541 réponses à ce sujet

[Dusen]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Yeah the fleet captain kept bugging him about this, to which he defended it under the guise of actual tactics being too-military-ey.  Go figure.

Yep, that reminds me of this completely unrelated story of a video game developer refusing to place an end-boss fight in what was supposed to be their magnum opus because the idea was too "video-gamey". Instead they attempted (and failed miserably) to inject a little unrelated philosophy into the narrative. 

Modifié par Dusen, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:46 .

[Sajuro]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I'm sorry but your plan for conventional victory relies on too many ifs and too much luck in my opinion. Can we get all the fleets mobilized to deploy the bombs, can the big guns take out four capital ships before being destroyed, can we get all of the dreadnaughts built? Your ideas for conventional victory seem to occur in ideal circumstances and while I don't like to attribute things to will power, the will power of the population to keep fighting, the Reapers greatest two weapons are fear and despair (and their numbers). The Reapers three greatest weapons are fear, despair, and their numbers (and thei -hit to stop monty python joke-). All kidding aside, the Reapers have the weapons of fear and despair. To civilians they are the void of hopelessness in form, you will always have people trying to appease the invaders but the Reapers cannot be appeased, their goal as far as we're concerned is the extermination of all advanced life, even with the knowledge they want to perserve races, I don't think they would mind scuttling a cycle if they thought they couldn't harvest. Back to my thought, If the war drags on like it would with a conventional war, people will start losing hope and either committing suicide or trying to join the Reapers or just going to sleep one night and not waking up.

Good points as well, though I would say my ideas don't require idealism, I will admit that the unknowns will determine whether or not they work.

But yeah, I see your point about people trying to appease them and stuff.  Though you must admit at least that if we had a military less idiotic in size, that it would be much more of a possibility.

And if I had the chance to sleep with the woman who plays Ziva David on NCIS, but lets not talk about things that are unlikely to happen.
I understand that the crucible is a giant unknown that we pour all of our resources into, we don't know what it does, we don't know what the thing required to start it is for most of the game,  and we don't know where it came from so it could just be a reaper trap. But I think the reason the races went with it is because when everything seemed hopeless, Liara came from Mars bringing news of the Crucible, the one weapon said to be capable of defeating the Reapers and saving everyone, don't tell me you wouldn't be sorely tempted to jump at that life raft if the rest of the galaxy was sinking around you. Maybe if Liara had never found the crucible they would have tried your strategy, but they found something left by the race the majority of the galaxy still thinks of as the precursors, they know we don't have a good chance and the Crucible is an all or nothing bet that we can stall until its done and hopefully beat the Reapers.

Also, thank you for being polite dood

[AlanC9]

Dusen wrote...
Guerilla tactics are highly effective against larger, and even more advanced enemies if conducted appropriately. . .unfortunately, Hackett only knows how to line his ships up and charge the enemy head-on. Quite the tactician . . .

The really unfortunate thing is that the Reapers would be the ones who could use guerilla tactics effectively.

[Sajuro]

Dusen wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Yeah the fleet captain kept bugging him about this, to which he defended it under the guise of actual tactics being too-military-ey.  Go figure.

Yep, that reminds me of this completely unrelated story of a video game developer refusing to place an end-boss fight in what was supposed to be their magnum opus because the idea was too "video-gamey". Instead they attempted (and failed miserably) to inject a little unrelated philosophy into the narrative. 

To be fair, making TIM into monster TIM for the sake of a fight would have been ":mellow:....wut" worthy

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Sajuro wrote...

And if I had the chance to sleep with the woman who plays Ziva David on NCIS, but lets not talk about things that are unlikely to happen.
I understand that the crucible is a giant unknown that we pour all of our resources into, we don't know what it does, we don't know what the thing required to start it is for most of the game,  and we don't know where it came from so it could just be a reaper trap. But I think the reason the races went with it is because when everything seemed hopeless, Liara came from Mars bringing news of the Crucible, the one weapon said to be capable of defeating the Reapers and saving everyone, don't tell me you wouldn't be sorely tempted to jump at that life raft if the rest of the galaxy was sinking around you. Maybe if Liara had never found the crucible they would have tried your strategy, but they found something left by the race the majority of the galaxy still thinks of as the precursors, they know we don't have a good chance and the Crucible is an all or nothing bet that we can stall until its done and hopefully beat the Reapers.

