541 réponses à ce sujet

[Eralrik]

Personally i just choose option 4 the Bioware slap in the face option and scrub the galaxy clean and hope another race gets it right and finds Liara's box of info. Personally all the options is a slap in the face to the intelligence of the player base its a turn off your brain and choose an option and don't think about your choice ever because we didn't want to think about it ourselves. Now we'll throw in dlc that will make the ending's even less worth what we wrote in the first place making no sense in the final telling.
Personally I'm done with Mass effect in a whole and waiting for DA3 if they mess that up well I'll find something else to play or give up gaming as a whole.

[Putok]

I figured that given the Normandy could obliterate a Collector cruiser on its own while fighting off a half dozen Occuli while sustaining minimal damage, the combined strength of the fleets of the galaxy would be enough to drive the Reapers back to dark space if upgraded to that level of technology.

I kinda assumed that the plot of ME3 would be getting the fleets upgraded with Normandy/stolen reaper/Collector tech before winning a Pyrrhic victory against the Reapers until I played it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Quarians defeat them in the end. It's the real truth of the matter.

[Ardoreal]

Eralrik wrote...

Personally i just choose option 4 the Bioware slap in the face option and scrub the galaxy clean and hope another race gets it right and finds Liara's box of info. Personally all the options is a slap in the face to the intelligence of the player base its a turn off your brain and choose an option and don't think about your choice ever because we didn't want to think about it ourselves. Now we'll throw in dlc that will make the ending's even less worth what we wrote in the first place making no sense in the final telling.
Personally I'm done with Mass effect in a whole and waiting for DA3 if they mess that up well I'll find something else to play or give up gaming as a whole.

Giving up gaming over that is a bit pessimistic.  I feel that our choices given might have been crappy but the ride up to the end was great.  However, Bioware needs to look at what their actions mean to fans.  One thing that struck me was seeing a behind the scenes look at a Cortana voice acting session.  Marty O'Donnell iterated to Jen Taylor during one particular recording session, the voice dialogue for when Master Chief and Cortana reuinite in Halo 3.  It was iterated specifically that it's a big moment for the fans.  That's just one example of many where they really tried to do something nice "for the fans".  Take a look at Skyrim, and look at some of the behind the scenes material there.  The same sentiment is there with those developers but in different ways.  In Skyrim it's attention to detail and thoughtful art design.  One moment that stuck out for me was at the main story end where you get a really cool "farewell" from all the dragons concluding the main story arc.  It was gratifying to say the least.  It's really just semantics about how they chose to end their games, be it Halo, Elder Scrolls, Portal, etc.  The thing is that I usually walked away gratified that I played.  The games were fulfilling, and despite their flaws they didn't leave that empty feeling at the end like ME3 does.

With Bioware, we don't get a "big moment for the fans", no we get a cheaply photoshopped stock image for Tali.  Or when it comes to learning more about Protheans, we get day 1 DLC.  Wanna know the Reaper origins?  Get some more DLC.  Honestly I find Bioware to be hurtful and inconsiderate.  Conventional victory? If fans ask for it, it'll just be a DLC pack if it looks profitable.  There's a cheat code to get a conventional victory alright, that code just happens to be your credit/debit card number.  Same for getting a full storyline experience. 

Am I getting Leviathan? I don't know, I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford it and I probably will.  Unfortunately for Bioware ME3 is the end of the line.  Whatever new IP or story they try to tell I won't get invested into it because I believe they'll just nickel and dime me on important plot points.  ME2 felt so much different with regards to Lair of the Shadow Broker or Arrival.  Lair, for example didn't explain a major plot point.  Shadow Broker was a "on the sidelines" kind of guy.  Not a central focus of the lore.  Overlord was also great, a small mini-story contained in the universe of Mass Effect that was great fun to play.  Let's also look at Arrival, it added some stuff but it didn't really answer major lore questions.  It was more of a bridge between the two games that was entirely optional.  It felt optional, almost like it didn't matter as we knew Reapers were coming anyway, but buying time was still fun.

