areas to places that they are more needed.  They can always create more husks, but then they need to create more Dragon's Teeth, which will take time and resources.

And as for slaughterships, abandoning these, while it will allow them to focus more on combat, it also sacrifices their ability to replenish their numbers.  Not to mention that abandoning them will allow their enemies to destroy them with no resistence, as they will remain ungaurded.  This creates the problem that they have to rebuild them, or never recoup ANY losses.  If they recoup them sooner, they run the risk of being discovered by species that are supposed to be in the next cycle, if they don't, they bog themselves down in the next cycle.

So while you are teechnically correct, the fact remains that w/o these things, they will cost themselves.

And if the reapers focused on orbital strikes, thy'd be leaving themselves vulnerable to ambush.  That's probably why they've only been known to do it with small colonies.  It requirs looking at the ground and very much NOT watching your back.  It's impractical for anything but specific targets or small populations.

Modifié par The_Crazy_Hand, 16 juillet 2012 - 05:04 .


#366
Conniving_Eagle

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Andromidius wrote...

Conventional victory was impossible for the North Vietnamese Army against the Americans as well.

So was conventional victory for the Revolutionaries against the Red Coats during the American War of Independance.

I wonder who won both of those conflicts. Both using something called 'unconventional tactics'... Hmm, let me have a think about that one for a moment...


I support conventional victory, but those are poor examples.
Conventional victory may have been impossible for the latter of your examples, but the former were conventional enemies. The Reapers are not conventional enemies.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 16 juillet 2012 - 05:03 .


#367
Ticonderoga117

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Conniving_Eagle wrote...
I support conventional victory, but those are poor examples.
Conventional victory may have been impossible for the latter of your examples, but the former were conventional enemies. The Reapers are not conventional enemies.


They're like terminators... and oh look, Humans beat them too in the fiction.

#368
Conniving_Eagle

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...
I support conventional victory, but those are poor examples.
Conventional victory may have been impossible for the latter of your examples, but the former were conventional enemies. The Reapers are not conventional enemies.


They're like terminators... and oh look, Humans beat them too in the fiction.


That's atleast better. I'm still hoping for conventional victory DLC. Perhaps if this Leviathan is a Reaper it will give us Reaper technology, let us know more about their weaknesses, etc. It may be blind optimism, but I don't care.

#369
incinerator950

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krasnoarmeets wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

conventional victory is sooo possible if we got will smith and jeff goldblum to go into the mother ship and download a virus to knock out their sheilds >.<

you are only talking about if we focus fire the reapers then we could inflict some losses on the reapers side...too bad the FACT is reaper weapons cut through ships like butter...we simply can not take even one hit from a reaper...

NO!!! Conventional victory is NOT possible!!

I swear all these IT people switch to CV theory...


Not strictly true. The dreadnought facing off the capital ship when earth is invaded does absorb a couple of hits. Reapers have weight of numbers on their side for the most part. If the capital ships were a lot less numerous then maybe.


To put it lightly, the Reapers had over six Hundred Capital ships over Earth alone.  This isn't counting their various drones and Destroyer Escorts.  The Galaxy barely has a hundred Dreadnoughts, most of which were destroyed by the end of the war.  It takes a largely and off proportion of Cruisers and Frigates to overwhelm a Reaper, and we can see by a mix of all endings you simply do not have the vessels and production to match the Reapers.  If you combine slides from different endings, you can clearly see the Reapers are still harvesting other worlds, with impunity. 

Again, Conventional Victory is possible, its just that it is not going to happen in this story.  You do not have the preparation, you do not have the war materials.  You do not have numbers, or a technological balance between your enemy.  Your lines and years of attrition have been measured, and your estimated expectancy of galactic survival is around a century.  The galactic Economy is guaranteed to collapse by the end of a single year. 

#370
The_Crazy_Hand

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Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...
I support conventional victory, but those are poor examples.
Conventional victory may have been impossible for the latter of your examples, but the former were conventional enemies. The Reapers are not conventional enemies.


They're like terminators... and oh look, Humans beat them too in the fiction.


That's atleast better. I'm still hoping for conventional victory DLC. Perhaps if this Leviathan is a Reaper it will give us Reaper technology, let us know more about their weaknesses, etc. It may be blind optimism, but I don't care.


I'm curious about that too, but even if it does, I won't buy it unlss John Riccitiello really does end up fired as rumored.

#371
Sajuro

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The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

I'm sorry but your plan for conventional victory relies on too many ifs and too much luck in my opinion. Can we get all the fleets mobilized to deploy the bombs, can the big guns take out four capital ships before being destroyed, can we get all of the dreadnaughts built? Your ideas for conventional victory seem to occur in ideal circumstances and while I don't like to attribute things to will power, the will power of the population to keep fighting, the Reapers greatest two weapons are fear and despair (and their numbers). The Reapers three greatest weapons are fear, despair, and their numbers (and thei -hit to stop monty python joke-). All kidding aside, the Reapers have the weapons of fear and despair. To civilians they are the void of hopelessness in form, you will always have people trying to appease the invaders but the Reapers cannot be appeased, their goal as far as we're concerned is the extermination of all advanced life, even with the knowledge they want to perserve races, I don't think they would mind scuttling a cycle if they thought they couldn't harvest. Back to my thought, If the war drags on like it would with a conventional war, people will start losing hope and either committing suicide or trying to join the Reapers or just going to sleep one night and not waking up.

