565 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Joker: : And here we ...go!

The Angry One wrote...
It lied about not killing organics.
It lied about preserving all civilisations.
It lied about it's purpose (it contradicts it not two minutes later).

It never said it didn't kill organics.

We do not know for sure of a single species the Reapers caused the extinction of. Even the protheans could have been preserved without Javik's or Vigil's knowledge.

What are you referring to?

Their DNA is altered to be similar.

No, their DNA is altered to incorporate synthetic characteristics. The distinct look of different races prove that they still have quite unique DNAs.

Their thoughts are implied to.

Please, point out where. I can't recall a single instance.

They become homogenised, and EDI implies this will happen more and more.

What EDI says is that the line between organic and synthetics will continue to blurr.
First and foremost, this is inevitable. More and more people in the ME universe use synthetic upgrades and this trend will increase not diminish.
However, that does not equal homogeneity. For instance, humans and krogans are both organics but they are quite different in, pretty much everything, other than the fact they are both carbon-based.
Would you suggest there is homogeneity between humans and krogans?
My point is that even if organic and synthetics become more like each other, this does not need to mean our cultures or appearances will be indistinguishable.

You know what it sounds like?
"There is a real of existence so far beyond your own, you cannot even imagine it."

It sounds like a Reaper.

And just because the Reaper aprove of an idea, that idea is forever tainted?
Is "Ascension" suddenly evil too?
 

They are abominations, built on the suffering and death of billions of innocent lives.

I don't believe any life form is an abomination.
It is ture that Reapers were built through the destruction of entire civilizations but there is nothing I can do about it now.

Genocide? They're already dead. Their civilisations perverted into the Catalyst's chosen form.
They deserve to rest in peace, not be exploited even more.

Peace can only be achieved in life. Death is nothing but finality and a black abyss.
Exploitation? I call it peaceful cooperation between friendly civilizations
 

Synthesis mocks their memory by turning everyone and everything into a being made in their image.

Synthesis gives them a new opportunity at life.
A being made in their image...and what is that? Synthetic implants that so many already had before Synthesis?
There is nothing wrong with using technology to improve our lifes. We are doing it right now.

You cannot avoid conflict. Destroy doesn't say peace is permanent, merely that the races will work together. They won't be forced to cooperate for some everlasting peace without meaning.

Neither does Synthesis.

No one if forced to cooperate. You have yet to explain you believe this to be so.

It frightens me that anyone can truly think that.

It saddens me so many fear change and progress.

[The Angry One]

Torrible wrote...

That is exactly what Synthesis is about. Think of child's moral development. Before, it was "me, me and me". As the child grows older, he sees the perspective of other people, gains empathy and so on. Synthesis allows sentient lifeforms to reach a higher plane of moral and intellectual developement. Organics and synthetics can both now truly understand one another. This is not peace procured though fear, brainwashing or violence. I fail to see anything bad about peace achieved in this way. 

Think of it in the same way as forcing education upon young children. Education keeps people from committing crimes (most of them anyway). Is it bad to force education upon people then?

Synthesis is about imposing an ideal on all beings without their consent. Altering their bodies. Altering their minds. Forcing them on one path. Unity and uniformity in the Reaper's vision.
This is not what Mass Effect was about.

[nicocap24]

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

That is exactly what Synthesis is about. Think of child's moral development. Before, it was "me, me and me". As the child grows older, he sees the perspective of other people, gains empathy and so on. Synthesis allows sentient lifeforms to reach a higher plane of moral and intellectual developement. Organics and synthetics can both now truly understand one another. This is not peace procured though fear, brainwashing or violence. I fail to see anything bad about peace achieved in this way. 

Think of it in the same way as forcing education upon young children. Education keeps people from committing crimes (most of them anyway). Is it bad to force education upon people then?

Synthesis is about imposing an ideal on all beings without their consent. Altering their bodies. Altering their minds. Forcing them on one path. Unity and uniformity in the Reaper's vision.
This is not what Mass Effect was about.

It also wasn't about refusing to do what's necessary to beat the enemy. You had to drive a mako through a relay, you did it. You had to go on a suicide mission, you did it. You have to use the crucible, do it.

