565 réponses à ce sujet

[Skyhawk02]

Galiredon wrote...

You didn't like it because you thought it cheesy, or you didn't like it because you wanted it to be more ambiguous?

I just wanted more main characters to die, I like sad stories, maybe that's weird.

[The Angry One]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...


Do I honestly need to prove to you that this was cheap-ploy for emotion?

This happens all the time in movies, right next to the villan explaining his motives before the potragonist.

You honestly don't see that?

You honestly don't.

It would be outrageously out of character for Legion to kill Shepard, and nothing in the scene indicates it would have.
The point is moot anyway, because Legion is not and never was a being of pure logic.

Modifié par The Angry One, 30 juin 2012 - 07:25 .

[Skyhawk02]

nicocap24 wrote...

I liked Control, but it creeps me out a bit. That new entity or whatever is not exactly Shepard. I don't trust it completely. If the Catalyst was corrupted the Catashep might be corrupted too.

good point!  I think it is fun to speculate on this kind of stuff.

[Torrible]

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

It's an AI. A program. A creature driven by pure cold logic. All it ever wanted was an end to the cycle. Of course it is going to be pissed when Shepard rejects all 3 options. I see "So be it" as an uncharacteristic display of childish emotion (that it might be possibly be even ashamed of) and it immediately reverted back to its childlike voice right after.

> Driven by cold logic
> Display of childish emotion

Pick one.

Think legion when he tried to kill Shepard.

If Legion had wanted to kill Shepard it could've snapped her neck at any time like a twig.
It was trying to hold Shepard back from allowing the extermination of it's entire race. It was the logical thing to do.

Moreover, Legion has always been somewhat sentimental and emotional, it was never a being of pure logic.

Legion's personality must have emerged from an emotionless part of a hive mind. What I meant by 'driven by pure old logic' is that the Catalyst sees a solution that involves killing billions of lives as no different from 1+1=2. Just like Legion, and perhaps EDI, his personality emerged and I think that he was taken aback by his emotional outburst.

[liggy002]

The Angry One wrote...

.. the Catalyst being a deceptive manipulator?

Setting aside the exact nature of the functions of the WarCrime-O-Matic Crucible, let's look at the reject ending.
Specifically, "SO BE IT." Now, yes. We already know pretty much that it is a Reaper/Reaper intelligence/Harbinger/3rd Reaper from the right/whatever. However, it actually voicing itself that way provides a visceral insight into what it truly is.

The point is, why does it speak to you with the form and voice of a human child the rest of the time?
Sovereign and Harbinger were nothing if not frank in everything they said. This was in a way refreshing. They never pretended to be something they weren't (Collector General aside, it still used the same voice and manner of speech).
The Catalyst hides everything it is and everything it does behind a layer of deceit. It paints itself as something completely foreign to what it really is - an innocent child. This on top of it's sugar-coating of it's incredible crimes.

So I have to know, out of curiosity. Does this not bother you? Does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth knowing that when this being is challenged, it reverts to it's "true" voice? That it maintains a facade for as long as Shepard plays nice with it?

Yeah, we never really did get to beat the Reapers and see the ending of this game.  We actually gave in to them.  Don't let the endings fool you.

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

The Angry One wrote...

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...


Do I honestly need to prove to you that this was cheap-ploy for emotion?

This happens all the time in movies, right next to the villan explaining his motives before the potragonist.

You honestly don't see that?

You honestly don't.

It would be outrageously out of character for Legion to kill Shepard, and nothing in the scene indicates it would have.
The point is moot anyway, because Legion was not and never was a being of pure logic.

So your open to saying that Shepard in the ending is out of character, but not your mechanical waifu legion?

Modifié par AlduinTheWorldNommer, 30 juin 2012 - 07:25 .

[Skyhawk02]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

I like them more for trying something and failing the the stock-ending waifu cliche you're proposing.

Kay.

Exactly, I agree that it is better to try something new and fail then stick with the same old.

[Galiredon]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

That bothers me. What kind of story is it where the hero is wrong on this kind of level?
Was Luke wrong? Was Frodo wrong? You just don't do that, not in this way, not in this kind of series.

