565 réponses à ce sujet

[xsdob]

The Angry One wrote...

xsdob wrote...

How is that related, the only thing those all have in common is that the entire reaper fleet hadn't showed up and conquored all the homeworlds and most of the colonies yet.

So what? They were still Reapers. Their victory was inevitable. Sovereign and Harbinger told you so themselves.
Yet, we defied them.

This is less like that and more like refusing to open the relay at all during the final showdown in ME1 because you didn't like losing alliance soliders or the destiny ascension. Or not picking to nuke the collector base or preserve it because you don't want TIM to have it but want it kept around anyway.

[Shallyah]

The Angry One wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

Why would it bother me? Does it bother you that when you want to cause a good impression in a job interview and take a long bath, use collogne/perfume and put on your best suit/dress, and smile or appear to look more charming than you are in your regular life? And when hitting up on a boy/girl you like?

Hypocresy is powerful here.

Everyone knew the Catalyst is smooth talking you to pick Control/Synthesis from the beginning (except a few delusional people that actually thought he was some kind of truthsaying overgod). I don't know why it surprises anyone. Some people are really gullible.

Yes, because presenting one's self well and actively lying about what you are is exactly the same thing.

I already said that it's nature was obvious, but the EC made it blatant. Please read my posts before responding, thank you.

 I'm not sure what you expected from an AI which has gone rogue on its own creators and turned them into the first Reaper. I would expect disappointment from people who thought it was a "being of light" or that it was actually speaking a truth and logic so complex that you can not comprehend. But those people brought the disappointment onto themselves, they were warned over and over that the Catalyst was just another Reaper/AI trying to influence Shepard's decissions taking that shape.


In tribute to Dr. House, I'm gonna quote now: "Everybody lies"

You, me, BioWare, and definitely the Catalyst.

Modifié par Shallyah, 30 juin 2012 - 09:02 .

[Skyhawk02]

Torrible wrote...

I think that although he thought that Synthesis was the best way to end the cycle, he was unsure. Somehow he decided that Shepard was in the best position to make that choice.

Not only that, but I believe that due to a flaw in his programming the Catalyst was unable to make that choice, as seen by the rejection ending.

[The Angry One]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

There's a difference with those situations though.  Letting Saren and Sovereign execute there plan would have resulted in the death of all intellegent organic life.  Harbinger was killing thousands of humans, so stopping him saved lives too.  


Rejecting the Catalyst's decision does not save lives, it costs the lives of all intellegent organics species, whereas picking any of the other 3 options saves them.

The Catalyst was seeking synthesis. Saren was therefore not being mislead, he would've started synthesis 3 years early, Shepard wasted everyone's time.
Of course, this is mainly by synthesis supporter and BioWare logic.

But the fact remains, defiance against the odds was the theme of Mass Effect, not capitulation to the enemy because it is powerful.

[Ridwan]

xsdob wrote...

If hitler was dumb enough to but a bomb in his car and give me the detonator, well that's his own damned fault than.

Sorry austria, you will be remembered always.

And we Godwined the thread.

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

TheBlackBaron is completely correct. Refuse is putting your own pride and morals before the well-being of others, resulting in the loss of trillions of lives simply because you couldn't put aside your own sentiment for the better of the whole. Paragon Control Shep explains this in his speech; sacrificing himself to become the one who can save the many, etc.

Yeah. Just like refusing Sovereign did.
Just like battling Saren did.
Just like going on a suicide mission to stop Harbinger did.

And if Shepard didn't have the Fifth Fleet, Sovereign would have won. And if Shepard had simply walked away from Cerberus, Harbinger would have won.
Now, if you refuse to use what you need to win, the Crucible, you lose. It's quite simple.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 juin 2012 - 09:02 .

[Skyhawk02]

xsdob wrote...

This is less like that and more like refusing to open the relay at all during the final showdown in ME1 because you didn't like losing alliance soliders or the destiny ascension. Or not picking to nuke the collector base or preserve it because you don't want TIM to have it but want it kept around anyway.

Great way to put it.

[The Angry One]

Shallyah wrote...

 I'm not sure what you expected from an AI which has gone rogue on its own creators and turned them into the first Reaper. I would expect disappointment from people who thought it was a "being of light" or that it was actually speaking a truth and logic so complex that you can not comprehend. But those people brought the disappointment onto themselves, they were warned over and over that the Catalyst was just another Reaper/AI trying to influence Shepard's decissions taking that shape.


In tribute to House, I'm gonna quote him: "Everybody lies"

You, me, BioWare, and definitely the Catalyst.

Therefore, I refuse to be railroaded into following this lying, manipulating psychopath, and I want the ending that fits Mass Effect. The Catalyst needs to die.

[nicocap24]

The Angry One wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Quite the contrary. Pick Destroy. The Reapers are now gone for good. So is the Catalyst. Advanced civilization has been preserved, albeit at extreme cost to the galaxy, but preserved nonetheless. The enemy has handed to us the means to destroy him.

On it's own terms. By it's rules.

What's stopping you from doing this, again? Deciding to put your morality before the rest of the galaxy? 