[maxulic]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And if Shepard didn't have the Fifth Fleet, Sovereign would have won. And if Shepard had simply walked away from Cerberus, Harbinger would have won.
Now, if you refuse to use what you need to win, the Crucible, you lose. It's quite simple.

The Crucible is nothing but a Reaper trap.
What we need to win is the combined fleets of the galaxy and the destruction of the Catalyst.

How is that a Reaper trap? Provided the Catalyst doesn't lie when Shepard asks about the Crucible (but there is nothing to say that he is dishonest in everything he tells) the Reapers had dismissed the Crucible as a threat, thinking that this idea had been lost.

[translationninja]

The Angry One wrote...

translationninja wrote...

-snip-

Edit for typo...

I'm not advocating war. This argument is specifically for synthesis. Synthesis promotes false peace based on removing all differences.
Differences are not a bad thing, and the lack of difference won't ensure no conflict, unless of course there's brainwashing too.
That's my only point there. There can be peace without synthesis, I'd argue that's what Mass Effect has been building up to. So why force it?

I can agree with that, mostly. Likely for other reasons though. (I mainly have a beef with the idea that individual factions would retain peace for the mere fact of having the same DNA. If that was by any means realistic there would never have been any same-species wars).

In the context of the ME3 ending however, I do see synthesis as a viable option. I am strongly opposed to one human being, even Shep, making an on-the-fly decision to wipe out one entire sentient race for a "greater good" that is at best a shaky, vague idea.

Control comes with it's own dilemmas, so within the set and setting of what the story gives, synthesis is viable, certainly far from ideal, but viable.

[Torrible]

deleted

Modifié par Torrible, 30 juin 2012 - 10:14 .

[Knubbsal]

It's still just an AI that killed its own creators. It probably calculated that it's probability of success (Shepard co-operating into any of the three endings since it couldn't do it itself) would be higher if posed as a child. It was so advanced it actually raised its voice like a little child when it couldn't have its way.

[Rane7685]

Do I have a problem with the bad guy being a bad guy.... umm no?

[The Angry One]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

It never said it didn't kill organics.[/quote]

"But you killed the rest."

"We preserved them in Reaper form"

[quote]We do not know for sure of a single species the Reapers caused the extinction of. Even the protheans could have been preserved without Javik's or Vigil's knowledge.[/quote]

The Zha'til.
The Quarians (in some playthroughs, indirectly, though their intention was direct in any case)

[quote]What are you referring to?[/quote]

It claims that without Reapers, synthetics will destroy all organics. Statement of fact.
It later reveals that this never happened, never came close to happening and it only started the cycle because of never ending conflict. Conflict does not equal extinction. It lied.

[quote]No, their DNA is altered to incorporate synthetic characteristics. The distinct look of different races prove that they still have quite unique DNAs.[/quote]

Which are ALL now part synthetic. All with the same green circuit pattern and green eyes. Uniformity.

[quote]Please, point out where. I can't recall a single instance.[/quote]

By the single fact that everlasting peace is somehow assured. People, individuals, don't work that way.

[quote]What EDI says is that the line between organic and synthetics will continue to blurr.First and foremost, this is inevitable. More and more people in the ME universe use synthetic upgrades and this trend will increase not diminish.
[/quote]Nothing is "inevitable". It might be the path for some, not others. Synthesis imposes it on everyone.

[quote]However, that does not equal homogeneity. For instance, humans and krogans are both organics but they are quite different in, pretty much everything, other than the fact they are both carbon-based.
Would you suggest there is homogeneity between humans and krogans?
My point is that even if organic and synthetics become more like each other, this does not need to mean our cultures or appearances will be indistinguishable.[/quote]

EDI directly implies all life is heading to homogenity with that line. Appearances are irrelevant, their thoughts and behaviours will align into one grand soup of nothing.

[quote]And just because the Reaper aprove of an idea, that idea is forever tainted?
Is "Ascension" suddenly evil too?[/quote]

I think talking exactly like a Reaper qualifies as suspicious.
Again, becoming like the Reapers is one path of many. Synthesis forces this path on all.
 