Then Bioware is breaking totally new ground!  Which is awesome in my opinion and of course that is going to upset people, I think it's great when people take risks with their storytelling, it doesn't always pay off, but it's still better than just rehashing the same stories over and over(although that can be pretty good too) 

To me, that is an amazing story, to think for most of a series that you are the good guy, only to find out at the end that you were actually wrong, I don't think this is quite Mass Effect, but IMO that is a worthwhile story.

Listen to yourself! You're...indoctrinated!

[The Angry One]

Torrible wrote...

Legion's personality must have emerged from an emotionless part of a hive mind. What I meant by 'driven by pure old logic' is that the Catalyst sees a solution that involves killing billions of lives as no different from 1+1=2. Just like Legion, and perhaps EDI, his personality emerged and I think that he was taken aback by his emotional outburst.

"Does this unit have a soul?" is not logical. The Geth are not emotionless.
Donning Shepard's N7 armour is not a logical act. Donating to the victims of the heretic attack on Eden Prime is not logical.

What the Catalyst showed was it's barely concealed contempt for Shepard that all Reapers have.

[The Angry One]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

So your open to saying that Shepard in the ending is out of character, but not your mechanical waifu legion?

Yes, because Rannoch was written well. I have always said this.

[Ridwan]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...


Do I honestly need to prove to you that this was cheap-ploy for emotion?

This happens all the time in movies, right next to the villan explaining his motives before the potragonist.

You honestly don't see that?

You honestly don't.

It would be outrageously out of character for Legion to kill Shepard, and nothing in the scene indicates it would have.
The point is moot anyway, because Legion was not and never was a being of pure logic.

So your open to saying that Shepard in the ending is out of character, but not your mechanical waifu legion?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Shepard was out of character. The Shepard we all know/knew and love would've unzipped his pants, pissed on the stupid ghost kid, flip him off, rally the troops and the fleet and we would've won via conventional warfare. EMS could have played a huge factor in that. Low EMS = failure, medium high EMS = Shepard and most of the fleet dies (Normandy included). Very high EMS = Shepard, the Normandy survives. Most of the fleet dies.

And Shepard is Legion's obsession, like a crazy fan. Remember the armour he's wearing? Ain't no way, he's going to kill Shepard.

Modifié par M25105, 30 juin 2012 - 07:31 .

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Legion's personality must have emerged from an emotionless part of a hive mind. What I meant by 'driven by pure old logic' is that the Catalyst sees a solution that involves killing billions of lives as no different from 1+1=2. Just like Legion, and perhaps EDI, his personality emerged and I think that he was taken aback by his emotional outburst.

"Does this unit have a soul?" is not logical. The Geth are not emotionless.
Donning Shepard's N7 armour is not a logical act. Donating to the victims of the heretic attack on Eden Prime is not logical.

What the Catalyst showed was it's barely concealed contempt for Shepard that all Reapers have.

That arguement relies on a bunch of assumptions, the biggest being that the writers just didn't put as much obsessive thought into it as you are.

[Skyhawk02]

The Angry One wrote...

Um. It's not new ground. It's Deus Ex.
That's my point. It doesn't fit on this level in this kind of story.

I haven't played Deus Ex yet so don't spoil it for me!  If during the whole Mass Effect series you were thinking, "Hey, I bet controlling the reapers could work!"  Or, "Maybe Saren's onto something with this synthesis stuff!"  Then it wouldn't be such a shock to find out at the end that those things could actually work.  The fact that it doesn't fit in the story, is why it works for the story.

 I know that sounds stupid, and feel free to disagree, but I will still keep arguing because I love debate and discussion.

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

M25105 wrote...

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...


Do I honestly need to prove to you that this was cheap-ploy for emotion?

This happens all the time in movies, right next to the villan explaining his motives before the potragonist.

You honestly don't see that?

You honestly don't.

It would be outrageously out of character for Legion to kill Shepard, and nothing in the scene indicates it would have.
The point is moot anyway, because Legion was not and never was a being of pure logic.

So your open to saying that Shepard in the ending is out of character, but not your mechanical waifu legion?

And Shepard is Legion's obsession, like a crazy fan. Remember the armour he's wearing? Ain't no way, he's going to kill Shepard.