Also, thank you for being polite dood

You have a good point, from a pure military perspective, it looks like folly, but I can see from a more emotional perspective, at a time when people are far more likely to get emotional, how the crucible would be tempting.

Though I still say mass turian bomb production could turn the tide if nothing else, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Joccaren]

spiriticon wrote...

People seem to think the Alliance has an infinte number of cruisers and ships that they can fit with Thanix Cannons to save the day. It really doesn't matter how many Alliance Ships you need to bring down one Reaper because at the end of the day, it's stated very clearly that they 'vastly outnumber' us. Even if you can win on a 1 vs 1 situation (lol), the Reapers still have forces to spare.

Your evidence for this is?
The only hard numbers we have is that there are 50,000 ships in the Quarian Flotilla of varying sorts, and even then that's pre the battle with the Geth. The highest estimates of Reaper forces place them at about 20,000 Capital Ships and 60,000 Destroyers. They outnumber the individual Alliance Fleet, but the combined fleets of every race in the Galaxy more than likely outnumber them. In a 1 to 1 ratio victory, we would likely win.

Then we come to the argument of 'well number's isn't everything!'. We can use <insert clever tactic> here to beat them. And I go 'Yeah sure'. The Reapers, who have fought organics for billions of years before us and absorbed all their knowledge and history and are AI beyond our comprehension, could probably beat us at the clever game. We need a tactic they we can guarantee they have never seen before in billions of years of constant warfare. Anybody can find proof of said tactic? Do our galactic records even go back that far? Hell we don't even know much about the Protheans war tactics (which failed them even though they were a militant species) until Javik came along and that's a single cycle back. It's safe to assume the Reapers will adapt and be OK.

To be fair they likely didn't have that many tactics fighting them in previous cycles. They cut of the government and closed down the Relays. Any fleets they faced they would have Zerg Rushed instantly with 100* their numbers, with those fleets having no hope for reinforcements thanks to the closed relays. The Reapers relied heavily on that tactic, so far as we can tell, and in taking that away we have already forced them to fight a war it is unlikely they have fought in over 1 billion years.

The best thing you can do for a conventional victory is to put on your plot armor, go Rambo, and win the damn war ignoring all the plotholes about the Reapers being stronger than us, more vastly numbered than us, smarter than us, indoctrination etc etc etc

You mean like everyone does for the Catalyst? Or for the Reapers defeating us at Earth with a much smaller force than we have? Or the plot armour the Reapers have against Thanix?
Yeah, there's a ton of plot holes, plot armour and other nonesense already in ME3. A bit more really wouldn't make that much of a difference.

That is not much of a better ending than BioWares except that it flavoured with a more rainbows and unicorns touch. As a video gamer myself, it brings more satisfaction for sure. But it's not theoretically better.

Hardly. How is Millions of deaths and years of war more sunshine and unicorns than Synthesis?
Seriously, the sunshine and unicorns are there in the current endings. Conventional just adds in the idea of free will.
And to be honest, nothing is theoretically better. As ME is a product its quite arguable that whatever satisfies the customer more is better, and in that sense Conventional victory is the better option. Taking everything into account though there really is no right or wrong answer in this regard as its largely subjective.

[AlanC9]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

AlanC9 wrote..  

This doesn't make much sense.

It does actually, because orbital strikes only effect populations on the surface, not those attacking you from space.

But if the Reapers detect more than a couple enemy ships in orbit, they FTL out and attack a different system. The Citadel forces can't catch them before they hit the next system since Reaper ships are far faster and have no fuel needs.

Citadel forces can guard a couple of systems, sure, depending on relative force levels. But not all of them.

[Thore2k10]

nah, TIM was never the boss fight material. he was always the invisible power behind the throne, scheming and plotting. I was expecting to be able to expose him somehow... so everyone could see how wrong his ideals were and how "evil" he is. That would have been his end.

Did expect to be allowed to kick Harby to kingdom come though...