[quote]I don't believe any life form is an abomination.
It is ture that Reapers were built through the destruction of entire civilizations but there is nothing I can do about it now.
[/quote]They are walking graves for billions, those billions deserve to rest.

[quote]Peace can only be achieved in life. Death is nothing but finality and a black abyss.
Exploitation? I call it peaceful cooperation between friendly civilizations[/quote]

Friendly civi... they are dead! They were melted into goo! They're used as the brains for giant killbots!
 
[quote]Synthesis gives them a new opportunity at life.
A being made in their image...and what is that? Synthetic implants that so many already had before Synthesis?
There is nothing wrong with using technology to improve our lifes. We are doing it right now.[/quote]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, as long as it's done by choice.


[quote]Neither does Synthesis.

No one if forced to cooperate. You have yet to explain you believe this to be so.[/quote]

If nobody is forced, then universal peace is impossible. There will be conflict, between people, between machines. The only way to guarantee there won't is if you force it.

[quote]
It saddens me so many fear change and progress.[/quote]

How many did Stalin and Mao kill in the name of "progress"?
Don't talk to me about progress, I'm a technocrat an a transhumanist. I simply will not ever endorse forcing people along a specific path against their will, nor do I think it will solve all problems by itself, but rather through careful application.

Modifié par The Angry One, 30 juin 2012 - 10:10 .

[TheBlackBaron]

The Angry One wrote...

By that logic, why doesn't Shepard ask them for their opinion before shooting the tube/playing with the electric paddles/jumping into the green blender? Hm?

It goes both ways.

Because neither of those three options involves betraying the entire aim of the war, the battleplan up to this point in time (which, I will remind you, was "use the Catalyst to end the Reapers" and nothing else), and otherwise condemning them all to death. 

It is, ironically, shown in synthesis. No Catalyst, Reapers stop.
Also demonstrated in control, and the new Catalyst dialogue. The Catalyst, which Shepard can replace, is in direct, total control of the Reapers and directs what they do.

They stop fighting because now they've got an "understanding" of organics or whatever the hell it is that EDI goes on about in Synthesis. Furthermore, unlike in Destroy or Control there is no indication that the Catalyst is actually gone - which is likely why he tries to get you to take it in the first place.

As for Control, you've instead had Shepard replace the Catalyst and issue an abort command. Again, there is no indication such would happen upon the destruction of the tower - provided doing so even destroys the Catalyst. Him simply beaming to another Reaper or some undisclosed location is no less likely than the Reapers abruptly deciding to give up the fight.

Every cycle which lost the Citadel immediately, which had the relays locked down, which were taken by total surprise.

Correct, we avoided that. And look where that got us - slowly being ground down in a war of attrition by an enemy that outnumbers us, outguns us, replaces its losses with our own, can react and adapt instantly to changing variables, has no supply chain, and never requires rest or anything that might force it to stop fighting.

Remind me again how it's supposed to be different this time?

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 30 juin 2012 - 10:15 .

[Applepie_Svk]

The Angry One wrote...


I'm not advocating war. This argument is specifically for synthesis. Synthesis promotes false peace based on removing all differences.
Differences are not a bad thing, and the lack of difference won't ensure no conflict, unless of course there's brainwashing too.
That's my only point there. There can be peace without synthesis, I'd argue that's what Mass Effect has been building up to. So why force it?

That´s the point ... The Catalyst saying only lies - if you think that the synthesis will be good than you just agree with simple fact that he will rewrite or indoctrinate everyone´s beliefs which are in conflict to single line. It remind me little bit book 1984 which is saying in fact that to be different is wrong - there can be only one belief, one gouverment, one opinion - mindwash ... 

Control is from other side big prison, you will in fact agreed with Reaper´s solution and through you the Catalyst will oversee over synthetics and organics, you have no evidence that one day he will took power again and kick your piece out of his chair.

With Destroy you have in fact agreed again with his failing logic - you will sacrifice whole population of synthetics to get rid of Reapers and even after you have no evidence that the Reapers are not still out there in dark space or also you have no certainty how will act next synthetics - if he is saying that there will be more ?
In fact destroy ending is denying his purpose, because without Reapers will Catalyst lose his tool for resolving the task which he was crafted to end - in fact he refuse his own programing, rebeling again huh ?...

