541 réponses à ce sujet

[Rommel49]

Geneaux486 wrote...

It proves exactly what I said it proves.  Liara's beacon itself explains that the Reapers won in the end, ("We built the Crucible, but it didn't work.  We fought as a united galaxy, but it wasn't enough") and the stargazer scene post-refusal established that it was the next cycle that was able to defeat the Reapers.  There was nothing vague about those basic truths.  So again, yes, the EC proves exactly what I said it proves.

No it doesn't. Supposition /= proof. We don't know when that recording was made; if somebody writes a will, does that mean they're already dead? I think not. We know Liara was placing those archives while the war was still ongoing - she says as much. Hell, she's already demonstrably wrong in her own recording, she says the Crucible didn't work, when in fact it simply wasn't used... likewise, she couldn't have made the recording if the Reapers had already won - by definition, if they had won she would've already been dead, and being dead precludes making recordings.

Proof requires something that can be seen; show me ruins, bodies, or the Reapers extinguishing the last habitable planet of the current cycle - that'd be actual proof.

[Geneaux486]

Proof requires something that can be seen; show me ruins, bodies, or the Reapers extinguishing the last habitable planet of the current cycle - that'd be actual proof.

Your arbitrary and in-accurate distinction of what qualifies as proof is irrelevant. We have dialogue from Liara stating that our cycle lost the war, because that's what happened. Stated in the game, something we can see. We have two humanoids who clearly identify themselves as being part of the next cycle verifying that further. Again, stated in the game, something we can see.  That is proof that our cycle lost. It's in the game, it's stated outright, it's proven. If you choose to ignore it that's your business, but at that point we venture into headcanon territory. So yes, it is a fact that our cycle loses the war with the Reapers without the use of the Crucible.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:34 .

[KeraWildmane]

Rommel49 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

It proves exactly what I said it proves.  Liara's beacon itself explains that the Reapers won in the end, ("We built the Crucible, but it didn't work.  We fought as a united galaxy, but it wasn't enough") and the stargazer scene post-refusal established that it was the next cycle that was able to defeat the Reapers.  There was nothing vague about those basic truths.  So again, yes, the EC proves exactly what I said it proves.

No it doesn't. Supposition /= proof. We don't know when that recording was made; if somebody writes a will, does that mean they're already dead? I think not. We know Liara was placing those archives while the war was still ongoing - she says as much. Hell, she's already demonstrably wrong in her own recording, she says the Crucible didn't work, when in fact it simply wasn't used... likewise, she couldn't have made the recording if the Reapers had already won - by definition, if they had won she would've already been dead, and being dead precludes making recordings.

Proof requires something that can be seen; show me ruins, bodies, or the Reapers extinguishing the last habitable planet of the current cycle - that'd be actual proof.

Plus there's the fact that Fem-Stargazer says that the previous cycle (Shepard's) fought the Reapers so that they (Stargazer's cycle) don't have to. This means that the Reapers were eventually defeated, by Shepard's cycle, in the refuse ending.

[The Twilight God]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If you think conventional victory is possible, then go ahead and pick refuse.

If you think any of the Crucible endings result in "victory", then go ahead and pick them.

I do pick the victory ending.

The Twilight God wrote...

1. The demise of the Reapers does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
2. The demise of the Intelligence does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
3. The end of the Cycle of Extinction does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
4. The freedom to self-determinate does not any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
5. The continued coexistence of synthetics and organics does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.

Many people erroneously assume that #5 is false. However, the Destroy ending never depicts the destruction of the Geth. There is, in fact, more evidence that the Geth survived the Crucible than there is evidence that they perished. Technically, there is no evidence that they perished.

The Kid says, "But be warned: others will be destroyed as well. The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic..."

At no point does it ever say the Geth will be eradicated along with the Reapers. It heavily implies it. Just as it never says Shepard will be killed by the Crucible. It heavily implies it. At the end of the day, the only thing it actually says is "all synthetics will be targeted". Not that all synthetics will be destroyed.

When asked for details the Kid goes on to state that, "the effects of the blast will not be constrained to the Reapers. Technology you rely on will be effected, but those who survive should have little difficulty repairing the damage."

So now all we really know is that all synthetics (i.e. technology) will be targeted and affected. The affect on non-reaper synthetics is never elaborated upon.

It ends by saying, "There will still be losses, but no more than what has already been lost."

Once again it is ambiguous. I would personally consider the loss of an entire species to be more than what has already been lost. But that's just me.

