541 réponses à ce sujet

[RiotLaFontaine]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Not every reaper is going to be at every battle, so we strike where they are weak, and when they send reinforcements, they weaken their other positions. Gurilla Warfare all the way. To the people calculating the number of reapers currently in existence, just think that there is no way that even with surprise the reapers ever had a cycle where they took no casualties, some cycles probably destroyed more reapers than could be replaced that cycle. (Derelict Reaper, Leviathan of Dis)

Of course this also assumes that Reapers wouldn't just adapt to our strategies and that they fight and think like human beings when confronted by a threatening force of similar, yet isolated firepower.

This also ignores the effects of Indoctrination and infilitration, as discussed thoroughly in ME1, that even if we bunker down or resort to guerilla warfare, the Reapers can just wait and win the battle of attrition - even if the battle lasts 50,000 years itself.

Likewise, they can commandeer every single relay manually, and lock down transport to and from them.  If a non-stealth ship appears, it's going to be destroyed in seconds - a process entirely visible in ME2 via the Charon Relay.

Furthermore, one derelict Reaper does not indicate substantial losses in a single cycle, nor does it hint that they lost more Reapers than they could replace.  We actually see the opposite: that their numbers have swellled throughout their cycles of existence rather than diminished or remained in stagnation.

[dirty console peasant]

annihilator27 wrote...

You want your Conventional victory? Pick Refusal lol.

I did, but that is not Conventional victory for this cycle or the next.  This cycle loses no matter what, and the next cycle uses the Crucible (twitter apparently)

[Wulfram]

It's theoretically possible to defeat them, in the same way it's theoretically possible to count all the grains of sand on a beach.

[RiotLaFontaine]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Love how some players choose to ignore the galaxy map screen (that is, every system locked down and loaded with an overwhelming number of Reaper forces) after the assault on the cerberus base and prior to heading to Earth.

They are not locked down, there is simply no reason in game to go there.  You could previously go to systems with reapers in them and outrun them.

Can you go there?

No.

You cannot travel to that system at all because doing so would mean death.  Otherwise, we'd have been given the option to search planets for additional resources or N7 mission before the end game.

Each system, by that point in the game, is completely overwhelmed.

[TheCrazyHobo]

Reasons that Conventional Victory is Impossible:

1. No Evidence that the Citadel Races learned to concentrate their fire at one Reaper. Go Watch the Battle of Palavan intro again, the Turians just shoot in front of them killing thousands as their Mass Accelerator Rounds go straight to Palavan.

2. Ah, Thanix Cannons, we have dismissed those claims! Seriously Thanix Cannons disappeared apparently right before the Reapers Invade. The Thanix Cannons were created by reverse engineering Sovereign's main gun, hence why it is essentially a blue Reaper cannon. But, The Council Races decided that they would rather stick with their old Mass Accelerator cannons instead

3. The Council Race's Tactics are horrendous at the ground battle of Earth. First they do not use the Geth....Forget Armatures, Geth Primes and other Geth that can orbital drop in, we don't need them. Then came the scene were the Citadel Races attack the Destroyer. No, you can not kill a Reaper with Shotguns, AR's and a grenade launcher.

4. The Crucible's Interferometric Array is the most Important War Asset EVER. It allows the Council Races to know the location of every single Reaper in the Galaxy...however this was deemed unimportant. I mean c'mon having the ultimate piece of intelligence that has ever been forged is not useful at all...I guess.

[memorysquid]

OP, you're just wrong. Theory isn't practice. In theory, enough conventional weapons CAN overwhelm a Reaper. In practice, there is nothing to suggest the current galaxy can do it and plenty to suggest they can't. You are begging the writers to let you avoid the dilemma. That was the point of the game; some dilemmas cannot be avoided, so you have to choose.

[RiotLaFontaine]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

annihilator27 wrote...

You want your Conventional victory? Pick Refusal lol.

I did, but that is not Conventional victory for this cycle or the next.  This cycle loses no matter what, and the next cycle uses the Crucible (twitter apparently)

We could see it as a pyrrhic victory of sorts.  Holding off the Reapers through conventional combat enables Liara to leave a legacy behind enabling the next cycle to succeed, but we sacrifice ourselves in doing so.