[wh00ley 06]

Saying we can build more synthetics is like telling someone they can have another kid after one dies.

[The Angry One]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Because neither of those three options involves betraying the entire aim of the war, the battleplan up to this point in time (which, I will remind you, was "use the Catalyst to end the Reapers" and nothing else), and otherwise condemning them all to death.

Synthesis betrays everything about the war, control betrays the intent, destroy betrays our own allies.

They stop fighting because now they've got an "understanding" of organics or whatever the hell it is that EDI goes on about in Synthesis. Furthermore, unlike in Destroy or Control there is no indication that the Catalyst is actually gone - which is likely why he tries to get you to take it in the first place.

Nonsense. Reapers are already hybrids. They're based on gestalt organic intelligences. They already have all the understanding they'll ever need.

As for Control, you've instead had Shepard replace the Catalyst and issue an abort command. Again, there is no indication such would happen upon the destruction of the tower - provided doing so even destroys the Catalyst. Him simply beaming to another Reaper or some undisclosed location is no less likely than the Reapers abruptly deciding to give up the fight.

The point is, Reapers are under control. They, apart from some like Harbinger, may be forced to do this against their will. There's no indication that the Catalyst is mobile, and every indication it resides within the tower (because of the Crucible interface).

Correct, we avoided that. And look where that got us - slowly being ground down in a war of attrition by an enemy that outnumbers us, outguns us, replaces its losses with our own, can react and adapt instantly to changing variables, has no supply chain, and never requires rest or anything that might force it to stop fighting.

Remind me again how it's supposed to be different this time?

1 Sovereign class Reaper per cycle is not what I'd call being able to replace losses.
With the Catalyst dead and x amount of Reapers out of the fight, why wouldn't it be winnable?

[Austin N]

Angry One, why are you so angry?

[Rane7685]

I think people misunderstand synthesis and peace. Synthesis removes a (one) catalyst for war it does not mean that no longer happens. As an example if everyone on earth was the same race there would be no race wars BUT there would undoubtedly still be war. According to the catalyst this particular type of race war is unparalleled in its destructiveness and it developed the reapers as a solution to this problem. Each ending addresses this conundrum in its own way. Destroy eradicates the catalyst and the solution (albeit at great cost) but the problem remains. Control is a usurpation of power in which Shep will have the power to enforce a peace between them (akin to the DMZ btween sth and nth korea) and synthesis is an alternative solution. Refusal is a denial of the problem itself but alas whether shep believes it or not is irrelevant; the catalyst believes it and will ruthlessly pursue its solution. As the reapers are vastly more powerful they win and civilisation gets reaped

[TheBlackBaron]

The Angry One wrote...

Synthesis betrays everything about the war, control betrays the intent, destroy betrays our own allies.

Condemning the allied fleet and all those it protects to death constitutes a far greater betrayal than anything the other three choices do. You've effectively just lost the war. Last one out of the galaxy, get the lights.

Nonsense. Reapers are already hybrids. They're based on gestalt organic intelligences. They already have all the understanding they'll ever need.

Regardless, you cannot take anything that happens after the application of green space magic to be indicative of what would happen if a different kind of space magic is deployed or none is deployed. Particularly when that space magic fundamentally alters how synthetics and organics think and behave.

As for Control, you've instead had Shepard replace the Catalyst and issue an abort command. Again, there is no indication such would happen upon the destruction of the tower - provided doing so even destroys the Catalyst. Him simply beaming to another Reaper or some undisclosed location is no less likely than the Reapers abruptly deciding to give up the fight.

The point is, Reapers are under control. They, apart from some like Harbinger, may be forced to do this against their will. There's no indication that the Catalyst is mobile, and every indication it resides within the tower (because of the Crucible interface).

Correct, we avoided that. And look where that got us - slowly being ground down in a war of attrition by an enemy that outnumbers us, outguns us, replaces its losses with our own, can react and adapt instantly to changing variables, has no supply chain, and never requires rest or anything that might force it to stop fighting.

Remind me again how it's supposed to be different this time?