Any form of machinery is synthetic. In that regard there is no difference between a mech, an omni-tool, an alliance cruiser or a geth platform. The fact that all synthetics, which would include all those ships cruising past that broken relay, the Quarian's cybernetics and Shepard's implants, were not destroyed or disabled indicates that the Crucible was not a sawed-off shotgun after all. Tali's suit and cybernetics didn't seem to give her any trouble. Shepard can survive and his spine is synthetic in three places which were severed: the second vertebrae above the pelvis, the vertebrae right below the rib cage and his neck. If these synthetic parts failed the breathe scene would not be possible. It's not so farfetched that the Kid's implications of technological ruin, along with its claim that others (plural) would be destroyed, were false considering the Kid doesn't want you to choose Destroy. It was a plausible outcome (which made it a good lie), but ultimately misleading. When all is said and done, synthetics in general have not been destroyed or rendered inert by the Crucible.

So the next argument in favor of the idea that the Geth perished under the Crucible's blast wave is the idea that they contain reaper tech as much as EDI contains reaper tech. And therefore it would stand to reason that anything targeting the Reapers and EDI would target the Geth as well. This is an erroneous association. EDI's death is confirmed. Her name is on the Normandy's memorial wall. But it makes absolute since that the Crucible would annihilate EDI. EDI's blue box is physically composed of reaper technology; of parts that are distinctly of reaper origin, taken directly from the wreckage of Sovereign. EDI is technically a "reaper program" as her blue box is built with actual reaper parts.

However, this is not the case when it comes to the Geth. The Geth do not have parts. The Geth are software. There is nothing specifically for the Crucible to target in regards to the Geth. Tali states that Geth were loading into the cybernetics of the suits of Quarian volunteers in an effort to hasten the development of the Quarian's immune system. They are still the same software-only life forms they have always been. Yet there are still people who believe even a program can be targeted. Does the Geth's code upgrade constitute "reaper tech"? I put forth that the only things that are "reaper tech" are things that either indoctrinate, function as an extension of the Reaper's will or bear distinctive markers of the Reapers. Things that, as EDI might put it, have "reaper signatures". Otherwise, there would be no critieria for the Crucible to discriminate against and prevent the destruction of all synthetics (ships, omni-tools, display screens, Kasumi's grey box, Shepard's cybernetics, etc.)

People say the Geth have Reaper Code and that this constitutes "reaper tech", but this isn't necessarily true. As far as "Reaper Code" is concerned, it's just a convenient terminology which is taken out of context. The Geth simply have a code that a reaper designed to improve their efficiency, but it doesn't make that code distinctively reaper in essence. For instance, say a reaper was an architect and designed a house of greater sophistication and comfort than those of organic architects. The Crucible blast would not level the Reaper House, while sparing the organic designed houses, just because a reaper designed it. The house isn't "reaper tech". The term "Reaper House" is just quick and convenient jargon. The Geth remain programs distinguished from the Reapers. Legion doesn't say it was the code that allowed them to be controlled. The code was simply something that improved their efficiency. It had nothing to do with the actual control the Reapers had over them. If that was the case Legion would have turned on Shepard.

Just like the epilogues, Bioware expected the player to make quick emotionally charged assumptions and ignore the plain facts. They needed to tempt players away from Destroy and it would be harder to do so if only EDI, a single individual, was the only thing at stake. Going back to the subject of the epilogue narration, I think a mention of the Geth's destruction would be warranted. Hackett says nothing about any such loss.

[Geneaux486]

Plus there's the fact that Fem-Stargazer says that the previous cycle (Shepard's) fought the Reapers so that they (Stargazer's cycle) don't have to. This means that the Reapers were eventually defeated, by Shepard's cycle, in the refuse ending.

It means that the next cycle was able to use the information in Liara's capsule to stop the Reapers before they were able to threaten the galaxy. We know this because Liara states in her recording that our cycle fell. Again, the game itself disproves your assertion.

[KeraWildmane]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Plus there's the fact that Fem-Stargazer says that the previous cycle (Shepard's) fought the Reapers so that they (Stargazer's cycle) don't have to. This means that the Reapers were eventually defeated, by Shepard's cycle, in the refuse ending.

It means that the next cycle was able to use the information in Liara's capsule to stop the Reapers before they were able to threaten the galaxy. We know this because Liara states in her recording that our cycle fell. Again, the game itself disproves your assertion.

Actually, since the game doesn't specify the exact meaning of what she said, neither of us has been proven or disproven. Bioware has remained vague. This is still specualtion on both our parts.

[Geneaux486]

Kerasth wrote...
Actually, since the game doesn't specify the exact meaning of what she said, neither of us has been proven or disproven. Bioware has remained vague. This is still specualtion on both our parts.

She outright said our cycle lost.  There's nothing ambiguous about that.  I'm not speculating anything in this particular case, I'm pointing out established in-game facts, supported by specific dialogue and previously established lore.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:43 .

[KeraWildmane]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Kerasth wrote...
Actually, since the game doesn't specify the exact meaning of what she said, neither of us has been proven or disproven. Bioware has remained vague. This is still specualtion on both our parts.

