565 réponses à ce sujet

[Torrible]

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

If the Catalyst wanted to survive or continue being King of the Reapers, then all he had to do was simply not appear while the Reaper forces destroy the Alliance. Shepard won't be touching anything unless he knew what they could do.

So much for being a master manipulator.

What it wants is synthesis. It flat out admits this. It is trying to manipulate you into going that route.
Failing that, it will try to convince you to reshape the galaxy on it's terms.

Survival is not a key issue here. A psychopath's true concern is not survival, but remaining in control until the very end and sometimes beyond.

Yes, but why not trick Shepard by making all 3 options Synthesis? Lie to him that all 3 options will destroy the Reapers in 3 different ways that will not affect non-Reaper tech. I think he wanted Shepard to have a real choice. The question is why?

I think that although he thought that Synthesis was the best way to end the cycle, he was unsure. Somehow he decided that Shepard was in the best position to make that choice.

Modifié par Torrible, 30 juin 2012 - 08:59 .

[Jackums]

Shallyah wrote...

Everyone knew the Catalyst is smooth talking you to pick Control/Synthesis from the beginning (except a few delusional people that actually thought he was some kind of truthsaying overgod). I don't know why it surprises anyone. Some people are really gullible.

Synthesis, maybe. But not Control. It straight-up states it doesn't like the idea of being replaced by Shep.

[TheBlackBaron]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, standing up for convictions and not becoming a slave to an omnicidal maniac's agenda is evil.

This is what Mass Effect has become. It's become a story where people can actually make that argument. Pitiable.

Standing up for your beloved convinctions only results in allowing that omnicidal maniac free reign to complete that agenda for this cycle. And nothing Shepard does or could do is going to change that. 

So yeah, that's pretty damn evil. 

[The Angry One]

Shallyah wrote...

Why would it bother me? Does it bother you that when you want to cause a good impression in a job interview and take a long bath, use collogne/perfume and put on your best suit/dress, and smile or appear to look more charming than you are in your regular life? And when hitting up on a boy/girl you like?

Hypocresy is powerful here.

Everyone knew the Catalyst is smooth talking you to pick Control/Synthesis from the beginning (except a few delusional people that actually thought he was some kind of truthsaying overgod). I don't know why it surprises anyone. Some people are really gullible.

Yes, because presenting one's self well and actively lying about what you are is exactly the same thing.

I already said that it's nature was obvious, but the EC made it blatant. Please read my posts before responding, thank you.

[Skyhawk02]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, standing up for convictions and not becoming a slave to an omnicidal maniac's agenda is evil.

This is what Mass Effect has become. It's become a story where people can actually make that argument. Pitiable.

Surely a story that can do that is an impressive feat.  I am interested in playing games that twist morality on its head and make me ask myself questions about what I believe is morally right.

[The Angry One]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Standing up for your beloved convinctions only results in allowing that omnicidal maniac free reign to complete that agenda for this cycle. And nothing Shepard does or could do is going to change that. 

So yeah, that's pretty damn evil.

Therefore, please uninstall/sell your copies of ME2 and ME3 and surrender to Saren.
Nothing Shepard can do can change anything, and you wasted 3 years and many lives trying.

[The Angry One]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, standing up for convictions and not becoming a slave to an omnicidal maniac's agenda is evil.

This is what Mass Effect has become. It's become a story where people can actually make that argument. Pitiable.

Surely a story that can do that is an impressive feat.  I am interested in playing games that twist morality on its head and make me ask myself questions about what I believe is morally right.

It twists nothing. It flat out says the entire series was a waste of time and the only option is to surrender to the villain.
Stop pretending this is deep or clever. There are many stories that are built to reflect this kind of moral quandry from the ground up. It has no place here, because the story doesn't support it.

[Jackums]

TheBlackBaron is completely correct. Refuse is putting your own pride and morals before the well-being of others, resulting in the loss of trillions of lives simply because you couldn't put aside your own sentiment for the better of the whole. Paragon Control Shep explains this in his speech; sacrificing himself to become the one who can save the many, etc.

