saracen16 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
TheBlackBaron wrote...
No, your logic with Reject is that "because it's morally messy to use the Crucible, I'm going to kill them so they can be saved from the Reapers".
No. My logic is that using the Crucible enslaves the galaxy to the Catalyst's whim.
Since the Crucible was built by organic species and the Catalyst was changed by the Crucible, plus Shepard is the one who makes the final decision... I'd say that the Crucible enslaves the galaxy to Shepard's whim, not the Catalyst's. You are completely denying the obvious: the Crucible is what made these choices possible, NOT the Catalyst.
We'll fight and win without it. I won't sacrifice the soul of my species.
You can fight and win without the Collector base b/c it's not a method of defeating the Reapers. However, you can not fight and win without the Crucible because it is the only way to stop the Reapers.
The Catalyst has no reason to lie whatsoever. It may manipulate by convincing Shepard about the solution that is Synthesis, but it already gave us the option to destroy the Reapers.
Quoting myself from another thread:
The three "offered" endings are all fatally flawed in a lot of ways, but
the worst way they are flawed is that they are all effectively
surrender to a single enemy ultimatum. Yes, even Destroy.
Taken in reverse order of offer:
Synthesis.
This is the CaseMaclyst's favored option, and the goal of the Reapers
from the beginning - forcing organic life in the galaxy into a form of
their choosing, ostensibly to preserve it. The problem is, by doing so,
you further a Reaper tactic you've already been told about, the guiding of development down paths the Reapers have chosen as useful to them, either to make the harvest more efficeint, or to assist in pacification. Homogenized
cultures have fallen to the Reapers since the beginning, as confirmed
by Javik and the CaseMaclyst - a culture that is monolithic does not
adapt when its weak points are hit. It shatters and crumbles, and the
broken pieces are easy pickings. By performing synthesis, you
homogenize the galaxy; in effect, you merge all species into one. Yes,
physical variety will remain...but everyone is now a transorganic
hybrid, even if they find the idea of implants abhorrent. The
CaseMaclyst sees no problem with forcing a particular evolutionary and
societal path on the galaxy; it's been doing that since the day it
murdered its creators and turned them into the first Reaper. Shepard,
however, is not the CaseMaclyst, and depending on your choices, may in
fact have taken a hard-line stand in defense of Legion's
statement...."all life has the right to self-determinate". One of the
main driving forces in this game series has been that your choices
matter, your free will matters. Synthesis is the ultimate removal of
free will from the galaxy - nobody but CaseMaclyst gets a say in what
you become. He has the...
Control. The middle presented option,
and one the CaseMaclyst is ambivalent about - his words are effectively
"I will not like it but it is acceptable". Control boils down to
boiling Shepard down and turning him/her into the Starkid Mk. 2. He
says the Reapers will bend to your will. He also told Saren that they'd
spare the galaxy if we surrendered, and fooled TIM into thinking HE had
the control. Remember, in the game series, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has
thought they were "safe" from the influence of the Reapers while
interacting with any part of them has fallen under their sway. Further,
the kid all but says you'll turn into a Reaper - the beings
HE CONTROLS. You're putting your trust in the enemy you've fought for
three long years? You're accepting his statements as truth without
verification? Last guy who did that died on the platform below not 5
minutes ago. And once more, you further a Reaper tactic you've already been told about, the guiding of development down paths the Reapers have chosen as useful to them, either to make the harvest more efficeint, or to assist in pacification. Shepard's ways of thinking are KNOWN to the CaseMaclyst. He KNOWS precisely how s/he will guide the galaxy - and can accept that path.
Your enemy dislikes the idea of losing his job...but can accept you
taking it. We know the Reaper goal is homogenization, again ostensibly
for preservation. If CaseMaclyst finds Shepard's taking the job
acceptable, that means exactly one thing: Shepard will unify the
galaxy...the same way the Protheans did. And as we've seen, a galaxy
sheltered from division by the guiding hand of an overlord species...or a
Shepard... the hand following a path Casemaclyst finds
acceptable...that the REAPERS find acceptable...is a galaxy easy to ...
Destroy.
The first offered option, and the one the kid harps against the most.