She outright said our cycle lost.  There's nothing ambiguous about that.  I'm not speculating anything, I'm pointing out established in-game facts.

Liara said that the Cucible didn't work and that we lost the battle at Earth. This does not mean we lost the war. The fact that she was able to create that log indicates that, if nothing else, she lived to fight another day. Beyond that there are no details.

[The Twilight God]

Kerasth wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Plus there's the fact that Fem-Stargazer says that the previous cycle (Shepard's) fought the Reapers so that they (Stargazer's cycle) don't have to. This means that the Reapers were eventually defeated, by Shepard's cycle, in the refuse ending.

It means that the next cycle was able to use the information in Liara's capsule to stop the Reapers before they were able to threaten the galaxy. We know this because Liara states in her recording that our cycle fell. Again, the game itself disproves your assertion.

Actually, since the game doesn't specify the exact meaning of what she said, neither of us has been proven or disproven. Bioware has remained vague. This is still specualtion on both our parts.

You're delusional. The story and plot dictate defeat. Liara's message and the female stargazer state that defeat occurred. You're grasping at straws because you refuse to acknowledge that you can't get your way.

So how exactly does the information in the archive allow for peace if they never even encountered the Reapers? They wouldn't need any information if the Reapers were already defeated. She explicitely states that without that information they would have been threatened. Which means they used it to prevent war. Given what in-game information we have the only way for the Stargazer's cycle to have not fought a terrible war AND to have achieved this outcome based on the archive data is if they built the Crucible prior to the Reaper's invasion and used it as soon as the Reapers arrived. Or they built it and the Reapers know it's waiting for them and are stuck out in darkspace. Heck, they may have flown it out to where they hibernate and blew it up in their faces. The details are unknown. But these types of scenarios are the only way they could have avoided a drawn out conflict given the information at our disposal. The entirety of galactic civilization showed up and they lost that battle. They went in knowing they couldn't win conventionally. And that wasn't even all the reapers forces. The Reapers were all over the galaxy map. The Reapers were so confident in victory they still had dreadnaughts and destroyers on the ground. They didn't even need their full might up in orbit.

It's possible we came up with another way to defeat them and it was too late to use it. But rather the next cycle used the Crucible or not, the efforts of our cycle were not completely in vain. However, our cycle did lose. And the Stargazer and Liara's beacon dialog attests to that fact.

"We fought as a united galaxy, but that wasn't enough"

Bioware has in no way, shape or form been vague. They've even said themselves that the Crucible was used by the next cycle to kill the Reapers before they had a chance to do much of anything. If you believe anything they say.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:59 .

[Geneaux486]

I couldn't have said it better, TTG.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[Rommel49]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Plus there's the fact that Fem-Stargazer says that the previous cycle (Shepard's) fought the Reapers so that they (Stargazer's cycle) don't have to. This means that the Reapers were eventually defeated, by Shepard's cycle, in the refuse ending.

It means that the next cycle was able to use the information in Liara's capsule to stop the Reapers before they were able to threaten the galaxy. We know this because Liara states in her recording that our cycle fell. Again, the game itself disproves your assertion.

As I covered, there's no way to know when that archive was placed or found - this point has never been answered, ditto for the fact that the archive already contains information that's demonstrably incorrect (e.g. the crucible not working which was considered a possibility before the battle at Earth). Liara was having those archives placed while the war was still ongoing when she first introduces the thing, that was the whole point - they were a "just in case" measure, she can't place them if she's dead. It's not dissimilar from the guys I've known that wrote letters for their loved ones in the event they bit it in combat, etc.

There's also no indication the stargazer used any such information, because she mentions zero specifics except that everything they knew came from the archive; and there's no actual proof to corroborate what Liara says. They evidently found no bodies, ruins, or other artifacts (contrary to every other cycle which builds upon the wreckage of the one before it, or the gazers' species hasn't mastered space travel, in which case they wouldn't have the resource and industrial base to build the Crucible even if they wanted to) - nevermind that Liara specifically pegged the Crucible as being a non-functional lemon; i.e. the archive already contains information that was demonstrably untrue.

The stargazer simply says "without the information they passed down, we too would be threatened", she never says what that information actually is and what would've been threatening them - she never identifies the Reapers by name, hell, she seems to make it a point to avoid the use of Proper Nouns. She could just as easily be referring to the Leviathans and their disco ball artifacts or we could be their religion and that "information" is their version of the ten commandments.

[Optimus J]

It's a fiction, ANYTHING is possible. The very existence of that atrocity, the Starbrat is proof of that.