[nicocap24]

The Angry One wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, standing up for convictions and not becoming a slave to an omnicidal maniac's agenda is evil.

This is what Mass Effect has become. It's become a story where people can actually make that argument. Pitiable.

Surely a story that can do that is an impressive feat.  I am interested in playing games that twist morality on its head and make me ask myself questions about what I believe is morally right.

It twists nothing. It flat out says the entire series was a waste of time and the only option is to surrender to the villain.
Stop pretending this is deep or clever. There are many stories that are built to reflect this kind of moral quandry from the ground up. It has no place here, because the story doesn't support it.

The series was a waste of time only if you chose refuse. You managed to stop Sovereign. You managed to stop the collectors. Now you have the chance to stop the Reapers. Go ahead and shoot that damn tube.

[The Angry One]

JackumsD wrote...

TheBlackBaron is completely correct. Refuse is putting your own pride and morals before the well-being of others, resulting in the loss of trillions of lives simply because you couldn't put aside your own sentiment for the better of the whole. Paragon Control Shep explains this in his speech; sacrificing himself to become the one who can save the many, etc.

Yeah. Just like refusing Sovereign did.
Just like battling Saren did.
Just like going on a suicide mission to stop Harbinger did.

[Skyhawk02]

M25105 wrote...

I'll quote myself from another post.

"Thanks for the free DLC though. I hope you at least learned your lesson. Keep things simple and don't try to get all philosophical on us. There is a reason why "Baddies dies, good guys win, hero gets together with his lover" formula works and why the "dark, bitter sweet ending" doesn't, save for the dressed in black, hipster crowd who think they're intellectually superior, but can't seem to find financial success in life (yes, yes I know. I'm generalising). "

I want to argue with this, but other than the dressing in black part it describes me quite accurately.

[The Angry One]

nicocap24 wrote...

The series was a waste of time only if you chose refuse. You managed to stop Sovereign. You managed to stop the collectors. Now you have the chance to stop the Reapers. Go ahead and shoot that damn tube.

Yeah, shoot the tube and kill billions of innocent Geth for the heinous crime of existing.
This is my problem. The Catalyst forces you to be a war criminal if you want civilisation to survive.

All I want to do is choose survival on my own terms, just like every other Mass Effect let me do.

[xsdob]

The Angry One wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

TheBlackBaron is completely correct. Refuse is putting your own pride and morals before the well-being of others, resulting in the loss of trillions of lives simply because you couldn't put aside your own sentiment for the better of the whole. Paragon Control Shep explains this in his speech; sacrificing himself to become the one who can save the many, etc.

Yeah. Just like refusing Sovereign did.
Just like battling Saren did.
Just like going on a suicide mission to stop Harbinger did.

How is that related, the only thing those all have in common is that the entire reaper fleet hadn't showed up and conquored all the homeworlds and most of the colonies yet.

[Zemorion]

The way I see it, the ending is pretty much a grand scale version of the Quarian/Geth conflict - a Human/Reaper conflict. The Catalyst have been programmed to find a solution to an old conflict between organics and synthetics, which it have simply been carrying out with success ever since because no other valid options was made available. The same way that Legion and the Geth initially became hostile towards the Quarians after becoming sentient -  since no other options was ever made available to them after the Geth War began, they believed killing Quarians and everyone else was the only way.

That is until they meet Shepard and become intrigued and interested in the new ways and options that he/she brings. So Shepard is ultimately able to change the ways of the Geth entirely, from hostile units showing no mercy, to something greater - thoughtful beings with what resembles a soul.

When we meet the Catalyst, we realize that Shepard have a similar effect on the Reapers, as he/she is the first being from a cycle under harvest to actually be able to make an impact. The Catalyst now realize that there are new options available, and starts to question itself and it's current programming. So once again, and for the final time, you have to make a last choice that will decide the future of the Reapers and the galaxy. If you have shown trust and willingness to aid the Geth to new ways, why not the Reapers?

