565 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Angry One wrote...
And then it says "We helped them ascend". Not some of them, all of them. Not forced, helped.
It lies.[/quote]
It doesn't lie. Its perspective differ from ours.

[quote]
The Reapers took control of the Zha'til and made them overtake the Zha, effectively killing them. Count 1.
The Reapers then forced the monsters they created to attack the Protheans, forcing the Protheans to blow up their sun. Count 2, indirectly.

As told by Javik on the Geth dreadnought.[/quote]
None of that precludes their preservation. The Reapers also force our dead to fight against us but that doesn't mean we're extinct. The protheans might have killed only those the Reapers deemed unworthy of preservation.

[quote]
If the Reapers had not taken control of the Geth, then the Quarians would've exterminated the Geth.
The Reapers interfered and placed the Quarians in danger.[/quote]
The quarians put themselves in danger the minute they started a war.

[quote]Except organics don't always lose. See above. See the Zha'til. See the Metacon war. See that the Reaper's creators were powerful enough to create the Reapers in the first place, and attempt to use them for peace instead of winning any wars.[/quote]
Neither the geth nor the Zha'til were true AIs, simply extremely advanced VIs. When the geth gained true sentience, then the quarians didn't stood a chance.
We don't know enough about the Metacon War. For instance, were the protheans fighting true AIs? And would they have really been able to win the war had the Reapers not appeared?
And the organics who created the Reapers were defeated by an AI, weren't them?

[quote]All the same, all in common. Sounds like uniformity to me.[/quote]
In as much as humans and krogans both having a skeleton is uniformity.


[quote]As long as they're a Reaper.[/quote]
A Reaper is the conjoined minds of billions of organics who lost their bodies.
An upgrade human is just that, an upgraded human.

[quote]Who can choose? Nobody can choose! That's the whole point.
Also, are you seriously, seriously promoting the idea that those who don't upgrade/organics should be treated as lower class? Guess I shouldn't be surprised.[/quote]
I'm not saying they should be. I'm saying they will be. It's inevitable just like it's inevitable that those with more money have more privileges.

[quote]
You can't have it both ways. You can't have everyone "transcend thought" and still be individuals with individual cultures.[/quote]
"Trascend tought"? What do you mean?

[quote]Never would I think to see the day when people would call Reaper philosophy hopeful.[/quote]
Because limitless knowledge, surpassing previous civilizations and advance to a point where we can't even imagine is Reaper philosophy and bad somehow?

[quote]
Turians were not made with billions of people melted into goo while screaming for mercy.[/quote]
And I can't do anything about what they suffered. I can, however, give them a second chance at life.


[quote]Why? Because you say so? Maintaining their existence is a complete mockery of life.
Especially in this manner. [/quote]
Because you can decide what does and does not constitute as life? Free them from the Catalyst and then those who want to die, can do so.
Because no, there is no indication they are enslaved by the organics after Synthesis.
 
[quote]
The same way people choose not to drive cars, or use computers, or watch TV.
What's good for you is not good for everyone else.[/quote]
But some things are bad for everyone like unemployment.


[quote]
That can be achieved without synthesis. It is unecesarry.[/quote]
Can it? How was peace achieved between geth and quarians. The geth were given upgrades that allowed them to compete with the quarians as well as a greater understanding of life.
Does that sound familiar? Oh right, it's just like Synthesis.


[quote]Control is autocratic, synthesis is a false utopia.[/quote]
You're missing the point. All Paragon endings presume themselves an utopia, not just Synthesis.


[quote]My point is that progress for progress' sake alone gets you nowhere.[/quote]
Please clarify.

[quote]Also, synthesis kills all organic and synthetic life, permanently. Replacing them with a new life form.[/quote]
It changes them but no one died. It's not like being a pure organic or synthetic has any inherent value.

[quote] Then how can you support forcing synthesis? Even the Catalyst says it can't be forced.. yet it can?
[/quote]
Synthesis is the first step in the path towards lasting peace, that is all. I agree that it's not a "Press Button for Utopia."
In order to build the Crucible to the point where it can perform Synthesis, the galactic races had to winllingly cooperate. This union could not be forced.
Or at least that is how I interpretated it.

[Clayless]

Seeing as though this observation changes nothing, no.

[ImperatorMortis]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Oh. I'm sorry.