Rockstar, Bungie/343 Studios, Bethesda, Valve, Mojang....those developers deserve your attention.  Don't divest from gaming just because Bioware sucks.  Just give your money to them instead.  Hit Bioware/EA where it hurts.  Maybe their CEO should just read forums and twitter, then he'd be able to explain the stock price dropping like a rock.

Modifié par Ardoreal, 26 août 2012 - 11:03 .

[Miphious]

ArchDuck wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

It's not possible because Casey said so.

And that is the only reason.

Exactly. Casey said so.

So the fanboys lap it up.

Nevermind that an optional, additional ending would do them no harm.

If the only way you can gain happiness is by denying others something that in no way hurts you, you're just an a-hole, end of story.

Modifié par Miphious, 26 août 2012 - 11:33 .

[Ledgend1221]

Everyone who denies this is indoctrinated.

[Pitznik]

Miphious wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

It's not possible because Casey said so.

And that is the only reason.

Exactly. Casey said so.

So the fanboys lap it up.

Nevermind that an optional, additional ending would do them no harm.

If the only way you can gain happiness is by denying others something that in no way hurts you, you're just an a-hole, end of story.

Having the possibility of a conventional victory would make an entire Crucible plot pointless and tons of decisions made by important characters really stupid. That is how it would hurt me, that is why you're not getting it.

[DextroDNA]

At the end of all this arguing... a single Reaper capital ship nearly took out the entire Citadel Fleet, and was only stopped when it's shields fell because it was busy mind-controlling someone.

It took the entire Quarian fleet to take down a Destroyer, which is TINY in comparison to a Capital Ship.

It would take around 4 Dreadnoughts keeping up constant fire on a Reaper to take it down, and at the end - only 1 would be left. There are barely any Dreadnoughts left, and you think they have enough to spare 3 for every Reaper? The Reapers cut through ships like a hot knife through butter, their ships are nearly indestructable - and before you star going on about missile and nuclear explosives - they would no **** all in space.

Conventional victory ISN'T possible - deal with it. You could definetley win a battle against a Reaper, hell - even two. But a war against them? Not a chance.

[Miphious]

Pitznik wrote...

Miphious wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

It's not possible because Casey said so.

And that is the only reason.

Exactly. Casey said so.

So the fanboys lap it up.

Nevermind that an optional, additional ending would do them no harm.

If the only way you can gain happiness is by denying others something that in no way hurts you, you're just an a-hole, end of story.

Having the possibility of a conventional victory would make an entire Crucible plot pointless and tons of decisions made by important characters really stupid. That is how it would hurt me, that is why you're not getting it.

So YOU ignore that OPTIONAL ending.

Do you also think gay marriage damages straight marriages? Your argument looks astonishingly similar to theirs. 

Modifié par Miphious, 26 août 2012 - 11:54 .

[Pitznik]

Miphious wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Miphious wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

It's not possible because Casey said so.

And that is the only reason.

Exactly. Casey said so.

So the fanboys lap it up.

Nevermind that an optional, additional ending would do them no harm.

If the only way you can gain happiness is by denying others something that in no way hurts you, you're just an a-hole, end of story.

Having the possibility of a conventional victory would make an entire Crucible plot pointless and tons of decisions made by important characters really stupid. That is how it would hurt me, that is why you're not getting it.

So YOU ignore that OPTIONAL ending.

Do you also think gay marriage damages straight marriages? 

Your analogy is horrible. Having that optional ending making sense would completely invalidate the decision of building the Crucible, since the only reason to do it is based on zero chance of conventional victory. In each and every game, not only in yours.

[Rafficus III]

This is why I appreciate the fanbase on BSN.... at times. Bioware should look into this.

[Putok]

RussianZombeh wrote...

At the end of all this arguing... a single Reaper capital ship nearly took out the entire Citadel Fleet, and was only stopped when it's shields fell because it was busy mind-controlling someone.

It took the entire Quarian fleet to take down a Destroyer, which is TINY in comparison to a Capital Ship.