[Chaoswind]

You are being too optimistic and delusional, all evidence says victory is impossible, and you are trying to paint the reapers as retarded, guerrillas? That only work if they run around in small groups, and that is easily corrected.

[dirty console peasant]

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Love how some players choose to ignore the galaxy map screen (that is, every system locked down and loaded with an overwhelming number of Reaper forces) after the assault on the cerberus base and prior to heading to Earth.

They are not locked down, there is simply no reason in game to go there.  You could previously go to systems with reapers in them and outrun them.

Can you go there?

No.

You cannot travel to that system at all because doing so would mean death.  Otherwise, we'd have been given the option to search planets for additional resources or N7 mission before the end game.

Each system, by that point in the game, is completely overwhelmed.

They are not overwhelmed, there is simply the mission.  Remember that before the cerberus base Hackett said that this was the beginning of the endgame, and that everything else that needed to be done before endgame, should be done before Cerberus Base.

[RiotLaFontaine]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Love how some players choose to ignore the galaxy map screen (that is, every system locked down and loaded with an overwhelming number of Reaper forces) after the assault on the cerberus base and prior to heading to Earth.

They are not locked down, there is simply no reason in game to go there.  You could previously go to systems with reapers in them and outrun them.

Can you go there?

No.

You cannot travel to that system at all because doing so would mean death.  Otherwise, we'd have been given the option to search planets for additional resources or N7 mission before the end game.

Each system, by that point in the game, is completely overwhelmed.

They are not overwhelmed, there is simply the mission.  Remember that before the cerberus base Hackett said that this was the beginning of the endgame, and that everything else that needed to be done before endgame, should be done before Cerberus Base.

That's the warning given to the player to let them know that after they enter the base, there's no going back.  The reason we actually can't go back is because of what I posted above; Hackett's warning is a gameplay warning.  There's no reason for BW to pigeonhole you at that point in the game, other than forward momentum, which is broken because you regain control of your ship at the end of the base mission.  If they wanted the reason for Hackett's warning to be forward momentum, they would have instead launched you directly to London without giving you control over Shepard first and giving you access to the galaxy map.

We're allowed to access the galaxy map because its important to see how FUBAR the situation really is at that point.

[dirty console peasant]

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Love how some players choose to ignore the galaxy map screen (that is, every system locked down and loaded with an overwhelming number of Reaper forces) after the assault on the cerberus base and prior to heading to Earth.

They are not locked down, there is simply no reason in game to go there.  You could previously go to systems with reapers in them and outrun them.

Can you go there?

No.

You cannot travel to that system at all because doing so would mean death.  Otherwise, we'd have been given the option to search planets for additional resources or N7 mission before the end game.

Each system, by that point in the game, is completely overwhelmed.

They are not overwhelmed, there is simply the mission.  Remember that before the cerberus base Hackett said that this was the beginning of the endgame, and that everything else that needed to be done before endgame, should be done before Cerberus Base.

That's the warning given to the player to let them know that after they enter the base, there's no going back.  The reason we actually can't go back is because of what I posted above; Hackett's warning is a gameplay warning.  There's no reason for BW to pigeonhole you at that point in the game, other than forward momentum, which is broken because you regain control of your ship at the end of the base mission.  If they wanted the reason for Hackett's warning to be forward momentum, they would have instead launched you directly to London without giving you control over Shepard first and giving you access to the galaxy map.

We're allowed to access the galaxy map because its important to see how FUBAR the situation really is at that point.

You can not go to Thessia before a certain point in the game, does that mean that the Reapers have overwhelmed that system?

[ArchDuck]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Reasons that Conventional Victory is Impossible:

1. No Evidence that the Citadel Races learned to concentrate their fire at one Reaper. Go Watch the Battle of Palavan intro again, the Turians just shoot in front of them killing thousands as their Mass Accelerator Rounds go straight to Palavan.

2. Ah, Thanix Cannons, we have dismissed those claims! Seriously Thanix Cannons disappeared apparently right before the Reapers Invade. The Thanix Cannons were created by reverse engineering Sovereign's main gun, hence why it is essentially a blue Reaper cannon. But, The Council Races decided that they would rather stick with their old Mass Accelerator cannons instead

3. The Council Race's Tactics are horrendous at the ground battle of Earth. First they do not use the Geth....Forget Armatures, Geth Primes and other Geth that can orbital drop in, we don't need them. Then came the scene were the Citadel Races attack the Destroyer. No, you can not kill a Reaper with Shotguns, AR's and a grenade launcher.