Billions of innocent Geth are what's stopping me.
I wonder if you'd be so casual about destroy if it was set to kill all organics instead.

It's supposed to damage all technology, so I've considered that it may kill the quarians. I still think it's the better choice because it will end the threat once and for all. Of course I feel bad for the sacrifices that have to be made, but the Reapers need to be defeated, and as I see it, destroying them is the way to do it. If you don't like that choice, you still have control. The Catalyst will be erased and replaced by Shepard.

[TheBlackBaron]

The Angry One wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Quite the contrary. Pick Destroy. The Reapers are now gone for good. So is the Catalyst. Advanced civilization has been preserved, albeit at extreme cost to the galaxy, but preserved nonetheless. The enemy has handed to us the means to destroy him.

On it's own terms. By it's rules.

So it's petulance, then. You can't win on your terms, so you're going to let nobody win? 

What's stopping you from doing this, again? Deciding to put your morality before the rest of the galaxy? 

Billions of innocent Geth are what's stopping me.
I wonder if you'd be so casual about destroy if it was set to kill all organics instead.

If Destroy means the Geth survive while everybody else goes, so be it. Neither Control nor Synthesis is a palatable option for my headcanon Shepard.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 30 juin 2012 - 09:04 .

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

And if Shepard didn't have the Fifth Fleet, Sovereign would have won. And if Shepard had simply walked away from Cerberus, Harbinger would have won.
Now, if you refuse to use what you need to win, the Crucible, you lose. It's quite simple.

The Crucible is nothing but a Reaper trap.
What we need to win is the combined fleets of the galaxy and the destruction of the Catalyst.

[xsdob]

M25105 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

If hitler was dumb enough to but a bomb in his car and give me the detonator, well that's his own damned fault than.

Sorry austria, you will be remembered always.

And we Godwined the thread.

Your late, someone brought hitler into this by saying what if in WW2 you went into hitler's bunker and were given 3 buttons to push.

It was a while ago, they used austria as a stand in for the geth.

Modifié par xsdob, 30 juin 2012 - 09:04 .

[Ridwan]

xsdob wrote...

M25105 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

If hitler was dumb enough to but a bomb in his car and give me the detonator, well that's his own damned fault than.

Sorry austria, you will be remembered always.

And we Godwined the thread.

Your late, someone brought hitler into this by saying what if in WW2 you went into hitler's bunker and were given 3 buttons to push.

It was a while ago, they used austria as a stand in for the geth.

Ah well, point still stands.

[xsdob]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And if Shepard didn't have the Fifth Fleet, Sovereign would have won. And if Shepard had simply walked away from Cerberus, Harbinger would have won.
Now, if you refuse to use what you need to win, the Crucible, you lose. It's quite simple.

The Crucible is nothing but a Reaper trap.
What we need to win is the combined fleets of the galaxy and the destruction of the Catalyst.

good luck killing the 20,000 plus reaper fleet. 1 reaper per cycle for 1 billion years, the oldest reaper recorded.

And the crucible being a reaper trap is absurd, in game cannon disproves this.

Modifié par xsdob, 30 juin 2012 - 09:06 .

[TheBlackBaron]

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

TheBlackBaron is completely correct. Refuse is putting your own pride and morals before the well-being of others, resulting in the loss of trillions of lives simply because you couldn't put aside your own sentiment for the better of the whole. Paragon Control Shep explains this in his speech; sacrificing himself to become the one who can save the many, etc.

Yeah. Just like refusing Sovereign did.
Just like battling Saren did.
Just like going on a suicide mission to stop Harbinger did.

And if Shepard didn't have the Fifth Fleet, Sovereign would have won. And if Shepard had simply walked away from Cerberus, Harbinger would have won.
Now, if you refuse to use what you need to win, the Crucible, you lose. It's quite simple.

Well said. 

[The Angry One]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

So it's petulance, then. You can't win on your terms, so you're going to let nobody win?

You speak of petulance while promoting total obedience to a being that takes it's toys, leaves and kills everyone if you dare argue with it.

Or shoot it. Which doesn't threaten it at all. I mean, if I were a hologram it wouldn't bother me, but then I'm not a petulant psychopath like it is.

If Destroy means the Geth survive while everybody else goes, so be it. Neither Control nor Synthesis is a palatable option for my headcanon Shepard.

So let's fight genocide with more genocide! Yeehaw!
Come on now.

[KotorEffect3]

The Angry One wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Quite the contrary. Pick Destroy. The Reapers are now gone for good. So is the Catalyst. Advanced civilization has been preserved, albeit at extreme cost to the galaxy, but preserved nonetheless. The enemy has handed to us the means to destroy him.

On it's own terms. By it's rules.

What's stopping you from doing this, again? Deciding to put your morality before the rest of the galaxy? 

Billions of innocent Geth are what's stopping me.
I wonder if you'd be so casual about destroy if it was set to kill all organics instead.

Those Geth are dead anyway if you don't use the crucible.  If I had to I would even sacrifice humanity to stop the reapers.  Not just for the galactic civilizations in this cycle but also so that future civilizations won't ever have to worry about the reapers.  They have plagued the galaxy for millions upon millions of years and have destroyed countless civilizations.  It is time for it to stop.

