565 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

As you may have noticed I am not very impressed with anything the brat and his boys do or say, TAO. The obvious deceit of posing as an innocent child never got hold of me, but I should have consciously recognized it for what it was. So, in a way I fell for it too.

[The Heretic of Time]

I agree with you The Angry One, but I think it makes the Catalyst all the more interesting. I hate it when villains explain their master plan to the hero and the Catalyst is no different in that regard, but what makes the Catalyst different is that he does not just play open card with Shepard, he tries to manipulate Shepard by acting as if he's playing open card with Shep.

Think about this: Do you honestly think Shepard would have listened to a word he said if he appeared in front of Shepard in his true form with his true voice? I think not. So that's why the Catalyst chose his child-form.

It's either that, OR, an easier answer would be: Mac Walters just sucks at writing and didn't really think this through when he wrote the Catalyst.

[The Spamming Troll]

why does starchild look like dream child?

[AtlasMickey]

The Angry One wrote...

We already know pretty much that it is a Reaper/Reaper intelligence/Harbinger/3rd Reaper from the right/whatever. However, it actually voicing itself that way provides a visceral insight into what it truly is.

The point is, why does it speak to you with the form and voice of a human child the rest of the time?

The Catalyst is NOT a "3rd Reaper from the right" it's the embodiment of the collective intelligence of all reapers. That's what he told you he was, so there's no deceit. Furthermore, he told you the Crucible changed him, so, when you reject the Crucible, you reject the changes it made to him, and he reverts to "SO BE IT."

[Ozida]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

why does starchild look like dream child?

To be honest, that has always bothered me too. I mean, BW didn't want to go through "cliche" of a happy ending, but they just had to stick a child in? Did it suppose to make me cry? Sorry, but I already knew that there will be loses in the war, so I didn't care for the child in Shepard's dreams from start. (It was Mordin's voice that made me cried, to be honest).
And when I saw it as a Catalist... the only reaction was: why?

[TemplePhoenix]

Have a problem with SC being deceptive? Nope. I actually thought it was an interesting move that the 'head' of the Reapers goes to the trouble of scanning Shepard's mind for a form he would sympathise with, rather than threaten him. Thing is, the SC didn't HAVE to bring Shepard up; he could have let the commander bleed out downstairs.

This is, I feel, because of the part of his speech that he wasn't being deceptive about: by getting that far, this cycle had proved that the SC's plan, as it stands, would probably not last much longer. They are killing more Reapers than any cycle before them, they have got their superweapon into place, even if the person meant to activate it is dying. If the SC leaves Shepard to die, yeah, the Reapers are eventually going to win THIS cycle, but the next one, or the one after that, will eventually stop them, meaning that the SC has failed in his primary purpose. So it brings Shep up to try and resolve things now rather than later.

If you really LISTEN, there is a distinct order of preference for what the SC wants Shep to do. Hear which options he pushes, and which he glosses over. In MY OPINION ONLY, these are (from least preferable to most preferable):

4. Reject. The Catalyst knows he will win a conventional battle. He doesn't actually want this. Why? Because that will carry on the cycle as is, leaving it open to defeat by a later civilisation; maybe they get warned early and develop their own defenses, maybe they build their own Crucible... there's no telling what the next person in Shepard's place will decide, leaving a worryingly unpredictable stamp on the future.

3. Destroy. The SC gets this option out of the way first, and makes sure to emphasise that organics will just make more synthetics in the future. It doesn't want this option because not only do it and its Reaper buddies die, but what it sees as the inevitable synth/organic war will just start again. (My Shep chose this, incidentally, because he disagreed with that inevitability).

2. Control. The SC likes this a little better than Destroy, because it keeps the Reapers in play, albeit with Shep in control of them. My thinking is that it suspects that the Reapers will eventually break free of control, or that Shep will eventually be corrupted/driven to maintain the 'balance' himself. However, this is still too unpredictable for the Catalyst, and so...

1. Synthesis. The SC reeeeally pushes this one; he doesn't mention any drawbacks to it, he saves it until last... hell, the beam in question is even directly in front of Shep. This is what the Catalyst wants as the alternative to its (clearly failing) original plan. An end to what IT sees as the galaxy's biggest problem (even if no one else agrees), the survival of the Reapers, the removal of that pesky Shepard... THIS is the choice that I would be wariest of.

