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[The Angry One]

.. the Catalyst being a deceptive manipulator?

Setting aside the exact nature of the functions of the WarCrime-O-Matic Crucible, let's look at the reject ending.
Specifically, "SO BE IT." Now, yes. We already know pretty much that it is a Reaper/Reaper intelligence/Harbinger/3rd Reaper from the right/whatever. However, it actually voicing itself that way provides a visceral insight into what it truly is.

The point is, why does it speak to you with the form and voice of a human child the rest of the time?
Sovereign and Harbinger were nothing if not frank in everything they said. This was in a way refreshing. They never pretended to be something they weren't (Collector General aside, it still used the same voice and manner of speech).
The Catalyst hides everything it is and everything it does behind a layer of deceit. It paints itself as something completely foreign to what it really is - an innocent child. This on top of it's sugar-coating of it's incredible crimes.

So I have to know, out of curiosity. Does this not bother you? Does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth knowing that when this being is challenged, it reverts to it's "true" voice? That it maintains a facade for as long as Shepard plays nice with it?

[Maias227]

Not at all.

[LegendaryBlade]

I don't think the new endings are great, infact I think they're 'mediocre' to 'okay', but that is one giant leap forward to what we have. A C+ is a lot better than an F-.

As for the Catalyst, I do like a few things. I like that we can find out his origin, and find out that his logic is factually flawed. It's almost as if the writers had given him intentionally bad logic, but I think this is more like using concealer to cover a pimple. We find out that he is not doing what his creators designed him to. We now know, for sure, that the Starkid is not a good fellow. We are still stuck with our three choices, or the choice to refuse. Unfortunately, leading to us being whiped out.

Is a step in the right direction, and it's the best we're going to get as Bioware said they will no longer alter the endings.

EDIT: I'd like Refusal more if we didn't get "The next cycle uses the crucible the right way anyway, so you didn't actually accomplish anything". As of Word of God twitter confirmation. I'd of much preferred "Your war effort allows the next cycle to win conventionally without sacrificing their beliefs int he process."

Modifié par LegendaryBlade, 30 juin 2012 - 06:45 .

[Leafs43]

The endings were crap before June 26th.

They are crap after June 26th, just with a few more bells and whistles.

[Malkeor]

Yeah as soon as I heard "So be it" in that voice...heh...I mean cmon.
You are right.

[excelon]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

I can't believe I'm saying this...but...

I agree with you.

Although I usually don't agree with The Angry One's views, he's usually right 99% of the time.

[Tommyspa]

Morality means little in war and you can't prove the catalyst is being manipulative or truthful.

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

Oh great, it's back.

[BNPunish]

i destroyed it on my ending so i dont care

Modifié par BNPunish, 30 juin 2012 - 06:49 .

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

Really TAO, you've been on this fairly mediocre game's case for nearly a quarter of a year.

Let it go...move on. It's over.

[Skyhawk02]

I basically agree with the Original Post, but I think this is actually one of the things that makes the extended cut so great. It shows how the Catalyst in creating his cycle, is actually fulfilling his own prophecy that the created will rebel against their creators, since that is what he did! I thought it was really clever writing.

The reason to trust the Catalyst isn't because he is honest, it is because he is powerful.

[The Angry One]

Tommyspa wrote...

Morality means little in war and you can't prove the catalyst is being manipulative or truthful.

It proves that itself by it's behaviour.
In the end, what did we fight for if not our ideals, to be free of the Reapers? Not to bow down to them at the last minute.

Skyhawk02 wrote...

I basically agree with the Original
Post, but I think this is actually one of the things that makes the
extended cut so great. It shows how the Catalyst in creating his cycle,
is actually fulfilling his own prophecy that the created will rebel
against their creators, since that is what he did! I thought it was
really clever writing.

The reason to trust the Catalyst isn't because he is honest, it is because he is powerful.

And that should be an option, certainly.
I take issue with punishing those of us who reject it's manipulations.

Modifié par The Angry One, 30 juin 2012 - 06:49 .

[Mr.House]

Yes, it makes killing him more satisfying. If only the little brat would beg as I was shooting the pipe and Shepard was smiling as she did it.

[Malkeor]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

Really TAO, you've been on this fairly mediocre game's case for nearly a quarter of a year.

Let it go...move on. It's over.

But she's right....and a hell of a voice.  I like reading her posts and threads when I see them.

[The Angry One]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

Really TAO, you've been on this fairly mediocre game's case for nearly a quarter of a year.

