541 réponses à ce sujet

[Eterna]

If you think conventional victory is possible, then go ahead and pick refuse.

[MKfighter89]

Ender Ghost wrote...

Why has no one mentioned the Geth fleet yet, I'm willing to bet a Geth dreadnought can one shot a reaper destroyer, I really wished they had elaborated on the capabilities of the various fleets.

I never really thought of that, it took several ships of the quarian fleet to take out a sheildless and non moving dreadnought.

[Ender Ghost]

JillBSuiT wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Why has no one mentioned the Geth fleet yet, I'm willing to bet a Geth dreadnought can one shot a reaper destroyer, I really wished they had elaborated on the capabilities of the various fleets.

I never really thought of that, it took several ships of the quarian fleet to take out a sheildless and non moving dreadnought.

And its main gun rivals that of the Prothean flagship, and if the geth have several dreadnoughts I think the Geth could be the key to winning conventionally against the Reapers, especially if you got the Alliance to give them Thanix cannons.

Modifié par Ender Ghost, 14 septembre 2012 - 01:16 .

[Rommel49]

Ender Ghost wrote...

JillBSuiT wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Why has no one mentioned the Geth fleet yet, I'm willing to bet a Geth dreadnought can one shot a reaper destroyer, I really wished they had elaborated on the capabilities of the various fleets.

I never really thought of that, it took several ships of the quarian fleet to take out a sheildless and non moving dreadnought.

And its main gun rivals that of the Prothean flagship, and if the geth have several dreadnoughts I think the Geth could be the key to winning conventionally against the Reapers, especially if you got the Alliance to give them Thanix cannons.

I've mentioned the Geth myself in other threads, it's stated outright in the codex that the Reapers may not be prepared to contend with both the Geth and Quarian armadas, Legion states that "with these upgrades, our fleet could retake Earth", etc.

There's also the fact that the Geth can repair/rebuild from setbacks far more easily than the Reapers can. They only build one Sovereign-class capital per 50,000 year cycle; by contrast, if peace is brokered between the Geth and Quarians, they repair most of the damage sustained by the Migrant Fleet by the time it starts supporting the Turians.

[Dragoonlordz]

Ender Ghost wrote...

And its main gun rivals that of the Prothean flagship, and if the geth have several dreadnoughts I think the Geth could be the key to winning conventionally against the Reapers, especially if you got the Alliance to give them Thanix cannons.

I find it funny people keep pinning their hopes on Thanix Cannons... I see your Thanix and raise you a hundred thousand Oculus. Point being the reason you cannot win conventionally is because the story was not written in a way that would let it end that way. You may as well suggest Shepard opens a portal to another universe and plunders their resources to aid in the war for all it matters. If bioware wanted a conventional victory they could write it so was one, but they simply did not want such so wrote it in way that did not happen.

The reailty is if Bioware want the Reapers to be unbeatable conventionally then it will be so, they could just add a billion Reaper ships on the other side of the portal or they could say a thousand more Reaper ships or billion Oculus arrive during the battle and it speeds up the destruction of your fleets because of reinforcements. The creator of the game can tilt the tide of battle anyway they want at any time by adding new information but it will always end how they want it to end. In this case they did not want a conventional victory so they wrote it so would not get one.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 septembre 2012 - 02:06 .

[Geneaux486]

High EMS still results in a loss if you refuse to activate the Crucible so no, it's clearly not possible in the game's lore. That fact is pretty much laid out right in front of us by the end of the game.

[Ender Ghost]

Rommel49 wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

JillBSuiT wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Why has no one mentioned the Geth fleet yet, I'm willing to bet a Geth dreadnought can one shot a reaper destroyer, I really wished they had elaborated on the capabilities of the various fleets.

I never really thought of that, it took several ships of the quarian fleet to take out a sheildless and non moving dreadnought.

We don't even know if the Reapers can repair their own ships (I mean they probably can but we have no idea), I'm willing to bet that if the geth entered a prolonged war with the reapers they could win just by the fact that they don't rely on dead organics to get troops/vehicles/ships.

And can you imagine the firepower of a geth dreadnought with its canon replaced by an equally large thanix canon? Not to mention they could probably equipe thanix canons on all of their geth fighters and stand on near equal footing against the reapers.