It would take around 4 Dreadnoughts keeping up constant fire on a Reaper to take it down, and at the end - only 1 would be left. There are barely any Dreadnoughts left, and you think they have enough to spare 3 for every Reaper? The Reapers cut through ships like a hot knife through butter, their ships are nearly indestructable - and before you star going on about missile and nuclear explosives - they would no **** all in space.

Conventional victory ISN'T possible - deal with it. You could definetley win a battle against a Reaper, hell - even two. But a war against them? Not a chance.

We can also take down Reaper destroyers with man portable weapons. Hell, a giant worm does the trick. Two Thanix missiles mounted on a truck do the job too.

Technology has improved since the battle of the Citadel, see: Thanix cannons, based on Reaper tech. Cut through the massive collector cruise like a hot knife through butter. The tiny little Normandy's upgraded armor and shields are adequate to protect it almost completely from the giant Reaper beam weapon on the Collector ship.

We have also mastered fusion technology in the ME universe. No reason not to throw a few dozen 50 MT nukes at each Sovereign class Reaper.

Infinitely more believable than Shepard's DNA + space magic = suddenly everyone is a trans-human. Or trans-tree.

[DextroDNA]

Putok wrote...

RussianZombeh wrote...

At the end of all this arguing... a single Reaper capital ship nearly took out the entire Citadel Fleet, and was only stopped when it's shields fell because it was busy mind-controlling someone.

It took the entire Quarian fleet to take down a Destroyer, which is TINY in comparison to a Capital Ship.

It would take around 4 Dreadnoughts keeping up constant fire on a Reaper to take it down, and at the end - only 1 would be left. There are barely any Dreadnoughts left, and you think they have enough to spare 3 for every Reaper? The Reapers cut through ships like a hot knife through butter, their ships are nearly indestructable - and before you star going on about missile and nuclear explosives - they would no **** all in space.

Conventional victory ISN'T possible - deal with it. You could definetley win a battle against a Reaper, hell - even two. But a war against them? Not a chance.

We can also take down Reaper destroyers with man portable weapons. Hell, a giant worm does the trick. Two Thanix missiles mounted on a truck do the job too.

Technology has improved since the battle of the Citadel, see: Thanix cannons, based on Reaper tech. Cut through the massive collector cruise like a hot knife through butter. The tiny little Normandy's upgraded armor and shields are adequate to protect it almost completely from the giant Reaper beam weapon on the Collector ship.

We have also mastered fusion technology in the ME universe. No reason not to throw a few dozen 50 MT nukes at each Sovereign class Reaper.

Infinitely more believable than Shepard's DNA + space magic = suddenly everyone is a trans-human. Or trans-tree.

There's a MASSIVE difference between the Capital Ships and the Destroyers. Thanix Missiles would barely scratch a CS, and neither would the Normandy's weapons. They're very weak Reaper weapons, they're still not powerful enough to take down a CS on their own.

And LOL. The Collector Ships's weapons weren't Reaper weaponry. Much weaker, as we saw how long it took to take down the SR1. A CS could've disintegrated the SR1 in seconds.

And like I said, nukes won't do **** in space. Plus, the weapons on a Dreadnought are of equal power, if not more powerful than nukes. Remember, Isaac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-**** in space?

Not possible. Conventional victory is NOT possible.

[Putok]

RussianZombeh wrote...

Putok wrote...

RussianZombeh wrote...

At the end of all this arguing... a single Reaper capital ship nearly took out the entire Citadel Fleet, and was only stopped when it's shields fell because it was busy mind-controlling someone.

It took the entire Quarian fleet to take down a Destroyer, which is TINY in comparison to a Capital Ship.

It would take around 4 Dreadnoughts keeping up constant fire on a Reaper to take it down, and at the end - only 1 would be left. There are barely any Dreadnoughts left, and you think they have enough to spare 3 for every Reaper? The Reapers cut through ships like a hot knife through butter, their ships are nearly indestructable - and before you star going on about missile and nuclear explosives - they would no **** all in space.

Conventional victory ISN'T possible - deal with it. You could definetley win a battle against a Reaper, hell - even two. But a war against them? Not a chance.

