541 réponses à ce sujet

[Aiyie]

SNascimento wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

LateNightSalami wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

Just because an overwhelming galactic force can take out one Reaper doesn't mean they can take out an entire armada of Reapers. That's like arguing that a small group of poorly armed thugs can take out an entire military base if they can manage to take out a single soldier.

The fact is, the only time we've ever seen a Sovereign-class Reaper destroyed conventionally is the end of ME1, and even then it shrugged off the initial attack and only lost due to a mistake it made. I know this is a bitter pill for you to swallow, but Bioware simply built up the Reapers to be too powerful by the time ME3 came around. The only way they could've been conventionally beaten is if Bioware suddenly forced massive amounts of Villain Decay on them.

Sovereign class reapers are shown being destoryed conventionally in the battle for earth as the fleet begins its initial approach.

And durting the Battle of Palaven before they (the turians) switched tactics from offense to defense, and during the Miracle of Palaven...

Guile and balls are what it appears to take. Which does explain why Hackett can't... hack it. Oh yeah I went there.

.
And what was the final result of the Battle of Palaven? Reapers won, Turians lost... even with all their sacrifices, Krogan support and the biggest fleet in the galaxy.

the reapers possess a numerical advantage as well as a technological advantage.

enough of an advantage that they are able to disregard any tactical advantages we have, such as the one employed by the Turians when the Reapers first hit palaven, or the advantage the Asari have against Reaper ground forces on Thessia.

sure, we might bloody their noses a bit, but they'll rip off our arms in retaliation.

[ArchDuck]

SNascimento wrote...

And what was the final result of the Battle of Palaven? Reapers won, Turians lost... even with all their sacrifices, Krogan support and the biggest fleet in the galaxy.

I am not disputing the overall result, but I am disputing the claim of Reapers = invincible. They have been proven to be difficult to take down but they can be reliably and regularly taken down by certain weapons and tactics.

[Aiyie]

ArchDuck wrote...

What is the ration for cruiser firepower in comparison to dreadnought?

at least 12 to 1 if you base it on the ending of ME1 and the ships you see directly shooting Sovereign (we see 11 individual cruisers shooting Sovereign without slowing him down at all).

its possible that 12 cruisers working in concert might be able to destroy a sovereign class dreadnought, but unlikely.

11 cruisers appear to inflict the same amount of damage, at most, on a reaper capital ship as 2 dreadnoughts.  so it can be assumed that 5 cruisers are roughly equivalent to a single dreadnought, at best.

based on that... knowing that you need a 4 to 1 ratio of dreadnought vs reaper to kill a reaper capital ship, you'd need 20 cruisers to do the same.

so... if there's a minumum of 295 sovereign class reapers out there (this number is based on the number of Reapers shown at the close of ME2), you'd need either 1180 dreadnoughts, or 5900 cruisers... or some combination there of, in order to conventionally beat the Reaper armada.

and again, remember that the citadel navies only possess a grand total of 86 dreadnought class ships at the start of the Reaper invasion... that doesn't even include losses suffered before the start of priority: Earth.

Modifié par Aiyie, 30 juin 2012 - 05:39 .

[SNascimento]

ArchDuck wrote...

What is the ration for cruiser firepower in comparison to dreadnought?

2:1?
4:1?
10:1?

Since Thanix weaponry gives fighters cruiser class damage would that mean they alone could take down reapers? It would only take relatively few concentrating fire.

Also if it gives fighters cruiser class damage wouldn't that mean that cruisers have dreadnought class damage with thanix weaponry?

.
I would say it's more like 100:1. Dreadnoughts are weapons of mass destruction... there is really nothing that can compare. 

[Aiyie]

SNascimento wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

What is the ration for cruiser firepower in comparison to dreadnought?

2:1?
4:1?
10:1?

Since Thanix weaponry gives fighters cruiser class damage would that mean they alone could take down reapers? It would only take relatively few concentrating fire.

Also if it gives fighters cruiser class damage wouldn't that mean that cruisers have dreadnought class damage with thanix weaponry?

.
I would say it's more like 100:1. Dreadnoughts are weapons of mass destruction... there is really nothing that can compare. 

the other thing to remember here is that even though the fighters may possess the same firepower as a cruiser, they are much less resilient.

you can give a 6 year old a M60 and he'll have the same firepower as a humvee with a M60 mounted on it... but i guarantee you the humvee will win any contest between the two.