And its main gun rivals that of the Prothean flagship, and if the geth have several dreadnoughts I think the Geth could be the key to winning conventionally against the Reapers, especially if you got the Alliance to give them Thanix cannons.

I've mentioned the Geth myself in other threads, it's stated outright in the codex that the Reapers may not be prepared to contend with both the Geth and Quarian armadas, Legion states that "with these upgrades, our fleet could retake Earth", etc.

There's also the fact that the Geth can repair/rebuild from setbacks far more easily than the Reapers can. They only build one Sovereign-class capital per 50,000 year cycle; by contrast, if peace is brokered between the Geth and Quarians, they repair most of the damage sustained by the Migrant Fleet by the time it starts supporting the Turians.

Indeed, the Geth (and, well, everyone) had so much potential in Mass Effect 3 and instead they blew it with the crucible out of no where so you could get color coded endings.

Modifié par Ender Ghost, 14 septembre 2012 - 02:21 .

[Geneaux486]

*Build up EMS as high as it'll go*
*pick refuse*
*lose anyway*

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 septembre 2012 - 02:10 .

[Ender Ghost]

Geneaux486 wrote...

*Build up EMS as high as it'll go*
*pick refuse*
*lose anyway*

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

You've said that already?

[Geneaux486]

Ender Ghost wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

*Build up EMS as high as it'll go*
*pick refuse*
*lose anyway*

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

You've said that already?

Seeing as how it invalidates the argument presented by this thread, it can't be said enough.

[Ender Ghost]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

*Build up EMS as high as it'll go*
*pick refuse*
*lose anyway*

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

You've said that already?

Seeing as how it invalidates the argument presented by this thread, it can't be said enough.

So you're saying that we can't win conventionally because we have the option of refuse? Thats like saying cancer patients can't be cured because there is the option of suicide.

Seriously, what connection does the refuse option have with winning by conventional means?

[Geneaux486]

Ender Ghost wrote...


So you're saying that we can't win conventionally because we have the option of refuse? Thats like saying cancer patients can't be cured because there is the option of suicide.

Seriously, what connection does the refuse option have with winning by conventional means?

No, we can't win conventionally because if we pick refuse, which leaves us to fight conventionally, we lose.  I was clear about this being my point.

[solidprice]

Would get. could be a what if? if they had shep be able to die in 2...
But i thought destroy was that....

[LilyasAvalon]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

*Build up EMS as high as it'll go*
*pick refuse*
*lose anyway*

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

You've said that already?

Seeing as how it invalidates the argument presented by this thread, it can't be said enough.

Doesn't this depend on how you look at things? Considering refuse was only added in the EC, it actually more or less felt like a middle finger from Bioware. If you ignore what Bioware puts down, I don't see a reason why we couldn't achieve victory with a high enough EMS, this IS sci-fi after all.

[Geneaux486]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Doesn't this depend on how you look at things?

Only in the sense that you either pay attention to the facts or you don't.  The EC proves that the Reapers couldn't be defeated by conventional means, and that fit in with what we were shown and told about the strength of the Reapers through all three games.  A single Reaper is a force to be reckoned with, thousands of them together are a galactic force of nature that required something galaxy-shaking to overcome.  That's the kind of enemy the writers pitted us against, so that's what they were, simple as that.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 septembre 2012 - 05:01 .

[LilyasAvalon]

Geneaux486 wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Doesn't this depend on how you look at things?

Only in the sense that you either pay attention to the facts or you don't.  The EC proves that the Reapers couldn't be defeated by conventional means, and that fit in with what we were shown and told about the strength of the Reapers through all three games.  A single Reaper is a force to be reckoned with, thousands of them together are a galactic force of nature that required something galaxy-shaking to overcome.  That's the kind of enemy the writers pitted us against, so that's what they were, simple as that.

And yet all three games showed Shepard rising above all the challenges and overcoming what was to be expected. Defeating Saren and Sovereign in ME1, surviving a suicide mission at the centre of the Universe against the Collectors. ME3 showed Shepard making alliances that no one had ever deemed possible. Krogan, Turians and Salarians. Showing that a reaper COULD be defeated by a WORM. Geth and Quarians.

I understand that the reapers are not something to take lightly, but so were all those things. Why should everything suddenly change at the very last second?