4. The Crucible's Interferometric Array is the most Important War Asset EVER. It allows the Council Races to know the location of every single Reaper in the Galaxy...however this was deemed unimportant. I mean c'mon having the ultimate piece of intelligence that has ever been forged is not useful at all...I guess.

Oh man I forgot about #4.

We could never be ambushed or have an attack happen without being forewarned.

Hackett you ******.

[Annihilator27]

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

annihilator27 wrote...

You want your Conventional victory? Pick Refusal lol.

I did, but that is not Conventional victory for this cycle or the next.  This cycle loses no matter what, and the next cycle uses the Crucible (twitter apparently)

We could see it as a pyrrhic victory of sorts.  Holding off the Reapers through conventional combat enables Liara to leave a legacy behind enabling the next cycle to succeed, but we sacrifice ourselves in doing so.

Ahh,So the next cycle did use the Crucible.The Catalyst shouldve destroyed It.One could argue that It did and that the next cycle made another one.But why didnt the Reapers destroy the plans.Unless Liara had a backup in the data safe and the circle continues lmao.

[shodiswe]

When people say the reapers can be beaten conventionaly they think of the few reapers around earth...
There are probably a thousand times more reaper dreadnaughts out there, not to mention destroyers and troops. Even if it had jsut been a hundred times more I don't think it would be possible.

Secondly the refusal option pretty mcuh proves it.. Sure they mght have killed a few reapers... 10 or 20 dreadnaughts at best? but there might be a thousand out there. at least one for each cycle/major race harvested and there had been thousands of cycles, and even more destroyers.

Even if you built a super warship pwoered by the crucible sike someoen mentioned, it would only be able to protect one world, at best. Also it would likely get overrun if the reapers sent in a massed attack.
We don't even know if the reapers can repair the sabotage doen to the citadel given enoguh time, perhaps the citadel could become a dangerous reaper weapon/raper...

That's the whole point of these endigns we were given and the reason the crucible was constructed to begin with. If they had been able to defeat the reapers conventionaly then they would have used the vast resources to finnish new warships and upgrade current oens instead of building something they wern't sure what it was or what it did or what was needed to actualy use it.

There are plenty of games where you get attacked by space monsters and are capable of defeatign them conventionaly.. Why is it so much of a bother.
You faced down a supperior enemy and defeated them one way or another... Is that so bad?

You either destroy them at terrible cost, or subjugate them to become your puppets or appropriate all their knowledge and tech and pacifies them in the process.. What's the problem?

[shodiswe]

annihilator27 wrote...

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

annihilator27 wrote...

You want your Conventional victory? Pick Refusal lol.

I did, but that is not Conventional victory for this cycle or the next.  This cycle loses no matter what, and the next cycle uses the Crucible (twitter apparently)

We could see it as a pyrrhic victory of sorts.  Holding off the Reapers through conventional combat enables Liara to leave a legacy behind enabling the next cycle to succeed, but we sacrifice ourselves in doing so.

Ahh,So the next cycle did use the Crucible.The Catalyst shouldve destroyed It.One could argue that It did and that the next cycle made another one.But why didnt the Reapers destroy the plans.Unless Liara had a backup in the data safe and the circle continues lmao.

Liaras shadow broker henchmen constructed a lot of databanks on several worlds. It's likely the reapers missed one or a few of them.

[saracen16]

ArchDuck wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Reasons that Conventional Victory is Impossible:

1. No Evidence that the Citadel Races learned to concentrate their fire at one Reaper. Go Watch the Battle of Palavan intro again, the Turians just shoot in front of them killing thousands as their Mass Accelerator Rounds go straight to Palavan.

