541 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Gravbh wrote...

Show us the CV ending. Not one you head-canoned or that is fan fiction.

I think the argument is that the ending should have been possible on the facts presented. The argument fails since most of those supposed facts are actually headcanon themselves.

[Fixers0]

Gravbh wrote...

Show us the CV ending. Not one you head-canoned or that is fan fiction.

It is theoretically should have been possible given data as presented in the narrative, despite that same narrative, rather poorly, attempts to enforse that it isn't possible.  

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

* The Council was indoctrinated or stupid
* The Illusive Man had a lot of political pull high up in the Earth government and was able to hamstring Hackett and Anderson from ordering Shepard back to duty as an Alliance officer. OR Cerberus still held some black ops contracts with the Earth Alliance -- Lazarus Cell being one of them, hence the reason Hackett and Anderson had to keep hands off Shepard..... looking for logic here.
* No one prepared for the reapers and denied everything -- idiots.

* Reapers invented space magic drive drastically shortening their time frame from dark space to the alpha relay. (30 ly/day? try 1000 ly/day)

* Then there are the retcons favoring the reapers.
* Then there is the amnesia favoring the reapers.
* Then there is the stupidity favoring the reapers.
* Then there is Hackett's battle plan favoring the reapers.

The occulus is a drone, nothing more. Do you think that the Alliance would have sophisticated drones by 2186? they're cheap to build and they can crank them out and give it right back to the reapers. How about the Turians? How about the Asari -- they're not equipped for standard battle, drones would be their thing.

The problem is that the writers purposely wrote the story for

* The Crucible
* Star Child
* Three Morally Bankrupt Choices

We lose.

[AlanC9]

Well, the dark energy plot only had two morally bankrupt choices. It probably had some equivalent of the Catalyst unless you talked to Harbinger instead. And it would have needed some equivalent of the Crucible to put Shepard in position to make the choice.

But that's all trivia. Your essential point is quite correct. Bio never intended a conventional victory.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 novembre 2012 - 07:42 .

[dirty console peasant]

AlanC9 wrote...

Gravbh wrote...

Show us the CV ending. Not one you head-canoned or that is fan fiction.

I think the argument is that the ending should have been possible on the facts presented. The argument fails since most of those supposed facts are actually headcanon themselves.

the argument was that the ending should have been possible,  also... which of the facts that I presented was supposedly headcannon?  every fact I listed in the OP was taken directly from ME3.  should I also go back to ME2 and ME1?  because I am sure there is even more support for a non-starjar victory to be possible if I go back and look, seeing as how there were so many retcons in ME3 to make the crucible the only choice.

[AlanC9]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I think the argument is that the ending should have been possible on the facts presented. The argument fails since most of those supposed facts are actually headcanon themselves.

the argument was that the ending should have been possible,  also... which of the facts that I presented was supposedly headcannon?  every fact I listed in the OP was taken directly from ME3.  should I also go back to ME2 and ME1?  because I am sure there is even more support for a non-starjar victory to be possible if I go back and look, seeing as how there were so many retcons in ME3 to make the crucible the only choice.

Bio didn't actually establish any facts in the earlier game that they need to retcon. If anything, they made Reapers somewhat weaker, given the great deal of pounding Sovereign survives in the ending. But that can just be chalked up to advances in Alliance tech over the intervening years.

And the headcanoning isn't is the facts you present. It's in the additional facts you have to assume in order to have an argument. Being able to blow up a Reaper or two doesn't prove that you can win the war. Actually, I'm being kind of charitable when I characterize your position as an argument in the first place; it's more of a collection of facts and an unsupported conclusion.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 novembre 2012 - 09:19 .

[Kabooooom]

I've thought about this a fair amount, and I'd have to say that there is probably only one way that conventional victory would be possible: willingly destroy select, key relays.

No, not to destroy the Reapers, who would just jump to FTL, but to cut them off from each other.

What you could feasibly do is, cut off Earth, Palaven, and all major areas where there is a high density of Reapers by destroying the Relays to those systems. FTL travel to the next nearest relay would take months if done correctly (all relays in Arcturus would have to be destroyed for Earth to be cut off, for example).

Then, take your massive fleet and combat the now much smaller Reaper force. This is equivalent to a bottleneck strategy, employed by militaries when hopelessly outnumbered by a superior fighting force. The most famous case where this strategy was used was probably the battle of Thermopylae. Rinse, repeat, sequentially cutting off the Reapers as necessary and evening the odds.

Since one Sovereign class Reaper is created per cycle, eventually, over a very long time, you could potentially win in this fashion. But this is the only way that is even REMOTELY feasible. Every other way that I've seen people propose simply wouldn't work with the numbers and capabilities that are presented in game.

[AlanC9]

Kabooooom wrote...
Then, take your massive fleet and combat the now much smaller Reaper force. This is equivalent to a bottleneck strategy, employed by militaries when hopelessly outnumbered by a superior fighting force. The most famous case where this strategy was used was probably the battle of Thermopylae. Rinse, repeat, sequentially cutting off the Reapers as necessary and evening the odds.

But when the relays blow your massive fleet loses mobility too. And Citadel fleets have less than half the FTL speed of Reapers. They can simply fly around the fleet.

[Kabooooom]

But when the relays blow your massive fleet loses mobility too.

Yes, it is a double-edged sword. However, the mobility lost is minimal at first. If, for example, you isolate Palaven and Earth and all other worlds with a significant Reaper concentration while leaving the rest of the Relay network intact, you have only lost mobility on those few battle arenas that you have isolated.