[Sajuro]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

And if I had the chance to sleep with the woman who plays Ziva David on NCIS, but lets not talk about things that are unlikely to happen.
I understand that the crucible is a giant unknown that we pour all of our resources into, we don't know what it does, we don't know what the thing required to start it is for most of the game,  and we don't know where it came from so it could just be a reaper trap. But I think the reason the races went with it is because when everything seemed hopeless, Liara came from Mars bringing news of the Crucible, the one weapon said to be capable of defeating the Reapers and saving everyone, don't tell me you wouldn't be sorely tempted to jump at that life raft if the rest of the galaxy was sinking around you. Maybe if Liara had never found the crucible they would have tried your strategy, but they found something left by the race the majority of the galaxy still thinks of as the precursors, they know we don't have a good chance and the Crucible is an all or nothing bet that we can stall until its done and hopefully beat the Reapers.

Also, thank you for being polite dood

You have a good point, from a pure military perspective, it looks like folly, but I can see from a more emotional perspective, at a time when people are far more likely to get emotional, how the crucible would be tempting.

Though I still say mass turian bomb production could turn the tide if nothing else, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

one more point
I would say that the Turian Mass Bombs would be worth quite a few luls if planted under major cities during the invasion
Reaper: -lands on thessia- this should be easy -bomb blows up city begins collapsing underneath it- oh what the -dies-

[warlock22]

That's all I wanted OP, was a way to win conventionally. Win on our terms as Shepard has always done and has always fought for. And to be able to reunite with LI and crew at the end. As you said Shepard has built a career out of doing the impossible, Shepard has beaten impossible odds in the other games and walked out a hero and reunited with his/her crew, Shepard can do it again. The endings we have now go against character and story consistency.

Modifié par warlock22, 16 juillet 2012 - 01:23 .

[robertthebard]

warlock22 wrote...

That's all I wanted OP, was a way to win conventionally. Win on our terms as Shepard has always done and has always fought for. And to be able to reunite with LI and crew at the end. As you said Shepard has built a career out of doing the impossible, Shepard has beaten impossible odds in the other games and walked out a hero and reunited with his/her crew, Shepard can do it again. The endings we have now go against character and story consistency.

In ME 1, it was 1 Reaper, and it was costly to win.

In ME 2, it was one Collector Base, and it was a PITA to get to, but really, once you were there, there wasn't anything remotely impossible about it, just really hard.

In ME 3, it was thousands of Reapers.  The question then becomes, what worlds are being sacrificed so that other worlds can be "focus fired"?  Because you're not going to be able to save them all.  Reaper Red Beam of Ultimate Destructo Power is going to blast holes in lots of ships, so it's not like you can divide and conquer, you'll have to be aggressively attacking on a system by system basis, and then it comes down to do you have enough resources to wage this campaign.  As written, I quit in London now, that's game over as far as I'm concerned.  However, even if we got an option to actually go conventional, and win, who's left standing.  Virmire shows us that we aren't invincible, and, quite frankly, it's not going to be over in 10 years, or 20.  It could well take a century, or more, to win.  What's going to be left after that is questionable, and frankly, after 100 years of war, how much resolve are the people that are still fighting, since Krogan and Asari will easily have lifespans to see it through?

It's a stretch to think that Shep and the Normandy will still be there when it's over.

[dirty console peasant]

robertthebard wrote...

warlock22 wrote...

That's all I wanted OP, was a way to win conventionally. Win on our terms as Shepard has always done and has always fought for. And to be able to reunite with LI and crew at the end. As you said Shepard has built a career out of doing the impossible, Shepard has beaten impossible odds in the other games and walked out a hero and reunited with his/her crew, Shepard can do it again. The endings we have now go against character and story consistency.

In ME 1, it was 1 Reaper, and it was costly to win.

In ME 2, it was one Collector Base, and it was a PITA to get to, but really, once you were there, there wasn't anything remotely impossible about it, just really hard.

In ME 3, it was thousands of Reapers.  The question then becomes, what worlds are being sacrificed so that other worlds can be "focus fired"?  Because you're not going to be able to save them all.  Reaper Red Beam of Ultimate Destructo Power is going to blast holes in lots of ships, so it's not like you can divide and conquer, you'll have to be aggressively attacking on a system by system basis, and then it comes down to do you have enough resources to wage this campaign.  As written, I quit in London now, that's game over as far as I'm concerned.  However, even if we got an option to actually go conventional, and win, who's left standing.  Virmire shows us that we aren't invincible, and, quite frankly, it's not going to be over in 10 years, or 20.  It could well take a century, or more, to win.  What's going to be left after that is questionable, and frankly, after 100 years of war, how much resolve are the people that are still fighting, since Krogan and Asari will easily have lifespans to see it through?