[ChampDude]

I knew that little brat was being deceptive from Day 1, the Extended Cut just proved it. Still didn't change my choice.... The loss of the Geth and Edi was a harsh sacrifice, but it was better than doing something it wanted me to do

[Dragoonlordz]

The appearence does not matter to me, I can see why they wanted it to be child from his reoccuring nightmares, but I would just as okay with it's appearence if was full grown adult. The voice tone change was fine. You was not going to get conventional victory even by time you made that choice and had your little chat with him you look out the window and see the battle outside is already coming to close with Repears just strolling through space picking off remnants of the fleet. You have no fleet left to wipe them out and no time to do anything else. Plus like said you were never going to get conventional win because of the balance of consequence not being equal. Which I mentioned here in another thread (copy and pasted entire content of what said)...

You lot keep going on about "can win scenarios" but that is irrelevant.

Like said it is not about can you do x, y or z.

It is about balance of consequence...

In no scenario you have painted is the balance even close to equal to the other choices. You cannot and should not have one choice that has much lower consequence than the others because then no one will pick the others and basically leading back to "delete all choices, all outcomes except this one because none of the others will get used". Means Bioware wasted all their time making current original endings as well as vast amounts resources combined between that and all that went into EC.

Entire geth race and all synthetics wiped out with one choice, entire galaxy altered against their will is another choice; entire galaxy culled in preperation for the next cycle in another and is the current reject choice, lastly reapers all still existing and still at large potentially with everyone merely being supervised and manipulted by them as overseers (if) Shepard is a pawn of the AI and they could potentially still wipe you out any time.

Loosing some fleets, losing few hundred thousand people or even millions but all races still present and moving on with no remaining reaper threat does not compare to those choices (imho). Either wipe out a race (one not already that has been or could of been killed already through the game) to achieve such a victory of which I suggest one that would make it as hard a choice as the other being the human race ended or kill off every single companion along with Shepard to get same level of consequence to make the choice equally as hard as the rest.

The choice has to be as hard to make as the current choices but with all the scenarios people came up with in here so far none of them come close to making it on par as hard a choice. Which leads back to all other choices becoming null and void which is a big no for reasons stated above in the second paragraph.

The ones who say either they do it or never buying another game from them.. Seriously that is the epitome of cutting off ones nose to spite his or her face. You know Bioware have the ability and talent to make great games, they have done so in past and could do so in future even if you do not like this one or how this one ended even if last couple games. To say never buy unless change part of this one is just silly, they could bring out a title you might actually love to have played but out of spite you deprive yourself of it? It just seems to me to be a very silly thing to say over this game, part of this game or even few games.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 juin 2012 - 02:56 .

[Cutlass Jack]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

why does starchild look like dream child?

Because Shepard's subconscious mind put it into a form he could deal with. Not too different from why Shepard saw Quarians still in their suits in the matrix. Again, I thought it very obvious that wasn't its real form.

Of course you could equally argue the child from the beginning never truly existed. One of the things that really stood out to me from that was that no adult helps him onto the shuttle or ever acknowledges he's there. Shepard is the only one who ever sees him.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 30 juin 2012 - 03:00 .

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

How would making organics and synthetics the same remove that reason for conflict?
That just screams racism. "The only way to overcome differences is to remove them!"

Organics will be perfected by technology. Synthetics will be perfected understanding. Organics will gain the advantages of synthetic technology. Synthetics will gain a full understanding of organics. The differences are not removed at all. The barriers, however, that make conflict possible are dissolved. Nothing racist about that.

Stop applying human concepts to non-human entities. It is intellectually dishonest.

Modifié par saracen16, 30 juin 2012 - 03:17 .

[MegaSovereign]

The Catalyst is being manipulative in a sense that he's trying to convince you to pick synthesis. But I don't think he's lying.

The Catalyst is just a rogue AI stuck in a logic loop. He was created to solve an unsolvable problem. You can't stop conflict from happening before it happens.