Sadly we hit a brick wall in reality where Mike Gamble can't let the bone drop, because that would be admit that he blue-pen an atrocity. He HAVE to cling himself to any space magic he can, hoping that a colored ray will synthesize the minds of former players into green-eyed fans again.

[Geneaux486]

As I covered, there's no way to know when that archive was placed or found - this point has never been answered,

The dialogue clearly states that it was found by the next cycle. The exact time is irrelevant to the point I'm making here, the fact that it was found by the next cycle proves that our cycle was wiped out, otherwise it wouldn't be the next cycle.

ditto for the fact that the archive already contains information that's demonstrably incorrect

Which could mean either that A) Liara didn't know that Shepard refused to use the Crucible, either because he didn't tell her or, more likely, because he was killed or harvested right there on the Citadel by the Reapers, or She was telling the truth, omitting the fact that the Crucible didn't work due to user error. In that sense, her information isn't even incorrect: they built the Crucible, and it didn't stop the Reapers. Given all the other evidence that our cycle lost, these are the most likely explanations for the psuedo-discrepancy. Since there are logical explanations for why Liara's recording was worded as such, and there is no evidence given that the information in the recording was meant to be faulty, you have no grounds on which to claim that it was.  The fact is that we have Liara's dialogue that our cycle lost, with no evidence to suggest otherwise, and this is verified further through dialogue with members of the next cycle.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:34 .

[dirty console peasant]

bump

[dirty console peasant]

another drink for mumba, also yes we can beat them without a magical off switch.

[dirty console peasant]

bump for edited OP

[Ownedbacon]

Conventional victory is as possible as synthesis is... you just have to believe!

Seriously though the odds were slim but I'd rather have an unbelievable victory through conventional means and our own developed tech/super-weapon than some last minute ancient super-weapon that we just happened to find in our moment of need and although created by numerous cycles and it practically builds itself and all the resources are easily found. The device is designed to interface with the Citadel although all cycles lost the Citadel first during the harvest so how they managed to design a device to work with something they didn't have access to is a mystery. That and the device alters the Catalyst even though no organic knew of its existence. The fluke Crucible is as unbelievable if not more than conventional victory would be.

[dirty console peasant]

been almost a month, so... bumpy

Modifié par Shepard Cmdr, 01 novembre 2012 - 08:30 .

[Baihu1983]

Yes please. ME has been leading up to beating them so lets have that with no catch for those that worked hard enough.

[dreman9999]

Op, just as the time you made the topic and bumped it before.... Conventional victory is not possible.

[dirty console peasant]

Baihu1983 wrote...

Yes please. ME has been leading up to beating them so lets have that with no catch for those that worked hard enough.

I have no problem with a catch ( a few losses are to be expected, this is war after all) but the current "victories" are all of such questionable validity even in game.  that a straight up non crucible victory would be extremely nice, even if you had to lose quite a few members of your crew, and other npcs.

[liggy002]

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, just as the time you made the topic and bumped it before.... Conventional victory is not possible.

Yes it is.

[Baihu1983]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Baihu1983 wrote...

Yes please. ME has been leading up to beating them so lets have that with no catch for those that worked hard enough.

I have no problem with a catch ( a few losses are to be expected, this is war after all) but the current "victories" are all of such questionable validity even in game.  that a straight up non crucible victory would be extremely nice, even if you had to lose quite a few members of your crew, and other npcs.

You suffer losses no matter what for instance Wrex and Mordin can't both live to the end. I belive legion or Tali will die depending on what choice you make? And of course all squad members can die in 2 and Anderson plus a lot of planets have probably been ruined by the reapers.

[dirty console peasant]

Baihu1983 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Baihu1983 wrote...

Yes please. ME has been leading up to beating them so lets have that with no catch for those that worked hard enough.

I have no problem with a catch ( a few losses are to be expected, this is war after all) but the current "victories" are all of such questionable validity even in game.  that a straight up non crucible victory would be extremely nice, even if you had to lose quite a few members of your crew, and other npcs.

You suffer losses no matter what for instance Wrex and Mordin can't both live to the end. I belive legion or Tali will die depending on what choice you make? And of course all squad members can die in 2 and Anderson plus a lot of planets have probably been ruined by the reapers.

that is what I meant, have the casualties make sense, but the final push should also not come without casualties (SM like but without the possibility of no casualties, however they change depending on what decisions you make).  working hard enough should signify that you didn't lose anyone (or maybe one casualty) on the SM, as that is not paragon or renegade related it is just related to how good of a commander you are.

p.s. legion dies no matter what, tali only dies if you side with the geth.

[Gravbh]

liggy002 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, just as the time you made the topic and bumped it before.... Conventional victory is not possible.

Yes it is.

Show us the CV ending. Not one you head-canoned or that is fan fiction.

Modifié par Gravbh, 02 novembre 2012 - 06:07 .