565 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And that should be an option, certainly.
I take issue with punishing those of us who reject it's manipulations.

I don't think I said anything about creating a new option, I was talking about the options we already have.  Since we know that the Catalyst is Powerful and Manipulative, why wouldn't he punish you for rejecting his manipulations?  Do you expect him to just roll over and die because you disagree with him?  No way, he is going to fight back until he finds someone else who is more easily manipulated.

The problem is we don't fight back. Shepard says one hell of an epic speech, Starbrat get's mad, Reapers start to fight harder and what does Shepard do? She get's a sadface and screen turns to black. Had there been varritions, cutscenes ect for Refuse it would be better. Instead we get a lazy done thing while having an epic speech ,everything else is horrible done.

[Tommyspa]

The Angry One wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

Morality means little in war and you can't prove the catalyst is being manipulative or truthful.

It proves that itself by it's behaviour.
In the end, what did we fight for if not our ideals, to be free of the Reapers? Not to bow down to them at the last minute.

No it does not, it proves you think that on your own. It is not universally implied as fact of its nature.
None of the endings show us bending to the reapers will. They all end with the reapers being dead, controlled or just like us removing their function of harvesting being required. Not even remotely under their thumb at any time. Even in refuse the reapers end up defeated because of Liara's capsule.

[The Angry One]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

I would have a problem if the Catalyst was a benevolent being that you're not supposed to question... which is what it was before the EC. I actually like the fact that he's a jackass.

Exactly, I really liked his dialogue in the EC, it really revealed a lot more about his personality.  Now that we know he isn't being totally honest with us or himself, we have a much more interesting choice to make.

But our only choices is, cooperate with the omnicidal monster - or die.
This is why it bothers me, because it appears to me that we're essentially being told we must do the bidding of the manipulative villain - or else.

[Zanallen]

The Angry One wrote...

It is a Reaper. It's true voice is that of a Reaper's.
Of course that voice is chosen and synthesized too, but it's one common to all of them.
Moreover, it only uses this voice in anger, in a moment where you can see it loses self-composure, furious that you reject it's choices. That's very telling.

It isn't a Reaper. It is an AI that oversees the Reapers.

[Skyhawk02]

The Angry One wrote...

Of course. He would seek to punish us. The problem is, the game lets him. Shepard just stands there and does nothing.

Well sure, I would agree that Shepard should try to fight back, I didn't know that he didn't in that ending.  Of course fighting the reapers conventionally is futile but Shepard should still try.  Does he just stand there and let the Catalyst kill him?  Because if that's what happens then you're right that's pretty stupid.

[Mr.House]

Tommyspa wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

Morality means little in war and you can't prove the catalyst is being manipulative or truthful.

It proves that itself by it's behaviour.
In the end, what did we fight for if not our ideals, to be free of the Reapers? Not to bow down to them at the last minute.

No it does not, it proves you think that on your own. It is not universally implied as fact of its nature.
None of the endings show us bending to the reapers will. They all end with the reapers being dead, controlled or just like us removing their function of harvesting being required. Not even remotely under their thumb at any time. Even in refuse the reapers end up defeated because of Liara's capsule.

Nope, next cycle uses the cruible.

[The Angry One]

Tommyspa wrote...

No it does not, it proves you think that on your own. It is not universally implied as fact of its nature.
None of the endings show us bending to the reapers will. They all end with the reapers being dead, controlled or just like us removing their function of harvesting being required. Not even remotely under their thumb at any time.

Destroy - All synthetics exterminated. Catalyst agenda fulfilled.
Control - Reapers remain in charge of things. Listen to Shepard. The Reapers maintain peace with a very large, Harbinger shaped stick.
Synthesis - Reapers win. Flat out victory.

Even in refuse the reapers end up defeated because of Liara's capsule.

Because the next cycle used the Crucible. Confirmed by BioWare. RGB now, or RGB later. We died for nothing.

[G1MEE50K]

I agree with you. It's just leaving more things open to speculation and does leave a bad taste. More questions, less closure is what I got from this DLC.

[Mr.House]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course. He would seek to punish us. The problem is, the game lets him. Shepard just stands there and does nothing.

Well sure, I would agree that Shepard should try to fight back, I didn't know that he didn't in that ending.  Of course fighting the reapers conventionally is futile but Shepard should still try.  Does he just stand there and let the Catalyst kill him?  Because if that's what happens then you're right that's pretty stupid.

Once Starbrat says SO BE IT and the cruible beam hsuts down, Shepard just stands there and get's a sadface as a uniuqe looknig Reaper starts destroying the fleet. Shepard gives up, just seconds after giving one of the best speechs in the game.