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 14 septembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[Rommel49]

Geneaux486 wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Doesn't this depend on how you look at things?

Only in the sense that you either pay attention to the facts or you don't.  The EC proves that the Reapers couldn't be defeated by conventional means, and that fit in with what we were shown and told about the strength of the Reapers through all three games.  A single Reaper is a force to be reckoned with, thousands of them together are a galactic force of nature that required something galaxy-shaking to overcome.  That's the kind of enemy the writers pitted us against, so that's what they were, simple as that.

Actually, the EC proves no such thing; the refusal ending itself is so incredibly vague (and self-contradictory at certain points) that its result can't be proven. It's never actually shown that the war was lost, just that Liara's beacon was found... and we don't know when it was found. There's no actual timeline of events (except that Liara had to survive the battle at Earth to record that the Crucible was essentially a lemon that didn't work, unless she planned for that possibility ahead of time), no specific events of the war are referenced by the stargazer - there's not even any guarantee she's speaking about the Reapers (she never mentions them by name), nevermind that her species ever encountered them. Hell, by her own account her species only found the archive; no other artifacts, ruins, or corporeal remains (which runs contrary to every other cycle).

[Ender Ghost]

Rommel49 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Doesn't this depend on how you look at things?

Only in the sense that you either pay attention to the facts or you don't.  The EC proves that the Reapers couldn't be defeated by conventional means, and that fit in with what we were shown and told about the strength of the Reapers through all three games.  A single Reaper is a force to be reckoned with, thousands of them together are a galactic force of nature that required something galaxy-shaking to overcome.  That's the kind of enemy the writers pitted us against, so that's what they were, simple as that.

Actually, the EC proves no such thing; the refusal ending itself is so incredibly vague (and self-contradictory at certain points) that its result can't be proven. It's never actually shown that the war was lost, just that Liara's beacon was found... and we don't know when it was found. There's no actual timeline of events (except that Liara had to survive the battle at Earth to record that the Crucible was essentially a lemon that didn't work, unless she planned for that possibility ahead of time), no specific events of the war are referenced by the stargazer - there's not even any guarantee she's speaking about the Reapers (she never mentions them by name), nevermind that her species ever encountered them. Hell, by her own account her species only found the archive; no other artifacts, ruins, or corporeal remains (which runs contrary to every other cycle).

One could even argue that the Stargazer seen at the end of the refusal is an Asari (Looks a lot like em), so it could be possible that they survived.

[Geneaux486]

And yet all three games showed Shepard rising above all the challenges and overcoming what was to be expected.

Right, and the end of ME3 was no different.  The stakes were higher, so the sacrifice and methods required to overcome were greater. 

ME3 showed Shepard making alliances that no one had ever deemed possible. Krogan, Turians and Salarians. Showing that a reaper COULD be defeated by a WORM. Geth and Quarians.

 
A Reaper Destroyer, one defeated by a mutant among Thresher Maws and the other requiring multiple concentrated blasts from the Geth and Quarian fleets.  Like I said, individually, those things can be beaten, together they're steam-rolling every major military force in the galaxy and igniting entire planets.

Why should everything suddenly change at the very last second?

It didn't.  The precursors to the Reaper fleet (including the individual Reapers already in the galaxy) were all significantly weaker threats.  The Reapers united were always predicted to be terrifying and unstoppable, and they were invading a galaxy that refused to believe they existed, let alone prepared for them.  Nothing changed at the last second, nothing at all.  The situation at the end of it all was completely consistent with the aforementioned established strength of a united Reaper fleet and the state of a galaxy that refused to prepare until after it was already under brutal attack.

Actually, the EC proves no such thing;

It proves exactly what I said it proves.  Liara's beacon itself explains that the Reapers won in the end, ("We built the Crucible, but it didn't work.  We fought as a united galaxy, but it wasn't enough") and the stargazer scene post-refusal established that it was the next cycle that was able to defeat the Reapers.  There was nothing vague about those basic truths.  So again, yes, the EC proves exactly what I said it proves.

One could even argue that the Stargazer seen at the end of the refusal is an Asari (Looks a lot like em), so it could be possible that they survived.