#372
The_Crazy_Hand

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Sajuro wrote...

I'm sorry but your plan for conventional victory relies on too many ifs and too much luck in my opinion. Can we get all the fleets mobilized to deploy the bombs, can the big guns take out four capital ships before being destroyed, can we get all of the dreadnaughts built? Your ideas for conventional victory seem to occur in ideal circumstances and while I don't like to attribute things to will power, the will power of the population to keep fighting, the Reapers greatest two weapons are fear and despair (and their numbers). The Reapers three greatest weapons are fear, despair, and their numbers (and thei -hit to stop monty python joke-). All kidding aside, the Reapers have the weapons of fear and despair. To civilians they are the void of hopelessness in form, you will always have people trying to appease the invaders but the Reapers cannot be appeased, their goal as far as we're concerned is the extermination of all advanced life, even with the knowledge they want to perserve races, I don't think they would mind scuttling a cycle if they thought they couldn't harvest. Back to my thought, If the war drags on like it would with a conventional war, people will start losing hope and either committing suicide or trying to join the Reapers or just going to sleep one night and not waking up.


Good points as well, though I would say my ideas don't require idealism, I will admit that the unknowns will determine whether or not they work.

But yeah, I see your point about people trying to appease them and stuff.  Though you must admit at least that if we had a military less idiotic in size, that it would be much more of a possibility.

#373
AlanC9

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The_Crazy_Hand wrote...
Speaking purely pragmatically and disregarding the fact that part of their goal is to make more reapers, we can assert that they CAN abandon those, yes.

BUT it will create other problems for them.  If they abandon husk transports then it sacrifices part of the advantage that huskification gives them.  Having them allows them to move husks from nearly dead or dead areas to places that they are more needed.  They can always create more husks, but then they need to create more Dragon's Teeth, which will take time and resources.


But what husks give you is an advantage while harvesting. If you're just wrecking planets from space, you don't need husks.

And as for slaughterships, abandoning these, while it will allow them to focus more on combat, it also sacrifices their ability to replenish their numbers.  Not to mention that abandoning them will allow their enemies to destroy them with no resistence, as they will remain ungaurded.  This creates the problem that they have to rebuild them, or never recoup ANY losses.  


You abandon the planets, not the ships. Take the slaughterships into deep space until things calm down.

And if the reapers focused on orbital strikes, thy'd be leaving themselves vulnerable to ambush.  That's probably why they've only been known to do it with small colonies.  It requirs looking at the ground and very much NOT watching your back.  It's impractical for anything but specific targets or small populations.


This doesn't make much sense.

#374
Dusen

Dusen
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Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Conventional victory was impossible for the North Vietnamese Army against the Americans as well.

So was conventional victory for the Revolutionaries against the Red Coats during the American War of Independance.

I wonder who won both of those conflicts. Both using something called 'unconventional tactics'... Hmm, let me have a think about that one for a moment...


I support conventional victory, but those are poor examples.
Conventional victory may have been impossible for the latter of your examples, but the former were conventional enemies. The Reapers are not conventional enemies.

You (like a lot of people on here) must be thinking that "unconventional tactics" only refers to doomsday weapons like the crucible when this is just not true. Guerilla tactics are highly effective against larger, and even more advanced enemies if conducted appropriately. . .unfortunately, Hackett only knows how to line his ships up and charge the enemy head-on. Quite the tactician . . .Image IPB

#375
The_Crazy_Hand

The_Crazy_Hand
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AlanC9 wrote...

But what husks give you is an advantage while harvesting. If you're just wrecking planets from space, you don't need husks.


True

AlanC9 wrote.. 

You abandon the planets, not the ships. Take the slaughterships into deep space until things calm down.


I can see this working only if they're going pure orbital strike.

AlanC9 wrote..  

This doesn't make much sense.


It does actually, because orbital strikes only effect populations on the surface, not those attacking you from space.

Dusen wrote...

You (like a lot of people on here) must be thinking that "unconventional tactics" only refers to doomsday weapons like the crucible when this is just not true. Guerilla tactics are highly effective against larger, and even more advanced enemies if conducted appropriately. . .unfortunately, Hackett only knows how to line his ships up and charge the enemy head-on. Quite the tactician . . .Image IPB

 

Yeah the fleet captain kept bugging him about this, to which he defended it under the guise of actual tactics being too-military-ey.  Go figure.

Modifié par The_Crazy_Hand, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:40 .