It's a stretch to think that Shep and the Normandy will still be there when it's over.

The most intense fighting would probably take place over the first few years, during which time the normandy would still be there with Shepard, Edi and Joker (Shepard to be awsome and command the fleets (Hackett is a moron), Edi to hack Reapers, and Joker to be the best damn pilot that exists)  Shepard's LI would also be onboard for moral support and at least in liara's case to help provide intel on reaper locations and weaknesses.  Yes the moral support would be very important, as Shepard is already losing it during the main game.

[N7Gold]

If these are true, why weren't these details taken advantage of in-game instead of mentioned in the codex? And how were these vulnerabilities noticed and discovered by the in game characters? As I recall, it took the entire Alliance fleet and the Destiny Ascension (if you saved it) and the Normandy to take down Sovereign, Tuchanka's biggest Thresher Maw to defeat the Reaper guarding the device that cures the genophage, and all the Migrant Fleet's guns on the Reaper in Rannoch controlling the Geth.

Modifié par N7Gold, 16 juillet 2012 - 02:20 .

[robertthebard]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

warlock22 wrote...

That's all I wanted OP, was a way to win conventionally. Win on our terms as Shepard has always done and has always fought for. And to be able to reunite with LI and crew at the end. As you said Shepard has built a career out of doing the impossible, Shepard has beaten impossible odds in the other games and walked out a hero and reunited with his/her crew, Shepard can do it again. The endings we have now go against character and story consistency.

In ME 1, it was 1 Reaper, and it was costly to win.

In ME 2, it was one Collector Base, and it was a PITA to get to, but really, once you were there, there wasn't anything remotely impossible about it, just really hard.

In ME 3, it was thousands of Reapers.  The question then becomes, what worlds are being sacrificed so that other worlds can be "focus fired"?  Because you're not going to be able to save them all.  Reaper Red Beam of Ultimate Destructo Power is going to blast holes in lots of ships, so it's not like you can divide and conquer, you'll have to be aggressively attacking on a system by system basis, and then it comes down to do you have enough resources to wage this campaign.  As written, I quit in London now, that's game over as far as I'm concerned.  However, even if we got an option to actually go conventional, and win, who's left standing.  Virmire shows us that we aren't invincible, and, quite frankly, it's not going to be over in 10 years, or 20.  It could well take a century, or more, to win.  What's going to be left after that is questionable, and frankly, after 100 years of war, how much resolve are the people that are still fighting, since Krogan and Asari will easily have lifespans to see it through?

It's a stretch to think that Shep and the Normandy will still be there when it's over.

The most intense fighting would probably take place over the first few years, during which time the normandy would still be there with Shepard, Edi and Joker (Shepard to be awsome and command the fleets (Hackett is a moron), Edi to hack Reapers, and Joker to be the best damn pilot that exists)  Shepard's LI would also be onboard for moral support and at least in liara's case to help provide intel on reaper locations and weaknesses.  Yes the moral support would be very important, as Shepard is already losing it during the main game.

The biggest issue with conventional though is still going to be time frame/resources.  We don't have infinite ships, and every victory is going to cost us some of what we do have.  It would, for example, really suck to get all the way to the last Reaper, and just run out of stuff to throw at it.  Irony aside, it would also be something that could happen.  But even with this, the odds of Shep and company being there at the end, barring Liara, since she's still a baby in Asari years, everyone else that didn't die of old age by then would likely have died to something else.

[Deltateam Elcor]

N7Gold wrote...

If these are true, why weren't these details taken advantage of in-game instead of mentioned in the codex? And how were these vulnerabilities discovered? As I recall, it took the entire Alliance fleet and the Destiny Ascension (if you saved it) and the Normandy to take down Sovereign, Tuchanka's biggest Thresher Maw to defeat the Reaper guarding the device that cures the genophage, and all the Migrant Fleet's guns on the Reaper in Rannoch controlling the Geth.

Sometimes i think people just lack care in the series to actually have accurate information.

It was the Fifth fleet, with perhaps a few additions.