We can also take down Reaper destroyers with man portable weapons. Hell, a giant worm does the trick. Two Thanix missiles mounted on a truck do the job too.

Technology has improved since the battle of the Citadel, see: Thanix cannons, based on Reaper tech. Cut through the massive collector cruise like a hot knife through butter. The tiny little Normandy's upgraded armor and shields are adequate to protect it almost completely from the giant Reaper beam weapon on the Collector ship.

We have also mastered fusion technology in the ME universe. No reason not to throw a few dozen 50 MT nukes at each Sovereign class Reaper.

Infinitely more believable than Shepard's DNA + space magic = suddenly everyone is a trans-human. Or trans-tree.

There's a MASSIVE difference between the Capital Ships and the Destroyers. Thanix Missiles would barely scratch a CS, and neither would the Normandy's weapons. They're very weak Reaper weapons, they're still not powerful enough to take down a CS on their own.

And LOL. The Collector Ships's weapons weren't Reaper weaponry. Much weaker, as we saw how long it took to take down the SR1. A CS could've disintegrated the SR1 in seconds.

And like I said, nukes won't do **** in space. Plus, the weapons on a Dreadnought are of equal power, if not more powerful than nukes. Remember, Isaac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-**** in space?

Not possible. Conventional victory is NOT possible.

Why wouldn't large Thanix cannons take down a Reaper capital ship? You can see one being taken down by plain old mass accelerator weapons.

The Collector's weapons and technology were definitely Reaper based. They were created by the Reapers. It's stated in ME 2 that their tech is hybrid Prothean/Reaper. They don't instantly destroy the SR-1 for the purpose of storytelling. They cut through it like a hot knife through butter. It doesn't explode until you get through the first little into mission to set up the story.

It's stated that the impact from the slug fired by a Dreadnought is on par with the Hiroshima bomb, which is a good three orders of magnitude less powerful than a good sized fusion weapon. If the concentrated fire from a few dreadnoughts can drop a Reaper capital ship, a bomb packing the punch of 1,000 shots from a dreadnought should easily do the job.

Modifié par Putok, 27 août 2012 - 12:47 .

[dirty console peasant]

RussianZombeh wrote...

At the end of all this arguing... a single Reaper capital ship nearly took out the entire Citadel Fleet, and was only stopped when it's shields fell because it was busy mind-controlling someone.

It took the entire Quarian fleet to take down a Destroyer, which is TINY in comparison to a Capital Ship.

It would take around 4 Dreadnoughts keeping up constant fire on a Reaper to take it down, and at the end - only 1 would be left. There are barely any Dreadnoughts left, and you think they have enough to spare 3 for every Reaper? The Reapers cut through ships like a hot knife through butter, their ships are nearly indestructable - and before you star going on about missile and nuclear explosives - they would no **** all in space.

Conventional victory ISN'T possible - deal with it. You could definetley win a battle against a Reaper, hell - even two. But a war against them? Not a chance.

       First of all there is no proof that it was the entie quarian fleet (there is no proof it wasn't either) although I suspect that some of the fleet was busy fighting off a geth attack and could not contribute firepower.  Also from the cinematic it appears that they were not using their ship length guns they were using the guns on the side of the ship which have dramatically less firepower (also no thanix, or dreadnoughts).  
       
        There is a volus dreadnought that has Thanix cannons. that on its own should be able to take out a CS.  Just because it takes four dreadnoughts to take down a CS does not mean that any ship of a smaller size will not do any damage.  Also there is no size requirement for a ship to be able to be equipped with thanix cannons.  
       
         A dlc that allows the backround project to be changed from the space magic gun to a ship upgrade plant would be amazing.  Again this would be a choice (it could be given in the meeting with the council).  "We have these bluprints for something that we don't know what it does, but we also have these giant guns that we reverse engineered from Nazarra.  Commander Shepard which course do you advise, you are the expert on Reapers after all".  
       