[DRTJR]

If the Quarians never retook Ranoch then the Migrant Fleet could "cat and mouse" the Reapers for decades, and possibly Centuries.

[Aiyie]

DRTJR wrote...

If the Quarians never retook Ranoch then the Migrant Fleet could "cat and mouse" the Reapers for decades, and possibly Centuries.

heh, thats the plot of battlestar galacta you know.

[Baronesa]

SNascimento wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

What is the ration for cruiser firepower in comparison to dreadnought?

2:1?
4:1?
10:1?

Since Thanix weaponry gives fighters cruiser class damage would that mean they alone could take down reapers? It would only take relatively few concentrating fire.

Also if it gives fighters cruiser class damage wouldn't that mean that cruisers have dreadnought class damage with thanix weaponry?

.
I would say it's more like 100:1. Dreadnoughts are weapons of mass destruction... there is really nothing that can compare. 

It is good to remember that there are 2 types of Dreadnaughts.

The old ones with a MAIN gun that takes the length of the entire Dreadnaught and then the newer ones with broadside Thannix batteries. Tactics with all of them are fairly different and the broadside versions have better chances to outmaneuver the Reapers.

Frigates and Cruisers also can outmaneuver the Reapers with ease and since Crusiers and Frigates all have been outfited with Thannix their firepower is enough to bring down reapers on small flotilla packs. A swarm of fighters could also take down Reapers.

Even if Casey (and writters) allowed for a military victory without the use of the Crucible, we would be talking of a very close fight with probably 90 to 95% of loses on all forces. And that depends on if they would allow for this to happen. There are authoral devices that could be used to make it possible.

The big problem here are EMS... if you can keep bumping it and making it bigger and bigger with MP it adds to the feeling that your forces can outnumber the Reapers or match them. It is also possible that the Quarian and Geth fleets outnumber the Reapers... but that does not mean they outgun them.

In the end, the lack of  "conventional" victory is just an authoral device, because in game it could be explained in a myriad of forms: A good example would be taking down Casper the genocidal ghost, and this would have an effect similar to the one we saw on the Geth Dreadnaught Mission... or could also add the dropping of Reaper's shielding etc.

Modifié par Baronesa, 30 juin 2012 - 05:57 .

[Chaoswind]

Aiyie wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

If the Quarians never retook Ranoch then the Migrant Fleet could "cat and mouse" the Reapers for decades, and possibly Centuries.

heh, thats the plot of battlestar galacta you know.

Is actually funner than that, because the geth had a fleet with as many dreadnoughts as the turians, and at least 3 super dreadnoughts, of with the Quarians killed 80% thanks to their blindside.

The geth fleet amounted to the Turians and the humans combined fleets (only turians if you destroyed the heretics). 

[Aiyie]

Chaoswind wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

If the Quarians never retook Ranoch then the Migrant Fleet could "cat and mouse" the Reapers for decades, and possibly Centuries.

heh, thats the plot of battlestar galacta you know.

Is actually funner than that, because the geth had a fleet with as many dreadnoughts as the turians, and at least 3 super dreadnoughts, of with the Quarians killed 80% thanks to their blindside.

The geth fleet amounted to the Turians and the humans combined fleets (only turians if you destroyed the heretics). 

they did?  where?

they retrofitted their ships with dreadnought class weapons, but that doesn't make them dreadnoughts.

look up the battle of the Denmark Straight from world war 2, between the German battleship Bismark (and a supporting heavy cruiser) and several British warships (1 battleship, 1 battlecruiser and 2 heavy cruisers) . 

HMS Hood was a British battlecruiser, fitted with battleship class weapons, but possessing only cruiser class armoring.

when Hood went up against the Bismark, she took a a hit early in the fight and was destroyed in a massive explosion... only 3 out of 1418 sailors survived the sinking of the Hood.

Bismark suffered only minimal and superficial damage from the battle, despite being the focus of the British ship's combined firepower.

Modifié par Aiyie, 30 juin 2012 - 06:08 .

[Chaoswind]

Wait what? A cruiser can outmaneouver a reaper? We playing the same game?

The only thing that can outmaneouver a reaper is a very fast frigate like the Normandy, and only for a little bit of time as the top speed and turning capabilities of reapers exceed even the frigates.

There is NOTHING an organic ship can do that a reaper can't do better, you can only win if you get the jump on them or outnumber the reapers, something that is impossible as the reapers fleets are at the VERY least 3 times more numerous than all the ships Shepard can get combined.