Modifié par Zemorion, 30 juin 2012 - 08:59 .

[KotorEffect3]

JackumsD wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

As I choose to a) not persist in the fantasy that there is or ever was a possibility of defeating the Reapers straight up in a conventional war (and contrary to what is often claimed, no, ME3 and the Crucible plot did not change this - it was self-evident to anybody paying attention to the series since ME1), and refuse to pettily condemn the entire allied force and every advanced species in the galaxy to death to satisfy my own morality, no, it doesn't bother me.

Or at least, not as much as choosing Reject would. Pretty amazing how the Paragon philosophy - morals before methods - winds up being the basis for what is quite possibly the most evil act in the entire trilogy.

+1

+2  I am generally a paragon player but I agree with this statement.  The only thing Shepard should be concerned about is ending the war and saving the galaxy.  I doubt people that are fighting and dying all over the galaxy are going to give two craps about Shepard satisfying some self righteous need to stroke his ego.  They just want to not be harvested.

[nicocap24]

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

The series was a waste of time only if you chose refuse. You managed to stop Sovereign. You managed to stop the collectors. Now you have the chance to stop the Reapers. Go ahead and shoot that damn tube.

Yeah, shoot the tube and kill billions of innocent Geth for the heinous crime of existing.
This is my problem. The Catalyst forces you to be a war criminal if you want civilisation to survive.

All I want to do is choose survival on my own terms, just like every other Mass Effect let me do.

But see, at least to me, that wouldn't be interesting at all. Just winning and killing the Reapers, with no side effects. The fact that every choice has a downside to it makes it interesting for me.

Edit: Of course, you disagree, I understand that. But that's why, in the end, this is all just a matter of opinion. You're not right and neither am I. But the series wasn't a waste of time for me and it wasn't a waste of time for a lot of other people.

Modifié par nicocap24, 30 juin 2012 - 08:59 .

[Jackums]

The Angry One wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

TheBlackBaron is completely correct. Refuse is putting your own pride and morals before the well-being of others, resulting in the loss of trillions of lives simply because you couldn't put aside your own sentiment for the better of the whole. Paragon Control Shep explains this in his speech; sacrificing himself to become the one who can save the many, etc.

Yeah. Just like refusing Sovereign did.
Just like battling Saren did.
Just like going on a suicide mission to stop Harbinger did.

None of the above resulted in the extinction of every advanced civilisation in the galaxy. Your choice in regards to the Catalyst and the Crucible did. Generalising doesn't justify being too prideful to sacrifice yourself and/or your ideals for the better of others.

[TheBlackBaron]

The Angry One wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Standing up for your beloved convinctions only results in allowing that omnicidal maniac free reign to complete that agenda for this cycle. And nothing Shepard does or could do is going to change that. 

So yeah, that's pretty damn evil.

Therefore, please uninstall/sell your copies of ME2 and ME3 and surrender to Saren.
Nothing Shepard can do can change anything, and you wasted 3 years and many lives trying.

Quite the contrary. Pick Destroy. The Reapers are now gone for good. So is the Catalyst. Advanced civilization has been preserved, albeit at extreme cost to the galaxy, but preserved nonetheless. The enemy has handed to us the means to destroy him. 

What's stopping you from doing this, again? Deciding to put your morality before the rest of the galaxy? 

[The Angry One]

xsdob wrote...

How is that related, the only thing those all have in common is that the entire reaper fleet hadn't showed up and conquored all the homeworlds and most of the colonies yet.

So what? They were still Reapers. Their victory was inevitable. Sovereign and Harbinger told you so themselves.
Yet, we defied them.

[Jackums]

xsdob wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

TheBlackBaron
is completely correct. Refuse is putting your own pride and morals
before the well-being of others, resulting in the loss of trillions of
lives simply because you couldn't put aside your own sentiment for the
better of the whole. Paragon Control Shep explains this in his speech;
sacrificing himself to become the one who can save the many, etc.

