565 réponses à ce sujet

[s17tabris]

The Angry One wrote...

Even in refuse the reapers end up defeated because of Liara's capsule.

Because the next cycle used the Crucible. Confirmed by BioWare. RGB now, or RGB later. We died for nothing.

Really?! And I thought that it's one of those things open to "lots of speculations from everyone".  Oh well, headcanon ftw... <_<

[Mr.House]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Then in your version of Shepard's story that IS what he said, that is what's so great about ambiguous endings, you can imagine that whatever you wanted to happen, DID happen.

Except the next cycle uses the cruible.

Modifié par Mr.House, 30 juin 2012 - 07:06 .

[The Angry One]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Then in your version of Shepard's story that IS what he said, that is what's so great about ambiguous endings, you can imagine that whatever you wanted to happen, DID happen.

Aside from the whole YOU FAILED LOL epilogue.
You know, if BioWare had just faded to black after that scene and not shown anything at all, I could've lived with that. But they didn't. Then they said the next cycle used the crucible.

[Torrible]

The Catalyst is a rogue AI created by an unknown race to bring about a solution that can end the organic-synthetic conflic/cycle. Just like how the robots in Isaac Asimov's novels were initially programmed to protect humans but eventually went nuts and decided they need to kill humans to protect them from themselves, the Catalyst went bonkers too. It decided that synthesis was the best solution. Mind you, that was back before the crucible was invented so the synthesis was extremely crude; the AI essentially turned his creators into the first Reapers.

It's an AI. A program. A creature driven by pure cold logic. All it ever wanted was an end to the cycle. Of course it is going to be pissed when Shepard rejects all 3 options. I see "So be it" as an uncharacteristic display of childish emotion (that it might be possibly be even ashamed of) and it immediately reverted back to its childlike voice right after.

Modifié par Torrible, 30 juin 2012 - 07:09 .

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

What TAO is currently proposing.



>be a life-guard
>be the BEST MOTHER-****ING LIFE-GUARD EVER
>SERIOUSLY, YOU PIONEERED A NEW RESCUE DEVICE.
>black kid is drowning at one end of the pool
>white kid is drowning at other
>you don't have time to save both
>"**** IT MAN I'M JUST GONNA JUMP IN AND DROWN MYSELF TOO I'M NOT COMPROMISING MY MORALS"

[The Angry One]

arr0whead wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Even in refuse the reapers end up defeated because of Liara's capsule.

Because the next cycle used the Crucible. Confirmed by BioWare. RGB now, or RGB later. We died for nothing.

Really?! And I thought that it's one of those things open to "lots of speculations from everyone".  Oh well, headcanon ftw... <_<

Tell that to Gamble. He won't stop with "The next cycle used the Crucible!" and (my favourite) "Kasumi's boyfriend was resurrected with synthesis!"
How? With space magic of course!

[daaaav]

I agree.

This is one of the more baffling decisions of the Extended Cut. Before the EC the Catalyst was an immovable and unknowable figure, thus Shepherd can be somewhat excused when he blindly agrees with everything it says.

Post EC, the Catalyst appears to be nothing more than a broken AI and it is even MORE frustrating that Shepherd still follows along like a lost puppy.

[The Angry One]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

What TAO is currently proposing.



>be a life-guard
>be the BEST MOTHER-****ING LIFE-GUARD EVER
>SERIOUSLY, YOU PIONEERED A NEW RESCUE DEVICE.
>black kid is drowning at one end of the pool
>white kid is drowning at other
>you don't have time to save both
>"**** IT MAN I'M JUST GONNA JUMP IN AND DROWN MYSELF TOO I'M NOT COMPROMISING MY MORALS"

That's not even a strawman. That has nothing to do with anything I said.

[Tommyspa]

The Angry One wrote...


Destroy - All synthetics exterminated. Catalyst agenda fulfilled.
Control - Reapers remain in charge of things. Listen to Shepard. The Reapers maintain peace with a very large, Harbinger shaped stick.
Synthesis - Reapers win. Flat out victory.