[Ghrelt]

Thanks The Angry One. From now on I call the Crucible the War Crime-O-Matic. And I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[o Ventus]

Tommyspa wrote...

Morality means little in war and you can't prove the catalyst is being manipulative or truthful.

Morals don't matter in war?

Tell that to the Nuremburg trials, or the Geneva convention.

[saracen16]

o Ventus wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

Morality means little in war and you can't prove the catalyst is being manipulative or truthful.

Morals don't matter in war?

Tell that to the Nuremburg trials, or the Geneva convention.

You're right. That's why rejection of the Crucible is a war crime.

[Persephone]

o Ventus wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

Morality means little in war and you can't prove the catalyst is being manipulative or truthful.

Morals don't matter in war?

Tell that to the Nuremburg trials, or the Geneva convention.

How did those trials and this convention ever stop/win/prevent a war?

Passing judgment afterwards is easy. Let those folks fight on the front lines and be forced to make those harrowing decisions....then they may matter.

[Persephone]

Ellythe wrote...

Thanks The Angry One. From now on I call the Crucible the War Crime-O-Matic. And I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Shepard is already a war criminal before ME3. He/she committed Genocide in "The Arrival". But who cares about the Batarians, eh?

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

.. the Catalyst being a deceptive manipulator?

What empty babble. The Catalyst is not a "deceptive manipulator". To be a deceptive manipulator, he must possess some degree of ambition, which he clearly does not. He is bound by his programming, to bring peace between organics and synthetics at any cost.

If anything, the endings prove otherwise: he was telling the truth. We manipulated him with the Crucible. Without the Crucible, he would not give us these options, including the one to destroy him. Without the Crucible, we couldn't alter the variables.

Setting aside the exact nature of the functions of the WarCrime-O-Matic Crucible, let's look at the reject ending.

Prove that using the Crucible is a war crime. Clearly, the endings prove otherwise.

Specifically, "SO BE IT." Now, yes. We already know pretty much that it is a Reaper/Reaper intelligence/Harbinger/3rd Reaper from the right/whatever. However, it actually voicing itself that way provides a visceral insight into what it truly is.

The Catalyst is the collective intelligence of ALL REAPERS. It is not "just another Reaper". "So be it" is not anger. It just reverts to what it was because you threw out the option of the Crucible.

It is just a program. A ****ing program.

The point is, why does it speak to you with the form and voice of a human child the rest of the time?

So, therein lies the true nature of your hate: the fact that he appears in the form of a child. It doesn't matter what form he appears in (he could appear in the form of a ****ing cartoon character for all I care). What matters is what he says. And clearly, this is not the form that he really is in. The first time we see him, is in first person, seeing him walk toward us. It is clear that this is how Shepard's mind interprets him.

Sovereign and Harbinger were nothing if not frank in everything they said. This was in a way refreshing. They never pretended to be something they weren't (Collector General aside, it still used the same voice and manner of speech).

See above.

The Catalyst hides everything it is and everything it does behind a layer of deceit. It paints itself as something completely foreign to what it really is - an innocent child. This on top of it's sugar-coating of it's incredible crimes.

All emotion and no logic does not an argument make. Whatever it has done in the past, it believes that it is doing the best for all of life everywhere. It follows logic, not ambition. As such, it does not fall under the conventions of "evil" the same way, for example, Gargamel or the Joker fall under the category of evil.

So I have to know, out of curiosity. Does this not bother you? Does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth knowing that when this being is challenged, it reverts to it's "true" voice? That it maintains a facade for as long as Shepard plays nice with it?

Not at all. In fact, it is asserting the inevitability of the cycle, a consequence that we would expect in facing an unconventional enemy. The Crucible is the only way to stop the Reapers, and it is helping you accomplish this. Turning it down is tantamount to suicide, and in itself a war crime.

[eye basher]

That's why i always choose destroy lets face it who in their right mind would believe any of the bull**** the catalyst is selling you he was designed to believe in it.

[Kem1995]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

why does starchild look like dream child?

I never understood this either.

[Ridwan]

Hi guys, so ehmm what are you talking about now? I left 10 pages and there is no way I'm reading 10 pages of people who can't keep their posts short and simple No offence.