[Baronesa]

Chaoswind wrote...

Wait what? A cruiser can outmaneouver a reaper? We playing the same game?

The only thing that can outmaneouver a reaper is a very fast frigate like the Normandy, and only for a little bit of time as the top speed and turning capabilities of reapers exceed even the frigates.

There is NOTHING an organic ship can do that a reaper can't do better, you can only win if you get the jump on them or outnumber the reapers, something that is impossible as the reapers fleets are at the VERY least 3 times more numerous than all the ships Shepard can get combined.

In battle the Reapers are limited by the shield, in order to get their full mobility, they need to drop the shields. That was the advantage that the Turians exploited.

[Aiyie]

Baronesa wrote...

Chaoswind wrote...

Wait what? A cruiser can outmaneouver a reaper? We playing the same game?

The only thing that can outmaneouver a reaper is a very fast frigate like the Normandy, and only for a little bit of time as the top speed and turning capabilities of reapers exceed even the frigates.

There is NOTHING an organic ship can do that a reaper can't do better, you can only win if you get the jump on them or outnumber the reapers, something that is impossible as the reapers fleets are at the VERY least 3 times more numerous than all the ships Shepard can get combined.

In battle the Reapers are limited by the shield, in order to get their full mobility, they need to drop the shields. That was the advantage that the Turians exploited.

unfortunately though, this only bought them time, it did not win the battle.

the Reapers suffered some initial losses they weren't expecting, but they changed tactics and soon used their numerical and technological advantage to force the Turians into a defensive posture that was slowly grinding them down (remember, without Krogan support they would have been defeated eventually).

and on top of that, the Reaper's only had a portion of their forces at Palaven, unlike Earth where its heavily implied the majority of the Reaper armada is waiting.

all evidence in game points to only two options without the crucible: either prolonging the inevitable defeat by using hit and run tactics or fighting world to world like the Protheans (essentially trading territory for time until running out of both)... or going down in a blaze of glory with a massed assault against the bulk of the Reaper forces that would end in defeat.

Modifié par Aiyie, 30 juin 2012 - 06:16 .

[Chaoswind]

The ****... I said the GETH

3 super dreadnoughts (2 destroyed when their brainsphere was destroyed) and 1 blew up with Shepard inside; +35 normal dreadnoughts (3/4 destroyed when the brainsphere was destroyed)

[Grifman1]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

It's not possible because Casey said so.

And that is the only reason.

Casey may say so but everything the writers and developers show in game says that it is possible. Word of God isn't everything.

Wrong, the writers/developers show it's pretty much impossible.

[Aiyie]

Chaoswind wrote...

The ****... I said the GETH

3 super dreadnoughts (2 destroyed when their brainsphere was destroyed) and 1 blew up with Shepard inside; +35 normal dreadnoughts (3/4 destroyed when the brainsphere was destroyed)

i misread what you said.

regardless though, i can't find anything that gives a solid accounting of the number of geth dreadnoughts they possess.

only thing i can find is an estimate that places their total naval power between 5 and 10 thousand vessels, of which we don't know how many are capital class ships, cruisers, frigates or merely fighters.

its probably safe to assume that the majority of those ships are fighter and frigate class ships, which we've already established would require at least a 20:1 ratio to take down a Reaper capital class ship (and again, with nearly 300 Sovereign class reapers in existence, at the minumum, it'd take nearly 6000 cruiser class ships to defeat the Reaper armada).

even with the Geth, and basing our numbers off of best case scenarios (minimum Reaper numbers and maximum Geth numbers)... we still don't possess enough firepower to defeat the Reapers conventionally.

[THESETH256]

Cecilia L wrote...

The odds would be agianst a conventional victory. Luckily, you can fight like a Krogan and run like a leopard, but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard. Shepard kicks the ass of impossible odds at a daily basis.

It would be a costly victory. They would probably have to abandon Earth to the Reapers and attack them where they are not that many. Find lone Reapers, or small groups of them and put all allied fire power to use against them. Fight dirty. Show those bastards that organics are more resourceful than they think.

I fully support doing this with choices like in the suicide mission where a "everyone lives" scenario would require ridiculous EMS or be impossible.

They could also detonate the Sol Mass Relay,that would cause destruction of whole Reapers' fleet in there,while it's said,that most of their forces are protecting Citadel.After that,conventional victory would be possible.