Destroy - The catalyst agenda is not fulfilled, it is dead and so are the reapers.
Control - lolwut? Shepard is in charge not the reapers. I certainly don't recall the reapers starting their harvesting again.
Synthesis - The reapers do not "lose" but they sure as hell do not win either. Their current function is ended, no more harvesting or killing. In what way is that a victory for the reapers?

Because the next cycle used the Crucible. Confirmed by BioWare. RGB now, or RGB later. We died for nothing.

If you are dumb enough to actually refuse to do what is necessary sure, you then should be defeated by a foe greater than you. Someone will always be willing to do what is necessary it is why a later cycle wasn't moronic to allow themselves to be killed because of "morality".

[Skyhawk02]

Mr.House wrote...

I never said they showed her dying, I said they show her give up and start crying, and doing notihng but standing there. Not contacting Hackett or tryijng something.

Just because they didn't show her contacting hackett that doesn't mean it didn't happen.  I am 100% positive that in the Reject endings Shepard does everything she can to try and fight the reapers.  Just because they don't explicitly tell you that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.  Try to logically fill in the gaps and you will come to the same conclusion.

[movieguyabw]

The Angry One wrote...

.. the Catalyst being a deceptive manipulator?

Setting aside the exact nature of the functions of the WarCrime-O-Matic Crucible, let's look at the reject ending.
Specifically, "SO BE IT." Now, yes. We already know pretty much that it is a Reaper/Reaper intelligence/Harbinger/3rd Reaper from the right/whatever. However, it actually voicing itself that way provides a visceral insight into what it truly is.

The point is, why does it speak to you with the form and voice of a human child the rest of the time?
Sovereign and Harbinger were nothing if not frank in everything they said. This was in a way refreshing. They never pretended to be something they weren't (Collector General aside, it still used the same voice and manner of speech).
The Catalyst hides everything it is and everything it does behind a layer of deceit. It paints itself as something completely foreign to what it really is - an innocent child. This on top of it's sugar-coating of it's incredible crimes.

So I have to know, out of curiosity. Does this not bother you? Does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth knowing that when this being is challenged, it reverts to it's "true" voice? That it maintains a facade for as long as Shepard plays nice with it?

Do I have a problem with an overarching villain being deceptive?

...Is that the question? 

[Galiredon]

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

OMG that would make me so happy if they did this! 

[The Angry One]

Torrible wrote...

It's an AI. A program. A creature driven by pure cold logic. All it ever wanted was an end to the cycle. Of course it is going to be pissed when Shepard rejects all 3 options. I see "So be it" as an uncharacteristic display of childish emotion (that it might be possibly be even ashamed of) and it immediately reverted back to its childlike voice right after.

> Driven by cold logic
> Display of childish emotion

Pick one.

[nicocap24]

The Angry One wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Then in your version of Shepard's story that IS what he said, that is what's so great about ambiguous endings, you can imagine that whatever you wanted to happen, DID happen.

Aside from the whole YOU FAILED LOL epilogue.
You know, if BioWare had just faded to black after that scene and not shown anything at all, I could've lived with that. But they didn't. Then they said the next cycle used the crucible.

The point there is that the crucible was really the only way to stop the reapers. Now I agree it would've been better to be able to win with really high EMS but since they said throughout the game that the reapers couldn't be defeated conventionally, they wanted to stick to that. It's understandable.

[Ridwan]

We all knew they weren't going to get rid of that stupid kid, since they kept saying they were not changing the ending. Does it suck? Damn straight. I don't get why anyone would think that is good writing other than the delusional writer that came up with that crap and all the yes-men that that approved it (or didn't, didn't Mac and Casey cook this crap up by themselves without anyones input?).

But the extended, really isn't THAT bad.
It's like getting slapped in the face, compared to a kick to the balls, like the original felt like.

Modifié par M25105, 30 juin 2012 - 07:14 .

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

The Angry One wrote...

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

What TAO is currently proposing.