        Again this would be a choice, and people who are content with the current ending would not even have to download the dlc (or since EA loves to sell to everyone, they could add content to the current backround project as well.)  The only war assets that would have to be changed would relate to the crucible (and not even all of them would have to be changed, they could keep the one that tells them the exact location of all Reapers in the galaxy.)
Edited for format.
I also edited the OP with this Idea.

Modifié par Shepard Cmdr, 27 août 2012 - 02:19 .

[MKfighter89]

virgil tells you one 1 that if Sovereign would have just attacked the fleets would have just massed and destroyed him cause they would have detected something coming. (something like that, he tells you that on illos when shep ask why soveregin just doesn't attack with the geth fleets) But like other people said destroying one or ten is one thing, lasting long enough to take out hundreds or thousands is another.

[dirty console peasant]

JillBSuiT wrote...

virgil tells you one 1 that if Sovereign would have just attacked the fleets would have just massed and destroyed him cause they would have detected something coming. (something like that, he tells you that on illos when shep ask why soveregin just doesn't attack with the geth fleets) But like other people said destroying one or ten is one thing, lasting long enough to take out hundreds or thousands is another.

no sensor can detect a ship in ftl, and the reapers can not turn very quickly without dropping their shields.  If there were quick strikes where the attackers hit and ran then the reapers would be defenseless, have an entire fleet drop out of ftl directly behind the Reapers with the guns already targeted at where the Reapers will be fire, and rabbit.  Rinse and repeat.  The only good Reaper is a dead Reaper.

Modifié par Shepard Cmdr, 27 août 2012 - 03:55 .

[ShepComing4U]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Theoretically we can kill reapers.

Doesn't mean we can survive long enough to kill thousands of them in aerial combat, as well as countless ground troops.


If conventional victory was an option the galaxy wouldn't put everything it had into defending the Crucible to make sure it docks safely.

 
Theoretically conventional victory is possible, maybe with 8000 EMS (a number currently impossible without new DLC)

Actually, I've reached a little over 9000. 

[D24O]

ShepComing4U wrote...

Actually, I've reached a little over 9000. 

WHAT!? 9000?! There's no way that can be right!!!

[Cassandra Saturn]

i reached close to 10,000 EC. an 11,000 EC is possbile with Lev DLC.

[Bourne Endeavor]

RussianZombeh wrote...

Putok wrote...

RussianZombeh wrote...

At the end of all this arguing... a single Reaper capital ship nearly took out the entire Citadel Fleet, and was only stopped when it's shields fell because it was busy mind-controlling someone.

It took the entire Quarian fleet to take down a Destroyer, which is TINY in comparison to a Capital Ship.

It would take around 4 Dreadnoughts keeping up constant fire on a Reaper to take it down, and at the end - only 1 would be left. There are barely any Dreadnoughts left, and you think they have enough to spare 3 for every Reaper? The Reapers cut through ships like a hot knife through butter, their ships are nearly indestructable - and before you star going on about missile and nuclear explosives - they would no **** all in space.

Conventional victory ISN'T possible - deal with it. You could definetley win a battle against a Reaper, hell - even two. But a war against them? Not a chance.

We can also take down Reaper destroyers with man portable weapons. Hell, a giant worm does the trick. Two Thanix missiles mounted on a truck do the job too.

Technology has improved since the battle of the Citadel, see: Thanix cannons, based on Reaper tech. Cut through the massive collector cruise like a hot knife through butter. The tiny little Normandy's upgraded armor and shields are adequate to protect it almost completely from the giant Reaper beam weapon on the Collector ship.

We have also mastered fusion technology in the ME universe. No reason not to throw a few dozen 50 MT nukes at each Sovereign class Reaper.

Infinitely more believable than Shepard's DNA + space magic = suddenly everyone is a trans-human. Or trans-tree.

There's a MASSIVE difference between the Capital Ships and the Destroyers. Thanix Missiles would barely scratch a CS, and neither would the Normandy's weapons. They're very weak Reaper weapons, they're still not powerful enough to take down a CS on their own.

And LOL. The Collector Ships's weapons weren't Reaper weaponry. Much weaker, as we saw how long it took to take down the SR1. A CS could've disintegrated the SR1 in seconds.