Yeah. Just like refusing Sovereign did.
Just like battling Saren did.
Just like going on a suicide mission to stop Harbinger did.

How
is that related, the only thing those all have in common is that the
entire reaper fleet hadn't showed up and conquored all the homeworlds
and most of the colonies yet.

KotorEffect3 wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

As I choose to a) not persist in the fantasy that there is or ever was a possibility of defeating the Reapers straight up in a conventional war (and contrary to what is often claimed, no, ME3 and the Crucible plot did not change this - it was self-evident to anybody paying attention to the series since ME1), and refuse to pettily condemn the entire allied force and every advanced species in the galaxy to death to satisfy my own morality, no, it doesn't bother me.

Or at least, not as much as choosing Reject would. Pretty amazing how the Paragon philosophy - morals before methods - winds up being the basis for what is quite possibly the most evil act in the entire trilogy.

+1

+2  I am generally a paragon player but I agree with this statement.  The only thing Shepard should be concerned about is ending the war and saving the galaxy.  I doubt people that are fighting and dying all over the galaxy are going to give two craps about Shepard satisfying some self righteous need to stroke his ego.  They just want to not be harvested.

+1 to both of these. Very well said.

[xsdob]

If hitler was dumb enough to put a bomb in his car and give me the detonator, well that's his own damned fault than.

Sorry austria, you will be remembered always.

Modifié par xsdob, 30 juin 2012 - 09:02 .

[The Angry One]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Quite the contrary. Pick Destroy. The Reapers are now gone for good. So is the Catalyst. Advanced civilization has been preserved, albeit at extreme cost to the galaxy, but preserved nonetheless. The enemy has handed to us the means to destroy him.

On it's own terms. By it's rules.

What's stopping you from doing this, again? Deciding to put your morality before the rest of the galaxy? 

Billions of innocent Geth are what's stopping me.
I wonder if you'd be so casual about destroy if it was set to kill all organics instead.

[Skyhawk02]

The Angry One wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

TheBlackBaron is completely correct. Refuse is putting your own pride and morals before the well-being of others, resulting in the loss of trillions of lives simply because you couldn't put aside your own sentiment for the better of the whole. Paragon Control Shep explains this in his speech; sacrificing himself to become the one who can save the many, etc.

Yeah. Just like refusing Sovereign did.
Just like battling Saren did.
Just like going on a suicide mission to stop Harbinger did.

There's a difference with those situations though.  Letting Saren and Sovereign execute there plan would have resulted in the death of all intellegent organic life.  Harbinger was killing thousands of humans, so stopping him saved lives too.  


Rejecting the Catalyst's decision does not save lives, it costs the lives of all intellegent organics species, whereas picking any of the other 3 options saves them.

[Captiosus77]

nicocap24 wrote...
The series was a waste of time only if you chose refuse. You managed to stop Sovereign. You managed to stop the collectors. Now you have the chance to stop the Reapers. Go ahead and shoot that damn tube.

I do have to say, although I wasn't happy with the way we were only presented with choices at the end...

...every time I shoot that damn tube, I am filled with joy. Watching it explode and the child get erased from existence. We can rebuild synthetics. Starchild made the mistake of giving me that knowledge. So we lose the Geth and EDI but we can rebuild all new AI. And let's be fair, the galaxy wasn't very kind to synthetics anyway; The episode with Geth and EDI - especially when she was a rogue AI - gives us valuable knowledge on how to avoid repeating the same pitfalls.

Reapers are gone for good.
Catalyst is deleted.
We choose our own destiny and accept responsibility for our own actions.
We get a fresh start.

I still don't like the ending options or the way in which it was presented to the players but, as we're stuck with these, I'll shoot the red tube every single time.

[jahaa]

What's wrong with the EC? It is excellent. A gift for all Mass Effect fans.
But of course some people crave for disappointment, as usual.