One could argue that, sure, but one would be wrong.  It's a humanoid female standing in the distance and shadowed, that's all we know.  And since the post-refusal cinematics clearly tell us that our cycle lost the war against the Reapers, and that these two individuals are part of the next cycle (the elder referring to those of our cycle as the ones "who came before") we can easily conclude that these are not Asari.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[KeraWildmane]

I can't help but feel that people who argue against conventional victory greatly overestimate the Reapers' numbers. If they'd successfully built one Sovereign-class dreadnought every cycle since the Big Bang that would only be 290,000 of them. While certainly a large number, if we assume that the organic races have one ship (of any class) to every 10,000 citizens, the galactic population numbers in the trillions meaning we could easily outnumber the Reapers.

Add to that the fact that we know they aren't able to create a new Reaper every cycle and that the first planets didn't form until a few billion years after the Big Bang and you could likely cut their numbers in half.

Our odds are far better than the pessimists would believe.

Modifié par Kerasth, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:11 .

[Geneaux486]

I can't help but feel that people who argue against conventional victory greatly overestimate the Reapers' numbers.

And I can't help but feel that people who argue for conventional victory ignore the Refusal ending and pretty much the entire rest of the series.

Kerasth wrote...
Our odds are far better than the pessimists would believe.

No they're not.  In Mass Effect 3 we see the Reapers plow through every major military force, at their home planets no less, Palaven having the strongest military force in Council space, and Thessia having more time to prepare for an invasion than most of the other homewords.  Then, we see the galaxy unite and throw together a fleet of what is basically leftovers to attack the Reapers at Earth, a battle they lose should Shepard decline to use the Crucible.  As of the EC, we no longer deal with hypotheticals, we know they don't win without the Crucible.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:16 .

[N7 Lisbeth]

Eterna5 wrote...

If you think conventional victory is possible, then go ahead and pick refuse.

If you think any of the Crucible endings result in "victory", then go ahead and pick them.

[Geneaux486]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If you think conventional victory is possible, then go ahead and pick refuse.

If you think any of the Crucible endings result in "victory", then go ahead and pick them.

We know for a fact that they do.  We also know for a fact that refuse results in a short-term loss and a victory in the grand scheme of things.

[The Twilight God]

Rommel49 wrote...

I've mentioned the Geth myself in other threads, it's stated outright in the codex that the Reapers may not be prepared to contend with both the Geth and Quarian armadas, Legion states that "with these upgrades, our fleet could retake Earth", etc.

There's also the fact that the Geth can repair/rebuild from setbacks far more easily than the Reapers can. They only build one Sovereign-class capital per 50,000 year cycle; by contrast, if peace is brokered between the Geth and Quarians, they repair most of the damage sustained by the Migrant Fleet by the time it starts supporting the Turians.

1. It is never stated that the Reapers aren't prepared to contend with the Geth and Quarian fleets. That is absurd.

2. Legion can say whatever he wants. Doesn't make it so. The Geth have no experience fighting Reapers and are not sufficently more advanced than Council technology to be any more effective against the Reapers than other forces.

The exact line is, "With these upgrades, our fleet could retake Earth. We could assist with the Crucible. Please. This is not justice." Who needs the freaking Crucible since the Geth can handle it from here?

It only says this out of desperation if you say "no" to the upload right off the bat. In any other situation Legion and the VI says they will support and help. If the Geth could take on the Reapers, why risk putting the Crucible in harms way? Might as well just defeat the Reapers at Earth outright and bring the Crucible in after the smoke clears. The retaking of Earth occurs when the Crucible fires. In that regard their fleet does retake earth. So does the human, turian, quarian and asari fleets irregardless of the geth's presence. 

3. The Reapers building 1 ship per cycle is ridiculous. They are harvesting on all the major planets. Otherwise, they would just glass the planets from orbit and move on to the next. There is no point in commiting ground forces in a prolonged engagement if all you want to do is kill them.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:37 .

[Geneaux486]

The Twilight God wrote...
3. The Reapers building 1 ship per cycle is ridiculous. They are harvesting on all the major planets. Otherwise, they would just glass the planets from orbit and move on to the next. There is no point in commiting ground forces in a prolonged engagement if all you want to do is kill them.

The Codex speculates that the Reapers only build one Capital ship per cycle, and as many destroyer-class ships as there are other space-faring species.  Like you said, the Reapers would just glass the planets right away if they only harvested one species per cycle.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:21 .