[The Spamming Troll]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

why does starchild look like dream child?

Because Shepard's subconscious mind put it into a form he could deal with. Not too different from why Shepard saw Quarians still in their suits in the matrix. Again, I thought it very obvious that wasn't its real form.

Of course you could equally argue the child from the beginning never truly existed. One of the things that really stood out to me from that was that no adult helps him onto the shuttle or ever acknowledges he's there. Shepard is the only one who ever sees him.

that doesnt answer the question.

is starchild real or not?

where does this image of a child come from, if not taken directly from shepards brain? and how could the reapers see shepards dream about a kid, and manifest that image into a "real" entity? has the catalyst ALWAYS looked like vent kid? the reapers didnt use random child face #387 to give form to the catalyst. they specifically used the vent kid.

why?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 30 juin 2012 - 04:02 .

[Kem1995]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

why does starchild look like dream child?

Because Shepard's subconscious mind put it into a form he could deal with. Not too different from why Shepard saw Quarians still in their suits in the matrix. Again, I thought it very obvious that wasn't its real form.

Of course you could equally argue the child from the beginning never truly existed. One of the things that really stood out to me from that was that no adult helps him onto the shuttle or ever acknowledges he's there. Shepard is the only one who ever sees him.

that doesnt answer the question.

is starchild real or not?

where does this image of a child come from, if not taken directly from shepards brain? and how could the reapers see shepards dream about a kid, and manifest that image into a "real" entity? the reapers didnt use random child face #387 to give form to the catalyst. they specifically used the vent kid. has the catalyst always looked like vent kid?

why?

Theres no answer. If someone can give us a legitmate answer to this, I'll praise them. Simply because, how do the Reapers know that Shepard has dreams about the kid? Why would the Catalyst look exactly like the kid from Earth? Is the kid even real?

[69_Gio_69]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

why does starchild look like dream child?

Because Shepard's subconscious mind put it into a form he could deal with. Not too different from why Shepard saw Quarians still in their suits in the matrix. Again, I thought it very obvious that wasn't its real form.

I have said this before, but that line of thought is total BS. When Shepard was in the 'Geth world' his physical body wasn't present. He didn't have any senses like for instance his eyes to help him see. Therefore his brain can't comprehend things he hasn't seen before. 

When he is talking with the Space Child his physical body IS present. Therefore he can have new experiences through his senses. 

[saracen16]

Kem1995 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

why does starchild look like dream child?

Because Shepard's subconscious mind put it into a form he could deal with. Not too different from why Shepard saw Quarians still in their suits in the matrix. Again, I thought it very obvious that wasn't its real form.

Of course you could equally argue the child from the beginning never truly existed. One of the things that really stood out to me from that was that no adult helps him onto the shuttle or ever acknowledges he's there. Shepard is the only one who ever sees him.

that doesnt answer the question.

is starchild real or not?

where does this image of a child come from, if not taken directly from shepards brain? and how could the reapers see shepards dream about a kid, and manifest that image into a "real" entity? the reapers didnt use random child face #387 to give form to the catalyst. they specifically used the vent kid. has the catalyst always looked like vent kid?

why?

Theres no answer. If someone can give us a legitmate answer to this, I'll praise them. Simply because, how do the Reapers know that Shepard has dreams about the kid? Why would the Catalyst look exactly like the kid from Earth? Is the kid even real?

Losing a lot of blood can make you delirious, and delirium is a hallucinogen. Couple that with the indoctrination effects that Shepard was sufferring from when TIM made his speech.

[Cutlass Jack]

69_Gio_69 wrote...

I have said this before, but that line of thought is total BS. When Shepard was in the 'Geth world' his physical body wasn't present. He didn't have any senses like for instance his eyes to help him see. Therefore his brain can't comprehend things he hasn't seen before. 

When he is talking with the Space Child his physical body IS present. Therefore he can have new experiences through his senses. 

So you're really thinking that an AI created millennia before humans ever ever existed had coincidentally had the exact form of a child Shepard just met on earth? Thats really the more believable option for you than the computer picking an image out of Shepard's subconcious?