2. Ah, Thanix Cannons, we have dismissed those claims! Seriously Thanix Cannons disappeared apparently right before the Reapers Invade. The Thanix Cannons were created by reverse engineering Sovereign's main gun, hence why it is essentially a blue Reaper cannon. But, The Council Races decided that they would rather stick with their old Mass Accelerator cannons instead

3. The Council Race's Tactics are horrendous at the ground battle of Earth. First they do not use the Geth....Forget Armatures, Geth Primes and other Geth that can orbital drop in, we don't need them. Then came the scene were the Citadel Races attack the Destroyer. No, you can not kill a Reaper with Shotguns, AR's and a grenade launcher.

4. The Crucible's Interferometric Array is the most Important War Asset EVER. It allows the Council Races to know the location of every single Reaper in the Galaxy...however this was deemed unimportant. I mean c'mon having the ultimate piece of intelligence that has ever been forged is not useful at all...I guess.

Oh man I forgot about #4.

We could never be ambushed or have an attack happen without being forewarned.

Hackett you ******.

You`re forgetting something else: the Reapers have been purging the galaxy for countless cycles, and they've become increasingly efficient at it. The fact that they use a different method this time (not going through the Citadel) and still managed to gain control of most star systems near the end of the game shows that they are VERY adaptable. Any attempt made by the organics will be met with lethal precision and a change in Reaper tactics. These super-god-like machines can adapt to anything the organics throw at them.

[saracen16]

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

RiotLaFontaine wrote...

Love how some players choose to ignore the galaxy map screen (that is, every system locked down and loaded with an overwhelming number of Reaper forces) after the assault on the cerberus base and prior to heading to Earth.

They are not locked down, there is simply no reason in game to go there.  You could previously go to systems with reapers in them and outrun them.

Can you go there?

No.

You cannot travel to that system at all because doing so would mean death.  Otherwise, we'd have been given the option to search planets for additional resources or N7 mission before the end game.

Each system, by that point in the game, is completely overwhelmed.

They are not overwhelmed, there is simply the mission.  Remember that before the cerberus base Hackett said that this was the beginning of the endgame, and that everything else that needed to be done before endgame, should be done before Cerberus Base.

That's the warning given to the player to let them know that after they enter the base, there's no going back.  The reason we actually can't go back is because of what I posted above; Hackett's warning is a gameplay warning.  There's no reason for BW to pigeonhole you at that point in the game, other than forward momentum, which is broken because you regain control of your ship at the end of the base mission.  If they wanted the reason for Hackett's warning to be forward momentum, they would have instead launched you directly to London without giving you control over Shepard first and giving you access to the galaxy map.

We're allowed to access the galaxy map because its important to see how FUBAR the situation really is at that point.

Well-said.

[someguy1231]

Just because an overwhelming galactic force can take out one Reaper doesn't mean they can take out an entire armada of Reapers. That's like arguing that a small group of poorly armed thugs can take out an entire military base if they can manage to take out a single soldier.

The fact is, the only time we've ever seen a Sovereign-class Reaper destroyed conventionally is the end of ME1, and even then it shrugged off the initial attack and only lost due to a mistake it made. I know this is a bitter pill for you to swallow, but Bioware simply built up the Reapers to be too powerful by the time ME3 came around. The only way they could've been conventionally beaten is if Bioware suddenly forced massive amounts of Villain Decay on them.

[LateNightSalami]

someguy1231 wrote...

Just because an overwhelming galactic force can take out one Reaper doesn't mean they can take out an entire armada of Reapers. That's like arguing that a small group of poorly armed thugs can take out an entire military base if they can manage to take out a single soldier.

The fact is, the only time we've ever seen a Sovereign-class Reaper destroyed conventionally is the end of ME1, and even then it shrugged off the initial attack and only lost due to a mistake it made. I know this is a bitter pill for you to swallow, but Bioware simply built up the Reapers to be too powerful by the time ME3 came around. The only way they could've been conventionally beaten is if Bioware suddenly forced massive amounts of Villain Decay on them.

Sovereign class reapers are shown being destoryed conventionally in the battle for earth as the fleet begins its initial approach.

[ArchDuck]

LateNightSalami wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

Just because an overwhelming galactic force can take out one Reaper doesn't mean they can take out an entire armada of Reapers. That's like arguing that a small group of poorly armed thugs can take out an entire military base if they can manage to take out a single soldier.