[sAxMoNkI]

The Angry One wrote...

xsdob wrote...

How is that related, the only thing those all have in common is that the entire reaper fleet hadn't showed up and conquored all the homeworlds and most of the colonies yet.

So what? They were still Reapers. Their victory was inevitable. Sovereign and Harbinger told you so themselves.
Yet, we defied them.

Because at that point we hadn't seen just how superior the reapers were militarily. It's one thing to oppose someone who *says* they are superior, it is quite another to see the evidence of them winning all around be given a way to beat them but refuse it in the name of defiance. Morals aren't worth squat if everyone is dead...

Modifié par sAxMoNkI, 30 juin 2012 - 09:12 .

[The Angry One]

xsdob wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And if Shepard didn't have the Fifth Fleet, Sovereign would have won. And if Shepard had simply walked away from Cerberus, Harbinger would have won.
Now, if you refuse to use what you need to win, the Crucible, you lose. It's quite simple.

The Crucible is nothing but a Reaper trap.
What we need to win is the combined fleets of the galaxy and the destruction of the Catalyst.

good luck killing the 20,000 plus reaper fleet. 1 reaper per cycle for 1 billion years, the oldest reaper recorded.

And the crucible being a reaper trap is absurd, in game cannon disproves this.

Which cannot take a defended Kahje.
>500 capital ships at best. Also, with the Catalyst gone I submit that most of them would go neutral.

[Frakel]

The Angry One wrote...
So, people who like the endings now... you have no problem with...
.. the Catalyst being a deceptive manipulator?

I like the new endings.
My answer to your fine question is in this post in another thread:

"The insane ´machine-god´ is an interesting adversary and the ultimate challenge for Shepard."

[nicocap24]

The Angry One wrote...

xsdob wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And if Shepard didn't have the Fifth Fleet, Sovereign would have won. And if Shepard had simply walked away from Cerberus, Harbinger would have won.
Now, if you refuse to use what you need to win, the Crucible, you lose. It's quite simple.

The Crucible is nothing but a Reaper trap.
What we need to win is the combined fleets of the galaxy and the destruction of the Catalyst.

good luck killing the 20,000 plus reaper fleet. 1 reaper per cycle for 1 billion years, the oldest reaper recorded.

And the crucible being a reaper trap is absurd, in game cannon disproves this.

Which cannot take a defended Kahje.
>500 capital ships at best. Also, with the Catalyst gone I submit that most of them would go neutral.

I guess we'll see how Reapers behave without the Catalyst when Leviathan comes out. If it's a rogue reaper, it's probably not under the Catalyst's influence.

[Skyhawk02]

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst was seeking synthesis. Saren was therefore not being mislead, he would've started synthesis 3 years early, Shepard wasted everyone's time.
Of course, this is mainly by synthesis supporter and BioWare logic.

But the fact remains, defiance against the odds was the theme of Mass Effect, not capitulation to the enemy because it is powerful.

You're wrong about Saren, Saren was indoctrinated and therefore couldn't have initiated Synthesis.  The Catalyst says that The Illusive Man couldn't Control the reapers because he was indoctrinated so it is safe to assume the same rules applied to Saren.

And as far as the themes of Mass Effect goes, I am not a literary critic, but I would agree that beating the odds is a theme of Mass Effect.  By having Shepard be the first organic to ever activate the crucible, I think it is easy to see that Mass Effect 3's ending is consistent with this theme of beating the odds.  What Shepard does at the end has never been done before therefore by definition it is against the odds.

[xsdob]

You keep saying it is submission, but it doens't seem that way to any logical person around.

Is it submission to use the masters weapon to kill him? To strangle him with his own whip as control does? Or to call his bluff of killing him like destroy does?

[xsdob]

The Angry One wrote...

xsdob wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And if Shepard didn't have the Fifth Fleet, Sovereign would have won. And if Shepard had simply walked away from Cerberus, Harbinger would have won.
Now, if you refuse to use what you need to win, the Crucible, you lose. It's quite simple.

The Crucible is nothing but a Reaper trap.
What we need to win is the combined fleets of the galaxy and the destruction of the Catalyst.

good luck killing the 20,000 plus reaper fleet. 1 reaper per cycle for 1 billion years, the oldest reaper recorded.

And the crucible being a reaper trap is absurd, in game cannon disproves this.

Which cannot take a defended Kahje.
>500 capital ships at best. Also, with the Catalyst gone I submit that most of them would go neutral.

but you refuse to remove the catalyst, therefore it's still around to tell them what to do.

[Jackums]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Quite the contrary. Pick Destroy. The Reapers are now gone for good. So is the Catalyst. Advanced civilization has been preserved, albeit at extreme cost to the galaxy, but preserved nonetheless. The enemy has handed to us the means to destroy him.

On it's own terms. By it's rules.

So it's petulance, then. You can't win on your terms, so you're going to let nobody win?

This is what I'm getting from TAO's responses, TBH. Too much emotional involvement and dislike for the Catalyst to make a clear-headed, logical decision for the better of others.

Modifié par JackumsD, 30 juin 2012 - 09:10 .