You don't get sarcasm then. Terrific.

Oh irony. How I love thee. 

Joe Del Toro wrote...Why do you then go on to imply you're gonna carry on bothering me?

Seriously. Go away.

 

Fine. Man you're no fun. 

[Uncle Jo]

The Angry One wrote...

.. the Catalyst being a deceptive manipulator?

Setting aside the exact nature of the functions of the WarCrime-O-Matic Crucible, let's look at the reject ending.
Specifically, "SO BE IT." Now, yes. We already know pretty much that it is a Reaper/Reaper intelligence/Harbinger/3rd Reaper from the right/whatever. However, it actually voicing itself that way provides a visceral insight into what it truly is.

The point is, why does it speak to you with the form and voice of a human child the rest of the time?
Sovereign and Harbinger were nothing if not frank in everything they said. This was in a way refreshing. They never pretended to be something they weren't (Collector General aside, it still used the same voice and manner of speech).
The Catalyst hides everything it is and everything it does behind a layer of deceit. It paints itself as something completely foreign to what it really is - an innocent child. This on top of it's sugar-coating of it's incredible crimes.

So I have to know, out of curiosity. Does this not bother you? Does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth knowing that when this being is challenged, it reverts to it's "true" voice? That it maintains a facade for as long as Shepard plays nice with it?

I agree with you. I always thought that he was a liar (his dossier of the last billions of year is largely telling about his indoctrinating/manipulating abilities, amongst other nice hobbies like torture, mutilation, mass murder and forced genetic experiment) if not Harbinger himself. His voice change only strenghtens this to me.

I've never given into the crappy reasons he gave to justify his war crimes : a probable tech singularity, which outcome is absolutely unknown. The Reapers are in fact the good guys, the Synthetics are "EVIL" and will always wipe out organics. Sure, whatever...

The EC didn't make it better one bit.

- The analogy "Reaper=Fire" made me laugh hard.

- "I'm the catalyst for peace between the organics and synthetics".
Really ? That's why you messed with the Geth ? Or indoctrinated the Rachni, waging a war which could have wiped out the whole Galaxy ?

- "Your beliefs are not required". Fine.

That's why I still shoot him in the head again, again and again. And as I've read somewhere else:

the Brat : So be it".
Shep : "So bring it".

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 30 juin 2012 - 12:42 .

[KingZayd]

MisterJB wrote...

Neither the geth nor the Zha'til were true AIs, simply extremely advanced VIs. When the geth gained true sentience, then the quarians didn't stood a chance.
We don't know enough about the Metacon War. For instance, were the protheans fighting true AIs? And would they have really been able to win the war had the Reapers not appeared?
And the organics who created the Reapers were defeated by an AI, weren't them?

Then how can you support forcing synthesis? Even the Catalyst says it can't be forced.. yet it can?

Synthesis is the first step in the path towards lasting peace, that is all. I agree that it's not a "Press Button for Utopia."
In order to build the Crucible to the point where it can perform Synthesis, the galactic races had to winllingly cooperate. This union could not be forced.
Or at least that is how I interpretated it.

How are the Geth and the Zha'til not true AIs? They were intelligent and they were synthetic. They demonstrated clear decision making ability, and are able to respond to change.

The Reapers could have built the Crucible in the past themselves. There. Forced.

[Gorkan86]

The Zha'til was partially synthetics, maybe like Shepard, but not like Geth.

[Uncle Jo]

Gorkan86 wrote...

The Zha'til was partially synthetics, maybe like Shepard, but not like Geth.

Javik said that the machines assumed direct control of their "hosts" though.

[ImperatorMortis]

JohnTheJohn wrote...

Nope. Why do you insist on wallowing in negativity here?

They have nothing else? 

[Clayless]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

JohnTheJohn wrote...

Nope. Why do you insist on wallowing in negativity here?

They have nothing else? 

Outside life/something positive other than the forums of a game they hate?

[MisterJB]

KingZayd wrote...
How are the Geth and the Zha'til not true AIs? They were intelligent and they were synthetic. They demonstrated clear decision making ability, and are able to respond to change.

It is said multiple times in all games how geth are not true AIs. Their processing capabilities can't match, for instance, that of EDI unless over a thousand of geth programs work together in a single unit.
Thus, EDI is a true AI, the geth are not until Reaper code comes into play. 