The fact is, the only time we've ever seen a Sovereign-class Reaper destroyed conventionally is the end of ME1, and even then it shrugged off the initial attack and only lost due to a mistake it made. I know this is a bitter pill for you to swallow, but Bioware simply built up the Reapers to be too powerful by the time ME3 came around. The only way they could've been conventionally beaten is if Bioware suddenly forced massive amounts of Villain Decay on them.

Sovereign class reapers are shown being destoryed conventionally in the battle for earth as the fleet begins its initial approach.

And durting the Battle of Palaven before they (the turians) switched tactics from offense to defense, and during the Miracle of Palaven...

Guile and balls are what it appears to take. Which does explain why Hackett can't... hack it. Oh yeah I went there.

[Sajuro]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

3. The Council Race's Tactics are horrendous at the ground battle of Earth. First they do not use the Geth....Forget Armatures, Geth Primes and other Geth that can orbital drop in, we don't need them. Then came the scene were the Citadel Races attack the Destroyer. No, you can not kill a Reaper with Shotguns, AR's and a grenade launcher.
 

Pay attention to the game, they were attacking it to draw it away from the beam which was ****ing with targeting, so the Thannix Missiles can kill it.

[Aiyie]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

No, it's not.

did you read the codex entry that I linked to?

a reaper can withstand the hits of 2 dreadnoughts simultaneously without trouble, 3 strains it, but won't necessarily destroy it.  4 will destroy it.

so it will take 4 dreadnoughts concentrating their firepower on a single reaper to reliably ensure victory.

the screenshot at the end of ME2 shows 295 reapers (all sovereign class), and considering how widespread they are around the galaxy at the start of priority: Earth, its safe to assume that their numbers are even higher than that.  but lets go with 295 reapers as a base.

there are a total of 85 dreadnoughts in service among the citadel races as of 2186.  this does not include the losses suffered between the start of the reaper invasion and priority: Earth.

even with no losses, that is still only a 3.4 : 1 ratio of reaper vs citadel forces.

since its established it takes 4 dreadnoughts to take down a reaper we don't have enough firepower in our combined fleet to defeat the reapers through conventional means... we'd need over a 1000 dreadnoughts to be able to match the firepower of the reapers in a straight-up fight.

by the way, all of these numbers can be found at the same wiki that the codex entry cited by the OP came from.

Modifié par Aiyie, 30 juin 2012 - 05:26 .

[SNascimento]

ArchDuck wrote...

LateNightSalami wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

Just because an overwhelming galactic force can take out one Reaper doesn't mean they can take out an entire armada of Reapers. That's like arguing that a small group of poorly armed thugs can take out an entire military base if they can manage to take out a single soldier.

The fact is, the only time we've ever seen a Sovereign-class Reaper destroyed conventionally is the end of ME1, and even then it shrugged off the initial attack and only lost due to a mistake it made. I know this is a bitter pill for you to swallow, but Bioware simply built up the Reapers to be too powerful by the time ME3 came around. The only way they could've been conventionally beaten is if Bioware suddenly forced massive amounts of Villain Decay on them.

Sovereign class reapers are shown being destoryed conventionally in the battle for earth as the fleet begins its initial approach.

And durting the Battle of Palaven before they (the turians) switched tactics from offense to defense, and during the Miracle of Palaven...

Guile and balls are what it appears to take. Which does explain why Hackett can't... hack it. Oh yeah I went there.

.
And what was the final result of the Battle of Palaven? Reapers won, Turians lost... even with all their sacrifices, Krogan support and the biggest fleet in the galaxy.

[SNascimento]

The only real advantage we have over the reapers is that they don't want to kill us. They want to harvest us. To that end, they have to fight planet by planet on the ground, that take a lot of resources.
.
If in some point they decided their losses are becoming too big and decide just to kill everyone, then it becomes "more impossible" to defeat them.

Modifié par SNascimento, 30 juin 2012 - 05:29 .

[ArchDuck]

What is the ration for cruiser firepower in comparison to dreadnought?

2:1?
4:1?
10:1?

Since Thanix weaponry gives fighters cruiser class damage would that mean they alone could take down reapers? It would only take relatively few concentrating fire.

Also if it gives fighters cruiser class damage wouldn't that mean that cruisers have dreadnought class damage with thanix weaponry?

Modifié par ArchDuck, 30 juin 2012 - 05:36 .