Let it go...move on. It's over.

I'm here because people like my thoughts on the matter.
Also, why should I let go of a 5 year saga because it's creators insisted on ending it in mediocrity? It deserves better.

Mr.House wrote...

Yes, it makes killing him more
satisfying. If only the little brat would beg as I was shooting the pipe
and Shepard was smiling as she did it.

I get that too. Anyone who knows my thoughts knows I put destroy far above control and synthesis (though control did get a little better.. if creepier. Synthesis because 500 times worse).
However, the penalty of the Geth remains. I can't help but detest the notion that I must butcher every last innocent synthetic because the Catalyst proclaims it.

Modifié par The Angry One, 30 juin 2012 - 06:52 .

[Zanallen]

It doesn't have a true voice. It is a program with a holographic interface. It doesn't have a body. I have no problem with the Catalyst looking like a child or speaking with any voice it wants to speak with.

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

Malkeor wrote...

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

Really TAO, you've been on this fairly mediocre game's case for nearly a quarter of a year.

Let it go...move on. It's over.

But she's right....and a hell of a voice.  I like reading her posts and threads when I see them.

Which is my point.

She's said the same basic correct thing for a quarter of a year.

The current series is over. Let's just move on with our lives. Saying the same thing, beating this dead medicore horse is just tiring.

There can't be much said that hasn't already been said. She just needs to move on. It's kind of sad.

The Angry One wrote...

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

Really TAO, you've been on this fairly mediocre game's case for nearly a quarter of a year.

Let it go...move on. It's over.

I'm here because people like my thoughts on the matter.
Also, why should I let go of a 5 year saga because it's creators insisted on ending it in mediocrity? It deserves better.

But at some point, the amount of time you spend rehashing the same points about this medicore game has to matter. It's been a quarter of a year. It ended on a sour note, but it's over.

Everyone needs to move-on, really.

Modifié par AlduinTheWorldNommer, 30 juin 2012 - 06:53 .

[LegendaryBlade]

Mr.House wrote...

Yes, it makes killing him more satisfying. If only the little brat would beg as I was shooting the pipe and Shepard was smiling as she did it.

In before people realize Catalyst is likely just as okay with Destroy as the other endings, because although it means the end of his solution it whipes out all synthetic life in the process; which is what he beliefs will whipe out organics if not for his solution.

The Catalyst does not present you with options other than ones he approves of, because he is a manipulative evil little ****. For all we know the Crucible had a "Make the reapers do the robot and fly in to a sun button" he decided not to tell us about.

[nicocap24]

I would have a problem if the Catalyst was a benevolent being that you're not supposed to question... which is what it was before the EC. I actually like the fact that he's a jackass.

[Skyhawk02]

The Angry One wrote...

And that should be an option, certainly.
I take issue with punishing those of us who reject it's manipulations.

I don't think I said anything about creating a new option, I was talking about the options we already have.  Since we know that the Catalyst is Powerful and Manipulative, why wouldn't he punish you for rejecting his manipulations?  Do you expect him to just roll over and die because you disagree with him?  No way, he is going to fight back until he finds someone else who is more easily manipulated.

[The Angry One]

Zanallen wrote...

It doesn't have a true voice. It is a program with a holographic interface. It doesn't have a body. I have no problem with the Catalyst looking like a child or speaking with any voice it wants to speak with.

It is a Reaper. It's true voice is that of a Reaper's.
Of course that voice is chosen and synthesized too, but it's one common to all of them.
Moreover, it only uses this voice in anger, in a moment where you can see it loses self-composure, furious that you reject it's choices. That's very telling.

[The Angry One]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And that should be an option, certainly.
I take issue with punishing those of us who reject it's manipulations.

I don't think I said anything about creating a new option, I was talking about the options we already have.  Since we know that the Catalyst is Powerful and Manipulative, why wouldn't he punish you for rejecting his manipulations?  Do you expect him to just roll over and die because you disagree with him?  No way, he is going to fight back until he finds someone else who is more easily manipulated.

Of course. He would seek to punish us. The problem is, the game lets him. Shepard just stands there and does nothing.

[Skyhawk02]

nicocap24 wrote...

I would have a problem if the Catalyst was a benevolent being that you're not supposed to question... which is what it was before the EC. I actually like the fact that he's a jackass.

Exactly, I really liked his dialogue in the EC, it really revealed a lot more about his personality.  Now that we know he isn't being totally honest with us or himself, we have a much more interesting choice to make.