[The Angry One]

Zanallen wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

It is a Reaper. It's true voice is that of a Reaper's.
Of course that voice is chosen and synthesized too, but it's one common to all of them.
Moreover, it only uses this voice in anger, in a moment where you can see it loses self-composure, furious that you reject it's choices. That's very telling.

It isn't a Reaper. It is an AI that oversees the Reapers.

It is part of the Reaper conciousness. It is both their overseer and part of them. It controls them. It speaks like them.
It is for all intents and purposes a Reaper. The Reaper.

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

The current series is over. Let's just move on with our lives. Saying the same thing, beating this dead mediocre horse is just tiring.

Modifié par AlduinTheWorldNommer, 30 juin 2012 - 06:58 .

[nicocap24]

Mr.House wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course. He would seek to punish us. The problem is, the game lets him. Shepard just stands there and does nothing.

Well sure, I would agree that Shepard should try to fight back, I didn't know that he didn't in that ending.  Of course fighting the reapers conventionally is futile but Shepard should still try.  Does he just stand there and let the Catalyst kill him?  Because if that's what happens then you're right that's pretty stupid.

Once Starbrat says SO BE IT and the cruible beam hsuts down, Shepard just stands there and get's a sadface as a uniuqe looknig Reaper starts destroying the fleet. Shepard gives up, just seconds after giving one of the best speechs in the game.

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

[Skyhawk02]

The Angry One wrote...

But our only choices is, cooperate with the omnicidal monster - or die.
This is why it bothers me, because it appears to me that we're essentially being told we must do the bidding of the manipulative villain - or else.

But isn't that exactly how you would expect a manipulative villain to behave?  You wouldn't expect him to say, "Do my bidding, or else just kill me and the reapers conventionally, that will work too."  One issue I have with an ending where you kill the reapers without the crucible is that it makes the whole decision pointless, if there is one perfect ending then everybody is just going to pick that.  I am much more interested in making decisions that I have to strain over before making, where I have to make tough judgement calls.

[Baldrick67]

The Catalyst is a monster no debate there.

It turned on it's creaters and turned them into the first reaper against their wishes.

It has harvested, nice term to reduce sentient beings to grain like commodity, untold trillions of people and killed just as many more.

It somehow got into Shepards head and portrayed himself as a human child. Not just any child but the child that shepard couldn't save. The ultimate insult to that boy who was murdered by reaper forces controlled by the Catalyst.

Creepy as hell.

[Mr.House]

nicocap24 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course. He would seek to punish us. The problem is, the game lets him. Shepard just stands there and does nothing.

Well sure, I would agree that Shepard should try to fight back, I didn't know that he didn't in that ending.  Of course fighting the reapers conventionally is futile but Shepard should still try.  Does he just stand there and let the Catalyst kill him?  Because if that's what happens then you're right that's pretty stupid.

Once Starbrat says SO BE IT and the cruible beam hsuts down, Shepard just stands there and get's a sadface as a uniuqe looknig Reaper starts destroying the fleet. Shepard gives up, just seconds after giving one of the best speechs in the game.

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

Contact Hackett! Try to do something! Not stand there and start to cry. Fight to the death, just like you said you would second ago.

Modifié par Mr.House, 30 juin 2012 - 07:01 .

[Savber100]

Mr.House wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course. He would seek to punish us. The problem is, the game lets him. Shepard just stands there and does nothing.

Well sure, I would agree that Shepard should try to fight back, I didn't know that he didn't in that ending.  Of course fighting the reapers conventionally is futile but Shepard should still try.  Does he just stand there and let the Catalyst kill him?  Because if that's what happens then you're right that's pretty stupid.

Once Starbrat says SO BE IT and the cruible beam hsuts down, Shepard just stands there and get's a sadface as a uniuqe looknig Reaper starts destroying the fleet. Shepard gives up, just seconds after giving one of the best speechs in the game.

What exactly could he do? Shoot the Starbrat again? ;P

There wasn't like a way out that place... not to mention he was pretty injured if not dying then. 

That said, I wished there were cinematics of the fleet fighting to the death. 

[nicocap24]

Mr.House wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course. He would seek to punish us. The problem is, the game lets him. Shepard just stands there and does nothing.

Well sure, I would agree that Shepard should try to fight back, I didn't know that he didn't in that ending.  Of course fighting the reapers conventionally is futile but Shepard should still try.  Does he just stand there and let the Catalyst kill him?  Because if that's what happens then you're right that's pretty stupid.

Once Starbrat says SO BE IT and the cruible beam hsuts down, Shepard just stands there and get's a sadface as a uniuqe looknig Reaper starts destroying the fleet. Shepard gives up, just seconds after giving one of the best speechs in the game.