The Reapers could have built the Crucible in the past themselves. There. Forced.

And organics and synthetics would tear each other apart. The crucible allows for peace but there needs to be an actual effort on the part of the affected.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Nice to have you back Angry One. I still don't like the new ending because that bothered me, hence my new sig.

[ImperatorMortis]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

JohnTheJohn wrote...

Nope. Why do you insist on wallowing in negativity here?

They have nothing else? 

Outside life/something positive other than the forums of a game they hate?

I guess. I don't really get why someone would spend all this time on the forums of they game they despise, and giving the same argument over, and over for months. 

Maybe they just need people to help fuel their distate? To need to reafirm the fact that tney're not the only ones? 
Maybe some people just like being angry? 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 30 juin 2012 - 12:55 .

[Fieryeel]

It didn't bother me.

I like the endings.

[KingZayd]

MisterJB wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
How are the Geth and the Zha'til not true AIs? They were intelligent and they were synthetic. They demonstrated clear decision making ability, and are able to respond to change.

It is said multiple times in all games how geth are not true AIs. Their processing capabilities can't match, for instance, that of EDI unless over a thousand of geth programs work together in a single unit.
Thus, EDI is a true AI, the geth are not until Reaper code comes into play. 

The Reapers could have built the Crucible in the past themselves. There. Forced.

And organics and synthetics would tear each other apart. The crucible allows for peace but there needs to be an actual effort on the part of the affected.

Less powerful AI does not mean, not AI. Where is it stated theat the Geth are not true AI?
Same for the Zha'til?

And why would the Organics and Synthetics tear each other apart? They would be Organo-Synthetic hybids now, wouldn't they?

You can still carry out Synthesis if you've already killed the Geth can't you? No effort to bring peace between organics and synthetics required.

[Clayless]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

I guess. I don't really get why someone would spend all this time on the forums of they game they despise, and giving the same argument over, and over for months. 

Maybe they just need people to help fuel their distate? To need to reafirm the fact that tney're not the only ones? 
Maybe some people just like being angry? 

You don't get why people would spend months, day in day out, saying things like "lots of speculation" and "space magic!" over and over again?

Yeah, neither do I.

[Cutlass Jack]

The Angry One wrote...

So I have to know, out of curiosity. Does this not bother you? Does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth knowing that when this being is challenged, it reverts to it's "true" voice? That it maintains a facade for as long as Shepard plays nice with it?

Did you at any point during that think the Kid was really its true form? I thought it rather obvious the entire time he was picking images from Shepard's head. Such could equally be true about the other voice. I'm pretty sure the Catalyst's "true" voice doesnt speak english.

So no it doesnt bother me any more than the Rachni Queen talking in a Krogan voice instead of an Asari one the second time we meet.

It gave you the chance to change the cycle, you reject it. So be it. Back to work then.

[MisterJB]

KingZayd wrote...
Less powerful AI does not mean, not AI. Where is it stated theat the Geth are not true AI?

Just talk with Tali in ME1. She tells you they are not true AI.
Or you could read ME: Revelation where Anderson says the same.

Same for the Zha'til?

Javik flat out calls them VIs

And why would the Organics and Synthetics tear each other apart? They would be Organo-Synthetic hybids now, wouldn't they?

No. Synthetics and organics are affected differently. Organics are given synthetic upgrades which gives them the possibility to rely less on synthetics and compete with them and synthetics are given the ability to understand organics and feel actual emotions.
That doesn't mean the organics can't use the new upgrades for war and that synthetics can't simply choose to ignore the new knowledge.
Synthesis just takes the first steps towards peace, unless the races are willing to follow through, it will fail.

You can still carry out Synthesis if you've already killed the Geth can't you? No effort to bring peace between organics and synthetics required.

True and I believe this is a fault withing the game. Synthesis is the ending hardest to get so, logically, this would suggest Shepard would either have to be incredibly cunning or encourage peace and cooperation between the different races to gain the EMS needed to earn this ending.
Unfortunately, this can all be avoided if you just play enough Multiplayer.

[Own-u-4-life]

Bump

[Jonathan Sud]

I knew that sonuvabeech was a Reaper since day one! I was so happy when I heard his true voice, but also terrified at the same time!

[Uncle Jo]

MisterJB wrote...