[spiriticon]

Joccaren wrote...

Your evidence for this is?
The only hard numbers we have is that there are 50,000 ships in the Quarian Flotilla of varying sorts, and even then that's pre the battle with the Geth. The highest estimates of Reaper forces place them at about 20,000 Capital Ships and 60,000 Destroyers. They outnumber the individual Alliance Fleet, but the combined fleets of every race in the Galaxy more than likely outnumber them. In a 1 to 1 ratio victory, we would likely win.

I don't like talking numbers, because estimating Reaper numbers is really a big unknown. I agree that there should be around ~20,000 Sovereign class capital ships for ~20000 cycles. But I feel the number of destroyers are far higher than 60000.

Taking this cycle alone, we have asari, drell, elcor, hanar, human, salarian, turian, volus,
batarian, krogan, quarian , vorcha, rachni, yahg. That makes 14 known species. Minus humans (Capital ship) and yahg (left alone for next cycle), that makes 12 species. If we assume that there are more or less the same number of species in each cycle, that places the Destroyer numbers to be approximately: 12(no.of species) x 20000(number of cycles) = 240000.

20,000 Capital ships and 240000 Destroyers and limitless ground forces seems to be a hell of a lot of Reapers to take on.

Now talking about strength, it is well argued that 4 dreadnoughts can bring down 1 capital ship. That makes 80000 dreadnoughts needed to fight an even battle. Do we even have that many? I have seen arguments that Alliance dreadnoughts number in the hundreds, at the most.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about any assumptions. I'm only trying to be logical about our chances.

To be fair they likely didn't have that many tactics fighting them in previous cycles. They cut of the government and closed down the Relays. Any fleets they faced they would have Zerg Rushed instantly with 100* their numbers, with those fleets having no hope for reinforcements thanks to the closed relays. The Reapers relied heavily on that tactic, so far as we can tell, and in taking that away we have already forced them to fight a war it is unlikely they have fought in over 1 billion years.

While I totally agree that every war is different, saying that we can outsmart the Reapers in conventional warfare is I feel, a bold and overstated sentiment because they absorb the knowledge of every species they harvest. That includes the Protheans. It would not be wrong to assume they have the military knowledge of the Protheans + all the cycles before them. I think it would be far more logical to assume the Reapers would pull a smart tactic on us rather than the other way round.

You mean like everyone does for the Catalyst? Or for the Reapers defeating us at Earth with a much smaller force than we have? Or the plot armour the Reapers have against Thanix?
Yeah, there's a ton of plot holes, plot armour and other nonesense already in ME3. A bit more really wouldn't make that much of a difference.

I don't like the Catalyst. I've always maintained that. But let's not forget why we are upset with the endings and BioWare. Simply because the last 10 minutes is full of plot holes, plot armors and nonsense. By suggesting new endings to them without thinking about it thoroughly and picking it apart critically ourselves will not make a good case for BioWare to think that a conventional ending might have been better.

Hardly. How is Millions of deaths and years of war more sunshine and unicorns than Synthesis?
Seriously, the sunshine and unicorns are there in the current endings. Conventional just adds in the idea of free will. And to be honest, nothing is theoretically better. As ME is a product its quite arguable that whatever satisfies the customer more is better, and in that sense Conventional victory is the better option. Taking everything into account though there really is no right or wrong answer in this regard as its largely subjective.

Agreed on the whole.

Maybe it's because I'm ex-military myself, I feel that a conventional warplan must be watertight to minimise casualties on our side. Handwaving a battle plan just leads to more deaths and disaster on the battlefield. It makes the mark of a bad leader, of which I don't believe Commander Shepard is.

Modifié par spiriticon, 16 juillet 2012 - 03:29 .

[Sajuro]

warlock22 wrote...

That's all I wanted OP, was a way to win conventionally. Win on our terms as Shepard has always done and has always fought for. And to be able to reunite with LI and crew at the end. As you said Shepard has built a career out of doing the impossible, Shepard has beaten impossible odds in the other games and walked out a hero and reunited with his/her crew, Shepard can do it again. The endings we have now go against character and story consistency.

To be fair, Shepard did the impossible in Mass Effect 3, he united the krogans and turians, cured the genophage, made peace between the quarians and geth, destroyed cerberus, and had sex with diana allers. The difference between doing the impossible and what you want is if Shepard jumped out of the citadel and punched Sovereign to death instead of killing Saren Husk

[The_Crazy_Hand]

N7Gold wrote...