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

Contact Hackett! Try to do something! Not stand there and dstart to cry. Fight to the death, just like you said you would second ago,

I'm pretty sure Hackett is smart enough to fight back without Shepard telling him to.

Modifié par nicocap24, 30 juin 2012 - 07:02 .

[The Angry One]

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

[Skyhawk02]

Mr.House wrote...

Once Starbrat says SO BE IT and the cruible beam hsuts down, Shepard just stands there and get's a sadface as a uniuqe looknig Reaper starts destroying the fleet. Shepard gives up, just seconds after giving one of the best speechs in the game.

You're telling me they actually show Shepard dying right there?  I thought it was implied that he fought back, just because they didn't show doesn't mean it didn't happen, I mean, it probably took years before the reapers finished off humanity.

[CINCTuchanka]

I don't see how Destroy is cooperating with the Catalyst. It kills the Catalyst. It kills Synthetics too, because that's what the Crucible does.

If you choose Synthesis you cooperate with the Catalyst. If you choose Control you become the Catalyst. If you choose Destroy, you kill the Catalyst.

Why does he let you kill him? Because the Crucible "changed him/the variables."

Shepard has to choose because the Crucible changed the Catalyst in some way. Otherwise it would have let you bleed out next to Anderson and  would have gone off and Synthesized everyone or something.

This idea that all the endings are some Boon from the Reaper King is a misunderstanding of the ending. You can just kill him and all the Reapers if you want.

Modifié par CINCTuchanka, 30 juin 2012 - 07:04 .

[Mr.House]

nicocap24 wrote...


I'm pretty sure Hackett is smart enough to fight back without Shepard telling him to.

Hackett has no clue what just happen, what the cruible is, the fact that Shepard just talked to the leader. But no, Shepard decides to start to cry.

[Sisterofshane]

Zanallen wrote...

It isn't a Reaper. It is an AI that oversees the Reapers.

It is, and yet it isn't.  It is the creator of the Reapers, and their collective consciousness.
It is Harbinger, it was that Reaper Destroyer, it was Sovereign.

I think it is being misleading when it calls itself the "Catalyst" - it was the Catalyst until it decided to create the first Reaper.  It is now, for lack of a better term, the Reaper King.

And, The Angry One, I never liked or agreed with the Catalyst.  Now that we know it's origins and why it does what it does, however, it makes it that much easier to pick destroy.  Though, I still don't understand why it even gives you this option, or the control option really.  If it was really all that dedicated to it's cause, it should have only offered us the chance to Synthesize, or the chance to refuse and become Reaper Fodder.

[Mr.House]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Once Starbrat says SO BE IT and the cruible beam hsuts down, Shepard just stands there and get's a sadface as a uniuqe looknig Reaper starts destroying the fleet. Shepard gives up, just seconds after giving one of the best speechs in the game.

You're telling me they actually show Shepard dying right there?  I thought it was implied that he fought back, just because they didn't show doesn't mean it didn't happen, I mean, it probably took years before the reapers finished off humanity.

I never said they showed her dying, I said they show her give up and start crying, and doing notihng but standing there. Not contacting Hackett or tryijng something.

[Skyhawk02]

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Then in your version of Shepard's story that IS what he said, that is what's so great about ambiguous endings, you can imagine that whatever you wanted to happen, DID happen.

[The Angry One]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

But our only choices is, cooperate with the omnicidal monster - or die.
This is why it bothers me, because it appears to me that we're essentially being told we must do the bidding of the manipulative villain - or else.

But isn't that exactly how you would expect a manipulative villain to behave?  You wouldn't expect him to say, "Do my bidding, or else just kill me and the reapers conventionally, that will work too."  One issue I have with an ending where you kill the reapers without the crucible is that it makes the whole decision pointless, if there is one perfect ending then everybody is just going to pick that.  I am much more interested in making decisions that I have to strain over before making, where I have to make tough judgement calls.

Let me clear up something. I have no problem with the Catalyst being a manipulative villain if it's the controller of the Reapers (I would prefer it wasn't the controller of the Reapers but hey they had to go this route).
My problem is that cooperation with this villain is the only real issue.

A proper rejection ending would not be "perfect". In my scenario, the Catalyst would be destroyed, SOME Reapers would stop fighting. Others like Harbinger would continue out of spite. 
Then, EMS would take over. High EMS (more than 5000) means victory. Less, the cycle continues.
Basically I'm talking about an ending where defiance of the Reapers requires the most work, the most time put in, the most effort. This makes the other choices valid, because the sacrifice required to defeat the Reapers on our terms is that much greater.