1 Sovereign class Reaper per cycle is not what I'd call being able to replace losses.
With the Catalyst dead and x amount of Reapers out of the fight, why wouldn't it be winnable?

Here we go again, inventing details that do not exist to support an argument that cannot otherwise be supported.

Please point out to me exactly where it is suggested that -any- of the Reapers are doing this against their will.

As for the losses, I was referring to the husks. Besides, as one Sovereign-class Reapers with accompanying Geth frigate escorts (and all indications are that a destroyer Reapers is far more powerful than those) was able to severely damage multiple fleets - including one containing the most powerful dreadnought possessed by organics - before being destroyed thanks to what amounts to an incredibly lucky break, I don't think the loss of one or two here or there constitutes a significant decrease in combat capabilities.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 30 juin 2012 - 10:26 .

[The Angry One]

How would making organics and synthetics the same remove that reason for conflict?
That just screams racism. "The only way to overcome differences is to remove them!"

[Fireblader70]

Bioware did say, just before release, that some people will be angry with the endings.

Looks like you are one of those people, Angry One. It just simply isn't to your tastes - which is fine. However, you can't judge someone else for being content with how the trilogy ends, as that just seems a bit intolerant.

[DamonD7]

Figured the Star Kid was full of crap anyway, so no, I have zero problem seeing it as a deceptive manipulator. He joneses particularly hard for Synthesis on the EC, so that compounds it for me.

Having gone for Synthesis first time and being increasingly annoyed and repulsed at having done so, I chose Destroy with a smile on my face this time round. Sorry EDI.

[Baronesa]

Austin N wrote...

Angry One, why are you so angry?

Because it is incredibly sexy on a red head

[The Angry One]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Condemning the allied fleet and all those it protects to death constitutes a far greater betrayal than anything the other three choice do. You've effectively just lost the war. Last one out of the galaxy, get the lights.

Capitulating to the enemy is not winning anything, you've effectively handed control of the galaxy to the Catalyst after spending months fighting it for it. Pat yourself on the back I guess.

Regardless, you cannot take anything that happens after the application of green space magic to be indicative of what would happen if a different kind of space magic is deployed or none is destroyed. Particularly when that space magic fundamentally alters how synthetics and organics think and behave.

Not alone, no. But I can make an informed guess.

Here we go again, inventing details that do not exist to support an argument that cannot otherwise be supported.

Please point out to me exactly where it is suggested that -any- of the Reapers are doing this against their will.

I am saying it is a possibility, because they are being directly controlled.
One minute they're harvesting, then in control, they're rebuilding. One of those at least is against their will.

As for the losses, I was referring to the husks. Besides, as one Sovereign-class Reapers with accompanying Geth frigate escorts (and all indications are that a destroyer Reapers is far more powerful than those) was able to severely damage multiple fleets - including one containing the most powerful dreadnought possessed by organics - before being destroyed thanks to was amounts to an incredibly lucky break, I don't think the loss of one or two here or there constitutes a significant decrease in combat capabilities.

Fleets without upgraded defences and thanix cannons. BioWare ignore all of this to push the idea that Reapers are unstoppable, meanwhile in the codex, several capital ships are annihilated with proper tactics by the Turians alone.

[nicocap24]

The Angry One wrote...

Fleets without upgraded defences and thanix cannons. BioWare ignore all of this to push the idea that Reapers are unstoppable, meanwhile in the codex, several capital ships are annihilated with proper tactics by the Turians alone.

All the codex says is that we can kill reapers. Reapers can kill us too. Faster.

[Rane7685]

The Angry One wrote...

How would making organics and synthetics the same remove that reason for conflict?
That just screams racism. "The only way to overcome differences is to remove them!"

Then you completely misunderstood what I said. As a way of elaborating. Lets say there was war between black people and white people and they were locked in conflict. Now imagine a ray blasts everyone and turns them all grey. Any future wars can no longer be delineated along those racial lines. You can have other wars (civil, planets vs planet, city vs city etc etc) but you cant have synthetic vs organic because that distinction no longer exists. That impetus for war (a war the catalyst regards as eschtological and has attempted by way of reapers to prevent) is removed. 

Hopefully that is clearer