If these are true, why weren't these details taken advantage of in-game instead of mentioned in the codex? And how were these vulnerabilities noticed and discovered by the in game characters? As I recall, it took the entire Alliance fleet and the Destiny Ascension (if you saved it) and the Normandy to take down Sovereign, Tuchanka's biggest Thresher Maw to defeat the Reaper guarding the device that cures the genophage, and all the Migrant Fleet's guns on the Reaper in Rannoch controlling the Geth.

That's an easy one:

Bad writing by folks who think video games shouldn't be like video games.

Sajuro wrote...

To be fair, Shepard did the impossible in Mass Effect 3, he united the krogans and turians, cured the genophage, made peace between the quarians and geth, destroyed cerberus, and had sex with diana allers. The difference between doing the impossible and what you want is if Shepard jumped out of the citadel and punched Sovereign to death instead of killing Saren Husk

 

Admit it, that would have been awsome and you know it.  Oh sure it would have made little sense, but sometimes that doesn't matter.

Modifié par The_Crazy_Hand, 16 juillet 2012 - 06:34 .

[Sajuro]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

To be fair, Shepard did the impossible in Mass Effect 3, he united the krogans and turians, cured the genophage, made peace between the quarians and geth, destroyed cerberus, and had sex with diana allers. The difference between doing the impossible and what you want is if Shepard jumped out of the citadel and punched Sovereign to death instead of killing Saren Husk

 

Admit it, that would have been awsome and you know it.  Oh sure it would have made little sense, but sometimes that doesn't matter.

Oh it would be awesome, so would this

But I don't think it counts as 'conventional' victory

[Conniving_Eagle]

Once Sovereign's shields dropped it was destroyed rather quickly by a fleet consisting of cruisers and fighters.

[robertthebard]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Once Sovereign's shields dropped it was destroyed rather quickly by a fleet consisting of cruisers and fighters.

It's amazing what you can do when you can focus fire on a single enemy.  However, your assessment can be off, since Destiny Ascension can be there.  It might not be there as well, but it can be, and just because you see xx ships in a cutscene doesn't mean that that's all that's there.

Here's the problem though, while you're focus firing on one ship to get it's shields down, since Shepard won't be killing a boss husk for every Reaper ship, the other Reapers are free to shoot at which ever vessels they choose.

[MetioricTest]

jijeebo wrote...

Theoretically we can kill reapers.

Doesn't mean we can survive long enough to kill thousands of them in aerial combat, as well as countless ground troops.


If conventional victory was an option the galaxy wouldn't put everything it had into defending the Crucible to make sure it docks safely.

Yes it would.

The reason the crucible went ahead was because the galaxy wasn't willing to create a unified fleet when homeworlds were in danger. The crucible allowed every race to keep their armies and fleets around their homeworlds while still divising a plot to defeat the Reapers.

Nobody was willing to sacrifice their home planet's security for the chance of beating the Reapers conventially

Personally I think it's a stronger story if we accept this. If we deny this and claim the Reapers are literally unstoppable then half of the story becomes pointless. Why was it relevant that the council denied Reaper existence? Their aid would have been meaningless anyway since the Reapers are unstoppable.

Why does it matter whether or not  we help TIM. We're going to die either way,

Etc etc.

If the only possible solution is the crucible Liara found plans to on the floor at the start of the game...then the previous two installments to the story suck.

"We could have defeated them if only...." is a better strory and a better reflection of folly than "We had no chance of beating them at all no matter what but thankfully someone found a magic 'I win' button in our hour of need."

[Quackjack]

SNascimento wrote...

No, it's not.

This is the most in-depth and presentable arguement of all time. Truly, my good man, I am at a lose for words

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Sajuro wrote...

Oh it would be awesome, so would this

But I don't think it counts as 'conventional' victory

True, maybe rather than CV, we should be arguing non-crucible victory,  Thinking about it, using a massive disposal of Turian bombs is also hardly conventional.

Modifié par The_Crazy_Hand, 17 juillet 2012 - 02:05 .

[dirty console peasant]

bump for relevance (Leviathan dlc discussion)