As it goes on, of course, you will be perpetually backing yourself further into a corner. It could only work if done properly and carefully. And it may only stave off the inevitable - that's the fate the befell the Spartans. But, it is an effective military strategy for going up against a much larger force with a much smaller and inferior one.

And Citadel fleets have less than half the FTL speed of Reapers. They can simply fly around the fleet.

Not sure what you mean here though. That's no different than the situation with an intact relay network. But isolated Reapers won't be flying anywhere fast. Arcturus to the Exodus Cluster is something like 15,000 light years by rough estimate.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 02 novembre 2012 - 09:39 .

[Fixers0]

 When people question the plausability of a possible conventional victory i always wonder the following:

At which point prior to Priorty: Earth in the Mass Effect universe was it plausable to think a magical god like entity in the form of  the only kid ever seen appears out of nowhere in allready suspecious circumstances and presents three options in a scene in which virtually none of the details available make any sense?  

Modifié par Fixers0, 02 novembre 2012 - 10:39 .

[AlanC9]

Kabooooom wrote...

Yes, it is a double-edged sword. However, the mobility lost is minimal at first. If, for example, you isolate Palaven and Earth and all other worlds with a significant Reaper concentration while leaving the rest of the Relay network intact, you have only lost mobility on those few battle arenas that you have isolated.

If those arenas are isolated, your fleet either can't enter them or can't leave them. Which one are you suggesting!

And Citadel fleets have less than half the FTL speed of Reapers. They can simply fly around the fleet.

Not sure what you mean here though. That's no different than the situation with an intact relay network. But isolated Reapers won't be flying anywhere fast. Arcturus to the Exodus Cluster is something like 15,000 light years by rough estimate.

My point is that even within the isolated clusters you've got no real ability to bring the Reapers to battle.

[Kabooooom]

If those arenas are isolated, your fleet either can't enter them or can't leave them. Which one are you suggesting!

Can't enter, that's the whole point. Obviously, you would move the fleet out of those arenas before willfully isolating them. That forces the Reapers to come to you, via FTL, over a period of months. Meanwhile, the Reapers which remain in the relay network can be dealt with in a more manageable manner. This ensures:

1) The Reapers massive numbers are rendered moot.
2) The Reapers that remain in the relay network are cut off from large numbers of reinforcements.

My point is that even within the isolated clusters you've got no real ability to bring the Reapers to battle.

I think you may have misunderstood me. I am not advocating fighting within the isolated clusters. I'm advocating abandoning them, and all the Reapers within them, while continuing to fight within the relay network. The Reapers within the clusters will finish their slaughter, and then rejoin the battle by FTL - which will take months, and possibly even years for them to do. Meanwhile, they are effectively removed from the rest of the fight. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about that. As I said, it is basically the same strategy as that employed at Thermopylae, except on a galactic scale, and it is at its core a fundamentally simple strategy.

[dirty console peasant]

it has been a month, and Omega just gave me more proof. so... bumpity.

[liggy002]

Slayer299 wrote...

It's not possible because Casey said so.

I do like several of your ideas on how the Earth assault should have progressed, so that we get consequences for doing/not doing things in ME3, but I'd also add decisions made in 1 & 2 so your game didn't require the end-game choices we had.

Oh really?  Well then maybe he should edit his codex entry to say it's not.  Why put that in there if it wasn't possible?

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...
Unlimited? I am sure that must be a typo.:innocent:

You must have meant "How is it indoctrination to understand that limited forces>limited forces."

I mean Hackett must be right because if there is one thing history has taught me is that you should give up before you begin because an individually more powerful force can never be defeated in battle. No matter your tactics, terrain or other factors.

No...Let me be clear. You see that canibal...The reapers can clone that and make endless forces of them. Every husk they have they can clone and make endless ammounts of. This includes  the Oculus
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 

{image sniped}

Which can take out ships.
With the husk forces it is 
unlimited vs limited.

Remeber, one of harbingers quotes is"Kill 1 and 100 takes it's place."

Possibly you mean "virtually unlimited" or "easily replaceable"? Because unlimited is impossible.

And I can understand if you are annoyed by my insistance at clearing up a technicality. But my intention is not to harass or annoy but to show that it is not quite as one sided as it appears.

The Reaper minions are easily replaced, the Reapers themselves are replaced at a horrendously slow rate.

If you can show me a limit to the troops, which clearly is not shown, then you can say that. Reguardless, we on the other hand have clear limits that given time the reapers can over run. We can't win convertionally like that.

There is a limit, because you can't fit infinite troops in the galaxy.

[KingZayd]

Blow up the Citadel while it's on Earth. Most powerful relay we know of. Evacuate the fleet before we do so. That could have been what the crucible did.

[pprrff]

There is a flaw in logic of x amount of ships kill 1 reaper , so y*x amount of ship will win the war. We don't know what the number y is. What if there are 100000 reapers? I doubt that even if you put the entire galaxy's ship together you are going have have a fleet that is 100000 times the number of ships that showed up in the battle of citadel in ME1.

Plus at the point in the game, Palaven, Thessia, Earth have fallen, there goes most of the galaxies economy, how do you expect them to replace lost ships, weapons and materials. The only reason the allies got a chance to deploy the crucible is that the reapers are taking their sweet time conquering, they wanted to harvest rather than simply killing. If they start to lose the badly, they can just swtich tatics. How long do you think it would take pacified to earth if the reapers just straight up nuked it? 

Modifié par pprrff, 02 décembre 2012 - 08:11 .