>be a life-guard
>be the BEST MOTHER-****ING LIFE-GUARD EVER
>SERIOUSLY, YOU PIONEERED A NEW RESCUE DEVICE.
>black kid is drowning at one end of the pool
>white kid is drowning at other
>you don't have time to save both
>"**** IT MAN I'M JUST GONNA JUMP IN AND DROWN MYSELF TOO I'M NOT COMPROMISING MY MORALS"

That's not even a strawman. That has nothing to do with anything I said.

You're saying that the Crucible should not be used. It doesn't matter how cheap it is as a plot device, the fact is it defeats the reapers.

You want to fight the Reapers without it.

That is the definition of bull-headed idiocy.

[Ajensis]

The Angry One wrote...

(...)
So I have to know, out of curiosity. Does this not bother you? Does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth knowing that when this being is challenged, it reverts to it's "true" voice? That it maintains a facade for as long as Shepard plays nice with it?

It doesn't bother me that it uses this voice or that, no. I think there are bigger things to be concerned with, namely what Arisugawa is detailing in this thread:

Arisugawa wrote...

(...)
Problem #2

We are now given the option to refuse the three main choices. Refusing to select a choice, or shooting at the  Catalyst, will now end the game in the Reaper’s favor. At that point, the Catalyst either shuts the Crucible down entirely or it calls upon its forces to destroy it. We’re not shown exactly what happens, save that we do see the energy beam connecting the Citadel to the Crucible dissipating.

Which now returns us back to the heart of the problem: why does the Catalyst speak to us at all? There’s a  throwaway line that the Crucible changed” the Catalyst, and during the original ending, many people interpreted that as though the Catalyst was forced by the Crucible to offer these option to Shepard. Clearly, this isn’t the case. When Shepard refuses to cooperate, the Catalyst become angry and storms off, resulting in the eventual destruction of the allied forces.

Since the Catalyst isn’t being forced to speak to Shepard, why does it speak to Shepard at all? It was the one that activated the elevator that called Shepard to it. It could have easily left Shepard there to bleed out and die next to
Anderson, thus allowing the current cycle to end as it had originally ended it to. Why does it even offer the Control or Destroy options to us? It doesn’t have to. It doesn’t serve its purpose. If Synthesis is its ultimate goal, why doesn’t it just state that this is all the Crucible can do and hide the other possibilities?

This is just a fragment of the opening post; take a look at the link for some in-depth commentary on the Catalyst

Personally, I'm not too bothered with it. I only chose the Reject scenario once by accident - my true ending is Destroy, so this isn't relevant to me. But I can certainly see that there are issues with it, as explained in the quote above

Modifié par Ajensis, 30 juin 2012 - 07:11 .

[Torrible]

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

It's an AI. A program. A creature driven by pure cold logic. All it ever wanted was an end to the cycle. Of course it is going to be pissed when Shepard rejects all 3 options. I see "So be it" as an uncharacteristic display of childish emotion (that it might be possibly be even ashamed of) and it immediately reverted back to its childlike voice right after.

> Driven by cold logic
> Display of childish emotion

Pick one.

Think legion when he tried to kill Shepard.

[The Angry One]

Tommyspa wrote...

Destroy - The catalyst agenda is not fulfilled, it is dead and so are the reapers.

By murdering all synthetics. Thus stopping the cycle in it's mind, when that was never the problem.

Control - lolwut? Shepard is in charge not the reapers. I certainly don't recall the reapers starting their harvesting again.

And Shepard is the Reapers. Do I even have to explain this one?

Synthesis - The reapers do not "lose" but they sure as hell do not win either. Their current function is ended, no more harvesting or killing. In what way is that a victory for the reapers?

All life in the galaxy is now modelled on them. All are now as the Reapers are.
The pinnacle of evolution. A realm of thought you cannot even imagine. Reaper philosophy, almost word for word.

If you are dumb enough to actually refuse to do what is necessary sure, you then should be defeated by a foe greater than you. Someone will always be willing to do what is necessary it is why a later cycle wasn't moronic to allow themselves to be killed because of "morality".