[Dragoonlordz]

It is not possible because it is not the story they wanted to create or tell.

It is also never going to happen for reason I stated here.

I will also point out why create a new thread that is about the same topic as another. Use the other thread do not create a duplication of content just because want to stand out from the crowd. If another thread is talking about it then use it.

As such (imho) this thread should be locked and discussion taken back to the other thread which already is discussing it.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 juin 2012 - 06:32 .

[Chaoswind]

Aiyie wrote...

Chaoswind wrote...

The ****... I said the GETH

3 super dreadnoughts (2 destroyed when their brainsphere was destroyed) and 1 blew up with Shepard inside; +35 normal dreadnoughts (3/4 destroyed when the brainsphere was destroyed)

i misread what you said.

regardless though, i can't find anything that gives a solid accounting of the number of geth dreadnoughts they possess.

only thing i can find is an estimate that places their total naval power between 5 and 10 thousand vessels, of which we don't know how many are capital class ships, cruisers, frigates or merely fighters.

its probably safe to assume that the majority of those ships are fighter and frigate class ships, which we've already established would require at least a 20:1 ratio to take down a Reaper capital class ship (and again, with nearly 300 Sovereign class reapers in existence, at the minumum, it'd take nearly 6000 cruiser class ships to defeat the Reaper armada).

even with the Geth, and basing our numbers off of best case scenarios (minimum Reaper numbers and maximum Geth numbers)... we still don't possess enough firepower to defeat the Reapers conventionally.

Actually is never given the number, it just says they have as many dreadnoughts as the turians, but  we do know how many dreadnoughts the turians have.

And if these x number of dreadnoughts 3 are super flag ships then is easy to guess how many they had.

Also is impossible for the geth to have such a weak navy composed of mostly frigates, otherwise everyone would had attacked and destroyed them after mass effect 1, the codex says their fleet is comparable to the turians and is one of the reasons no one wants to get into geth space to fight them...

[humes spork]

Conventional victory is only possible through overwhelming odds. The codex says so!

The organic races are hopelessly outnumbered.

Ergo, conventional victory is possible!

[Rolenka]

An arrow can kill a man, but that doesn't mean you can win a war against an overwhelming force with guns and artillery.

[savionen]

According to the codex Alliance ships can outmaneuver the Reapers in space. This basically means that the Alliance ships are much more evasive, why do they sit around and just get shot in every CG movie?

[J.Random]

I see a conventional victory possibility in destroying a Citadel either by means of full united fleet all-out attack on it or by Shepard finding and overloading Citadel mass effect core (if he wouldn't be such a whimp after his heroic refusal speech, staying and doing nothing). No Citadel - no Space Sucker - no reapers' collective conciousness - no tactics. And numbers without tactics mean nothing.

xsdob wrote...

Anyone want to answer the part where the reapers vastly outnumber the regular fleets?

I'll try. Your math is wrong. You assume that their numbers increased with every cycle. My guess - their numbers are decreasing with every cycle because every cycle kills more reapers than may be created from "ascended". If the cycle fights until the last man standing, then reapers can't even reinforce themselves.

Modifié par J.Random, 30 juin 2012 - 07:08 .

[SNascimento]

savionen wrote...

According to the codex Alliance ships can outmaneuver the Reapers in space. This basically means that the Alliance ships are much more evasive, why do they sit around and just get shot in every CG movie?

.
Because you can't put everything you want in the cutscenes.
.
That said, when you take Earth with a high EMS you can see a cruiser dodging a reaper bean. 

[savionen]

SNascimento wrote...

savionen wrote...

According
to the codex Alliance ships can outmaneuver the Reapers in space. This
basically means that the Alliance ships are much more evasive, why do
they sit around and just get shot in every CG movie?

.
Because you can't put everything you want in the cutscenes.
.
That said, when you take Earth with a high EMS you can see a cruiser dodging a reaper bean. 

Point is that it's inconsistent. Alliance ships are superior in evasive maneuvers and hit-and-run tactics. Reaper ships are faster from Point A to Point B, but turn very slowly meaning in any actual dogfight the Alliance ships are superior. Several smaller Alliance ships should easily be able to dog bigger Reapers. If the Reaper wants to fight back, and turn quickly, they lose their defenses. The lore of the game is inconsistent with what actually happens, but that's pretty much ME3 in a nutshell.

Modifié par savionen, 30 juin 2012 - 07:02 .