You still aren't getting my point.

It's bad-writing.

Trust me. It's a cliche of the antagonist waiting to long to waste the protragonist.

[The Angry One]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Legion's personality must have emerged from an emotionless part of a hive mind. What I meant by 'driven by pure old logic' is that the Catalyst sees a solution that involves killing billions of lives as no different from 1+1=2. Just like Legion, and perhaps EDI, his personality emerged and I think that he was taken aback by his emotional outburst.

"Does this unit have a soul?" is not logical. The Geth are not emotionless.
Donning Shepard's N7 armour is not a logical act. Donating to the victims of the heretic attack on Eden Prime is not logical.

What the Catalyst showed was it's barely concealed contempt for Shepard that all Reapers have.

That arguement relies on a bunch of assumptions, the biggest being that the writers just didn't put as much obsessive thought into it as you are.

So let's disregard everything and just make assumptions based on nothing. Is that what you're saying? 

[Nragedreaper]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

That bothers me. What kind of story is it where the hero is wrong on this kind of level?
Was Luke wrong? Was Frodo wrong? You just don't do that, not in this way, not in this kind of series.

Then Bioware is breaking totally new ground!  Which is awesome in my opinion and of course that is going to upset people, I think it's great when people take risks with their storytelling, it doesn't always pay off, but it's still better than just rehashing the same stories over and over(although that can be pretty good too) 

To me, that is an amazing story, to think for most of a series that you are the good guy, only to find out at the end that you were actually wrong, I don't think this is quite Mass Effect, but IMO that is a worthwhile story.

There is this movie called momento, you may want to check it out. 

[AlduinTheWorldNommer]

The Angry One wrote...

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Legion's personality must have emerged from an emotionless part of a hive mind. What I meant by 'driven by pure old logic' is that the Catalyst sees a solution that involves killing billions of lives as no different from 1+1=2. Just like Legion, and perhaps EDI, his personality emerged and I think that he was taken aback by his emotional outburst.

"Does this unit have a soul?" is not logical. The Geth are not emotionless.
Donning Shepard's N7 armour is not a logical act. Donating to the victims of the heretic attack on Eden Prime is not logical.

What the Catalyst showed was it's barely concealed contempt for Shepard that all Reapers have.

That arguement relies on a bunch of assumptions, the biggest being that the writers just didn't put as much obsessive thought into it as you are.

So let's disregard everything and just make assumptions based on nothing. Is that what you're saying? 

Not what I'm saying. What you're doing.

[Skyhawk02]

[quote]Galiredon wrote...

Then Bioware is breaking totally new ground!  Which is awesome in my opinion and of course that is going to upset people, I think it's great when people take risks with their storytelling, it doesn't always pay off, but it's still better than just rehashing the same stories over and over(although that can be pretty good too) 

To me, that is an amazing story, to think for most of a series that you are the good guy, only to find out at the end that you were actually wrong, I don't think this is quite Mass Effect, but IMO that is a worthwhile story.

[/quote]

Listen to yourself! You're...indoctrinated!

[/quote]

You're right!  Bioware tricked into liking their game!  Haha, good post, it made me laugh.

[MOIST N FLUFFY]

nicocap24 wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

MOIST N FLUFFY wrote...

It doesn't bother me from a writing stand point, but as a participant in the ME universe I am concerned about the god-child's true nature. He/she/it clearly has an idea for how things should work and doesn't want that to be messed with. When he/she/it speaks about the creators he/she/it mentions their reluctance to become synthetic and it only leaves me to wonder if the reapers are slaves to an artificial malevolent intelligence (god child). That they were reluctant could be a serious understatement of what really happened and how these creators really felt.

Then choosing Control may be the best ending of all, finally freeing them from the Catalyst.

I liked Control, but it creeps me out a bit. That new entity or whatever is not exactly Shepard. I don't trust it completely. If the Catalyst was corrupted the Catashep might be corrupted too.

Yeah the fleshed out version of the control ending that has been introduced with the EC clearly alludes to an "enlightened" Shepard. He seems domicile enough considering the controlled reapers are helping organics, but when you start saying things like "I am immortal blah blah blah" you start sounding like Sovereign or Harbinger, who were originally organics. Perhaps the synthetic life leads one to a detached existence where mortality's value is lost.