But if it's the bad choice....why mention it? AI can lie. AI can
omit. CaseMaclyst fooled TIM, he fooled Saren. These are not dull
people - they both made their livelihoods being ruthless, observant,
detail-oriented and goal-focused. So why is he telling us "shoot that
and I die"? Yes, he'd adding in the whole "and I'll take as many of
your friends with me as I can, so don't", but he's still putting your
gun to his head and saying "Shoot and you win!" Nothing logical offers
self-destruction as a solution unless it somehow furthers their own
ends. CaseMaclyst isn't diving in front of a bullet like Conrad Verner
thought he did. He's not sacrificing himself to save another. He's
offering you victory...on his terms. Same as the other two. But on
what terms? Simple: all synthetics in the galaxy die. Note the
phrasing. "All syhtetics in the galaxy
die." CaseMaclyst is the Reaper hivemind. Who's to say he has to
STAY on the Citadel? The Reapers came from dark space - beyond the
galactic rim. Did all of them come? We know they can communicate
across vast distance - Sovereign and Harbinger both natter with Shep
over conventional channels, and Harbinger can manifest his direct will
into individuals almost 3 years before physically reaching galactic
space. That's a LOT of long-range, lag-free comm power. Perhaps even
enough to let an AI transfer itself across the width of the galaxy, past
a destroyed and thus non-dangerous relay...and out of the killzone. Do
we trust CaseMaclyst to just die because we got the macguffin to the
widget? If he's truly willing to just let us win, why not just walk
away? No, he has an angle...and once again, it's this: If you destroy
all synthetics, you further a Reaper tactic you've already been told about, the guiding of development down paths the Reapers have chosen as useful to them, either to make the harvest more efficeint, or to assist in pacification.
The Reapers don't like other synthetics. Synthetics are diversity, not
homogenity - and diversity is hard to predict, hard to counter, hard to
conquer. Synthetics moreso, because they are driven to understand, to
question, to seek - and unlike organics, are not biolimited in how long
they can do so. Synthetics only survive a cycle if they're so
well-hidden that it's likely they'll run out of batteries before anyone
finds them - because otherwise, you've got data transmission from cycle
to cycle, forewarning, all the things we got from the Protheans. The
kid doesn't think organics can do this - he states flatly that he
thought the Crucible's very idea was destroyed several cycles before.
But he DOES know synthetics CAN do this - hell, it's almost a direct map
to what he says he's doing. So synths get eradicated, to preserve the
ignorance that is the Reaper's first, best weapon. If no-one believes
you exist...then they have no way to prepare to fight you.
So,
as you see, all three endings break down to the same base ideal - no
matter what you do, if you pick one of CaseMaclyyst's solutions, you are
allowing the Reapers to choose the future of the galaxy. CaseMaclyst
must have some reason to allow Shepard to have some small say in which
version of Reaper-guided evolution we get, but damned if I'm going to
trust that motive. Before Hammer started moving, I gave a speech that
ended with "Let's win our future". It didn't end with "Let's let
someone else hand out a future of their design and choosing, as they've
done every time they've finished a harvest before". OUR future. Not
CaseMaclyst's.
Your assumption is that there is an altuistic element to the CaseMaclyst's offered solutions - that he's actually offering to die to end the cycles and create peace. My assumption is that nobody offers to die unless they get SOMETHING from it - even those brave men and women who train to take a bullet for a diplomat have a self-actualized reason for doing it. The duty is an honor, as well as a burden, plus the pay's pretty damn good if you never have to do that part of the job. and if you do, your family is set for life.
CaseMacalyst is not altruistic. It is not gaining ANYTHING by letting us destroy it from our perspective. It has not asked the important question the Geth and EDI both do. It has not questioned why it exists. It simply does everything in its power to complete a goal.
I trust Legion because the first time I meet him, he shoots a fair number of Husks and at least one Archon, plus he acts like no other Geth I had encountered. He provides a concrete and unambiguous gesture of trust and offers to open dialog. When he talks, he offers a unique perspective,, and is willing to argue points with both emotion and logic - hell, he gets SHY when asked about the N7 chestplate, and yet he also willingly provides both pro and con reasons to rewrite or destroy the Heretics. CaseMaclyst only gets emotional when it is denied its three choices. The only emotion it ever shows...is rage. Even when you march off to blow it up, it just kinda stands there like "Oh, you're going to kill me now? that's nice.", completely without affect or even a touch of sorrow at th things it has done to reach this point.
NOTHING makes that kind of sacrifice affectlessly. Even the ultimate pacificst - Jesus - does not go to his death emotionlessly; depending on which book of the bible, he even cries to the sky "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" before dying.. But CaseMaclyst's own words are a flat, emotionless "The cycle will start again." That statement says there are two options. Either it has decided that it's fine with its ENTIRE HISTORY OF ATROCITY BEING ENTIRELY POINTLESS...or it is quite sure it is not going to die from what Shepard does. And its only displayed emotion is rage if Shepard refuses even to blow it up.
Dunno about you, but I think that stinks worse than month-old lutefisk.
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