And like I said, nukes won't do **** in space. Plus, the weapons on a Dreadnought are of equal power, if not more powerful than nukes. Remember, Isaac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-**** in space?

Not possible. Conventional victory is NOT possible.

You know, except for the fact CS Reapers were being destroyed in the last stand cinematic. There is also this gem:

The Reapers, aware of their enemy's reputation, brought overwhelming force to Palaven and did not hesitate to bombard cities that resisted -- and all of them resisted. The dust and smoke from pulverized cities is now a breathing hazard across much of the planet. Water and power supplies have all but vanished. Still, the fight here has cost the Reapers dearly

Apparently, the Turians alone have mounted quite a sizable counterattack because they have "cost the Reapers dearly." If we further theorize the bulk of the Reaper armada is at Earth and the Citadel's main fleet, which would be significantly stronger than individual planet divisions, it heading. We can certainly begin to make a case for conventional victory.

Alas, BioWare could have made his simple and used existing lore to articulate a means of defeating them devoid of a deus ex machina. Maybe the Collector Base is a giant weapon, instead of doing absolutely nothing or any of these suggestions.

What it comes down to it the Reapers are invisible because Casey says so and frankly is ignoring his own damn lore.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 27 août 2012 - 05:34 .

[daecath]

Everyone that says you can't win conventionally, you're right. It's impossible. Just like it was impossible to defeat Saren, or Sovereign, or the collectors.

That's the most frustrating thing about this. Everyone's doom and gloom predictions - we've heard them all before, and we've beaten the odds. That's the expectation that was set with the rest of the trilogy. You face an impossible task that everyone tells you cannot be done, then you do it and come away feeling like a badass. That's the expectation that was set with the first two, that's the pattern that was developing with 3, and that's why, when it didn't happen, people got so upset. It's about setting expectations effectively and then living up to those expectations.

Also, who says a conventional victory is impossible? It's not BioWare, they specifically state, as shown in the OP, that a conventional victory is in fact possible, under certain conditions.

So if it's not BioWare, then who? Hackett? Anderson? The Reapers themselves? Everyone else in the story? So what? A) they're characters in a story. So write that they're wrong. "Hey, look at that, everyone thought it was impossible, but you did it! Great job!" And they're human. As far as I know, none of them have a crystal ball, precognition, or any other superhuman ability to see the future. So when people say "a conventional victory is impossible", what they're really saying is that "some people believe a conventional victory is impossible". Belief doesn't make it so. If they wanted to, BioWare could write an ending where a conventional victory made sense (maybe, I still hold out hope that the talent that wrote Tuchunka or Rannoch hasn't totally been destroyed by whatever lead to the craptastic ending as well as many of the other mediocre points in the rest of the game). It all comes down to what they are able to make you believe. We've already seen many reapers destroyed in the series, is it any less believable than a beam of energy that somehow physically generates and manipulates matter in order to rewrite all forms of DNA in the universe into a synthetic/organic hybrid, without resulting in horrible genetic defects, cancers, or just plain FUBARs? All this done by a machine that was built under conditions equivalent to a caveman trying to build a computer from scratch?

[DirtyPhoenix]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

You know, except for the fact CS Reapers were being destroyed in the last stand cinematic.

No we don't see it getting "destroyed". It had a couple of its arms blown off, yet it still have enough firepower left to one-shot the offending dreadnought into the next galaxy.

Modifié par pirate1802, 27 août 2012 - 07:34 .

[Fixers0]

pirate1802 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

You know, except for the fact CS Reapers were being destroyed in the last stand cinematic.

No we don't see it getting "destroyed". It had a couple of its arms blown off, yet it still have enough firepower left to one-shot the offending dreadnought into the next galaxy.

Except it was cruiser.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Fixers0 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

You know, except for the fact CS Reapers were being destroyed in the last stand cinematic.

No we don't see it getting "destroyed". It had a couple of its arms blown off, yet it still have enough firepower left to one-shot the offending dreadnought into the next galaxy.

Except it was cruiser.

Pretty sure it was a dreadnought.