No. Synthetics and organics are affected differently. Organics are given synthetic upgrades which gives them the possibility to rely less on synthetics and compete with them and synthetics are given the ability to understand organics and feel actual emotions.
That doesn't mean the organics can't use the new upgrades for war and that synthetics can't simply choose to ignore the new knowledge.
Synthesis just takes the first steps towards peace, unless the races are willing to follow through, it will fail.

Accurate description. Outcome unknown. Reapers still hanging around.

True and I believe this is a fault withing the game. Synthesis is the ending hardest to get so, logically, this would suggest Shepard would either have to be incredibly cunning or encourage peace and cooperation between the different races to gain the EMS needed to earn this ending.
Unfortunately, this can all be avoided if you just play enough Multiplayer.

Shepard was fighting from the very beginning to achieve peace between the different races and preserve their identity. And was successful without forcibly changing them. You need the highest EMS to see the breathing scene.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 30 juin 2012 - 01:23 .

[KingZayd]

MisterJB wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Less powerful AI does not mean, not AI. Where is it stated theat the Geth are not true AI?

Just talk with Tali in ME1. She tells you they are not true AI.
Or you could read ME: Revelation where Anderson says the same.

Same for the Zha'til?

Javik flat out calls them VIs

And why would the Organics and Synthetics tear each other apart? They would be Organo-Synthetic hybids now, wouldn't they?

No. Synthetics and organics are affected differently. Organics are given synthetic upgrades which gives them the possibility to rely less on synthetics and compete with them and synthetics are given the ability to understand organics and feel actual emotions.
That doesn't mean the organics can't use the new upgrades for war and that synthetics can't simply choose to ignore the new knowledge.
Synthesis just takes the first steps towards peace, unless the races are willing to follow through, it will fail.

You can still carry out Synthesis if you've already killed the Geth can't you? No effort to bring peace between organics and synthetics required.

True and I believe this is a fault withing the game. Synthesis is the ending hardest to get so, logically, this would suggest Shepard would either have to be incredibly cunning or encourage peace and cooperation between the different races to gain the EMS needed to earn this ending.
Unfortunately, this can all be avoided if you just play enough Multiplayer.

Javik, the Quarians and Anderson have all displayed anti-synthetic attitudes. How about something from the actual AIs themselves?

How are the Reapers affected? And how are the synthetics given "understanding of Organics and emotions"?

[Gorkan86]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

The Zha'til was partially synthetics, maybe like Shepard, but not like Geth.

Javik said that the machines assumed direct control of their "hosts" though.

This was done through the implants. It implants were carriers of the AI.​​

[Uncle Jo]

Gorkan86 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

The Zha'til was partially synthetics, maybe like Shepard, but not like Geth.

Javik said that the machines assumed direct control of their "hosts" though.

This was done through the implants. It implants were carriers of the AI.​​

Right. But Shepard wasn't controlled by her implants. So sure the Zha'til weren't built like the Geth, but still are "synthetics" (AI commands the body)

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 30 juin 2012 - 01:43 .

[Festilence]

The Angry One wrote...

.. the Catalyst being a deceptive manipulator?

Setting aside the exact nature of the functions of the WarCrime-O-Matic Crucible, let's look at the reject ending.
Specifically, "SO BE IT." Now, yes. We already know pretty much that it is a Reaper/Reaper intelligence/Harbinger/3rd Reaper from the right/whatever. However, it actually voicing itself that way provides a visceral insight into what it truly is.

The point is, why does it speak to you with the form and voice of a human child the rest of the time?
Sovereign and Harbinger were nothing if not frank in everything they said. This was in a way refreshing. They never pretended to be something they weren't (Collector General aside, it still used the same voice and manner of speech).
The Catalyst hides everything it is and everything it does behind a layer of deceit. It paints itself as something completely foreign to what it really is - an innocent child. This on top of it's sugar-coating of it's incredible crimes.

So I have to know, out of curiosity. Does this not bother you? Does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth knowing that when this being is challenged, it reverts to it's "true" voice? That it maintains a facade for as long as Shepard plays nice with it?

It is interesting to think about whether something should be read into the fact that the Catalyst's Voice suddenly becomes "Reaperised" when you Reject him, however I must say it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't decided to do this simply because it sounds a lot cooler and/or to emphasise the fact that because you aren't going to use the Crucible, you're screwed (at least in the Catalysts' opinion).