[nicocap24]

Nragedreaper wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

That bothers me. What kind of story is it where the hero is wrong on this kind of level?
Was Luke wrong? Was Frodo wrong? You just don't do that, not in this way, not in this kind of series.

Then Bioware is breaking totally new ground!  Which is awesome in my opinion and of course that is going to upset people, I think it's great when people take risks with their storytelling, it doesn't always pay off, but it's still better than just rehashing the same stories over and over(although that can be pretty good too) 

To me, that is an amazing story, to think for most of a series that you are the good guy, only to find out at the end that you were actually wrong, I don't think this is quite Mass Effect, but IMO that is a worthwhile story.

There is this movie called momento, you may want to check it out. 

You mean Memento? That movie's freaking awesome.

[The Angry One]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Um. It's not new ground. It's Deus Ex.
That's my point. It doesn't fit on this level in this kind of story.

I haven't played Deus Ex yet so don't spoil it for me!  If during the whole Mass Effect series you were thinking, "Hey, I bet controlling the reapers could work!"  Or, "Maybe Saren's onto something with this synthesis stuff!"  Then it wouldn't be such a shock to find out at the end that those things could actually work.  The fact that it doesn't fit in the story, is why it works for the story.

 I know that sounds stupid, and feel free to disagree, but I will still keep arguing because I love debate and discussion.

Again I never said that the existing endings aren't valid (aside from synthesis ).
But they do lack proper foreshadowing within the game.

My only issue is that my option is absent, which makes this forced cooperation with the villain feel uncomfortable to me.

[Ridwan]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

M25105 wrote...

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...


Do I honestly need to prove to you that this was cheap-ploy for emotion?

This happens all the time in movies, right next to the villan explaining his motives before the potragonist.

You honestly don't see that?

You honestly don't.

It would be outrageously out of character for Legion to kill Shepard, and nothing in the scene indicates it would have.
The point is moot anyway, because Legion was not and never was a being of pure logic.

So your open to saying that Shepard in the ending is out of character, but not your mechanical waifu legion?

And Shepard is Legion's obsession, like a crazy fan. Remember the armour he's wearing? Ain't no way, he's going to kill Shepard.

You still aren't getting my point.

It's bad-writing.

Trust me. It's a cliche of the antagonist waiting to long to waste the protragonist.

Dude, how many times didn't Legion tell Shepard he was awesome? You can stop someone from getting in your way, by just knocking them out or wounding them. No need to kill him.

[Skyhawk02]

Nragedreaper wrote...

There is this movie called momento, you may want to check it out. 

Alright, sounds cool if it's like what I am describing, don't spoil it, I will check it out.  BTW I didn't mean that bioware was literally breaking new ground, I just said that in response to The Angry One's incredulity that such a story could be told.

[Galiredon]

AlduinTheWorldNommer wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Legion's personality must have emerged from an emotionless part of a hive mind. What I meant by 'driven by pure old logic' is that the Catalyst sees a solution that involves killing billions of lives as no different from 1+1=2. Just like Legion, and perhaps EDI, his personality emerged and I think that he was taken aback by his emotional outburst.

"Does this unit have a soul?" is not logical. The Geth are not emotionless.
Donning Shepard's N7 armour is not a logical act. Donating to the victims of the heretic attack on Eden Prime is not logical.

What the Catalyst showed was it's barely concealed contempt for Shepard that all Reapers have.

That arguement relies on a bunch of assumptions, the biggest being that the writers just didn't put as much obsessive thought into it as you are.

Isn't that what good writers do? Obsessing on the story and working out every little kink is what makes it good. Did Mozart or DaVinci bust out their masterpieces in a few days or did they put even more obsessive thought into it?

[nicocap24]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Nragedreaper wrote...

There is this movie called momento, you may want to check it out. 

Alright, sounds cool if it's like what I am describing, don't spoil it, I will check it out.  BTW I didn't mean that bioware was literally breaking new ground, I just said that in response to The Angry One's incredulity that such a story could be told.

Memento is great. But be warned, it's also quite weird.