And here come the insults. Dumb enough to refuse to do what the villain tells me to do?
Tell me, why did you defy Saren and Sovereign again?

[Skyhawk02]

daaaav wrote...

I agree.

This is one of the more baffling decisions of the Extended Cut. Before the EC the Catalyst was an immovable and unknowable figure, thus Shepherd can be somewhat excused when he blindly agrees with everything it says.

Post EC, the Catalyst appears to be nothing more than a broken AI and it is even MORE frustrating that Shepherd still follows along like a lost puppy.

You are only following along with the Catalyst if you choose REJECT.  That is what the Catalyst wants, he wants the cycle to continue, he created the cycle.  When you choose the other options you are breaking the cycle and ending the reapers as we know them, that is not what the Catalyst wants, if that was what he wanted he wouldn't need Shepard to do it, he would just do it on his own.

[The Angry One]

Torrible wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

It's an AI. A program. A creature driven by pure cold logic. All it ever wanted was an end to the cycle. Of course it is going to be pissed when Shepard rejects all 3 options. I see "So be it" as an uncharacteristic display of childish emotion (that it might be possibly be even ashamed of) and it immediately reverted back to its childlike voice right after.

> Driven by cold logic
> Display of childish emotion

Pick one.

Think legion when he tried to kill Shepard.

If Legion had wanted to kill Shepard it could've snapped her neck at any time like a twig.
It was trying to hold Shepard back from allowing the extermination of it's entire race. It was the logical thing to do.

Moreover, Legion has always been somewhat sentimental and emotional, it was never a being of pure logic.

Modifié par The Angry One, 30 juin 2012 - 07:13 .

[MOIST N FLUFFY]

It doesn't bother me from a writing stand point, but as a participant in the ME universe I am concerned about the god-child's true nature. He/she/it clearly has an idea for how things should work and doesn't want that to be messed with. When he/she/it speaks about the creators he/she/it mentions their reluctance to become synthetic and it only leaves me to wonder if the reapers are slaves to an artificial malevolent intelligence (god child). That they were reluctant could be a serious understatement of what really happened and how these creators really felt.

[Nragedreaper]

I get it, the end of ME3 is like Jonestown, there are those that drink the Kool-aid, those that run for their lives, and those gunning down the runners. I admit to thinking the little turd wants nothing more than for me to make his job easier. I don't have a problem with the choices...I have a problem with the fact that they wait 50,000 years and wipe out the galaxy wether there are synthetics or not. Per Javik the synthetics were defeated in his cycle before the reapers showed up. So WTF! I thought this whole reaper thing was about synthetics vs organics. So why bother the protheans?

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

It's an AI. A program. A creature driven by pure cold logic. All it ever wanted was an end to the cycle. Of course it is going to be pissed when Shepard rejects all 3 options. I see "So be it" as an uncharacteristic display of childish emotion (that it might be possibly be even ashamed of) and it immediately reverted back to its childlike voice right after.

> Driven by cold logic
> Display of childish emotion

Pick one.

Think legion when he tried to kill Shepard.

If Legion had wanted to kill Shepard it could've snapped her neck at any time like a twig.
It was trying to hold Shepard back from allowing the extermination of it's entire race. It was the logical thing to do.

Incorrect. Legion does try to kill Shepard if he choses to side with the Quarians. KILL.

This point is not up for debate, it is fact. Period. End of story. Do not argue otherwise.

[Skyhawk02]

The Angry One wrote...

And here come the insults. Dumb enough to refuse to do what the villain tells me to do?
Tell me, why did you defy Saren and Sovereign again?

One of the major points of the ending to ME3 is that Shepard was WRONG.  It takes a lot of guts to admit that you were wrong about something, but as we see with the ending to ME3, sometimes things turn out better if you accept your mistakes, and then change your position when you gain new information.  Sticking to your guns in the face of new conflicting information is not admirable.  This is just my interpretation of the ending.