The Angry One wrote...
My only issue is that my option is absent, which makes this forced cooperation with the villain feel uncomfortable to me.
Modifié par Luxure, 30 juin 2012 - 07:36 .
Skyhawk02 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
My only issue is that my option is absent, which makes this forced cooperation with the villain feel uncomfortable to me.
No, your option is not absent (although it was before EC), you want to not only pick your choices but also the consequences. So your consequence is absent, but not your option.
Skyhawk02 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
Um. It's not new ground. It's Deus Ex.
That's my point. It doesn't fit on this level in this kind of story.
I haven't played Deus Ex yet so don't spoil it for me! If during the whole Mass Effect series you were thinking, "Hey, I bet controlling the reapers could work!" Or, "Maybe Saren's onto something with this synthesis stuff!" Then it wouldn't be such a shock to find out at the end that those things could actually work. The fact that it doesn't fit in the story, is why it works for the story.
I know that sounds stupid, and feel free to disagree, but I will still keep arguing because I love debate and discussion.
The Angry One wrote...
Skyhawk02 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
My only issue is that my option is absent, which makes this forced cooperation with the villain feel uncomfortable to me.
No, your option is not absent (although it was before EC), you want to not only pick your choices but also the consequences. So your consequence is absent, but not your option.
I do not accept those consequences. Those consequences are artificial, as artificial as not allowing Shepard to dispute the Catalyst in the first place.
Luxure wrote...
I'm still trying to figure out how the heck the hologramed kid is exactly the one Shepard met on Earth. Well, more hologramish. But of course it bothers me, it even offers me the option to DESTROY the Reapers, but when I refuse all of his options he goes all scary Reaper voice. Why the heck didn't you jsut surrender already, or auto-destroy the hell out of yourself. Anyway, StarBrat still annoying. EC didn't do much. But at least there is still hope to reunite with LI and crew. Terrible thing is we'll just have to imagine that, because BioWare couldn't give us the choice to do so.
NowakPRO wrote...
I don't see how Reapers "win" if you pick up Synthesis ending. It's more like win to everyone - synthetics gets to know what it really means to be alive (something they always wanted), organics achieve perfection and immortality (reasons why they usually created synthetics in the first place) and Reapers get to be more or less "free" and share their culture and knowledge.
Only "bad side" might be that you don't get to have a revenge on reapers/catalyst for all they've done but since when a revenge is a good thing? (and don't mistake revenge for justice)
As for Catalyst, he's not manipulating anyone, sure he's using visage of a child but that's simply because of 2 reasons, first developers created unique child model so they wanted to use it as much as they could, second he wanted to look more trustworthy - if he would be a just a scary reaper like voice with no body than it might be hard to convince anyone that he's not planning on backstabbing you.
Also when asked he explained with as much detail he could what's going to happen if you pick each solution, where's manipulation in here?
nicocap24 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
Skyhawk02 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
My only issue is that my option is absent, which makes this forced cooperation with the villain feel uncomfortable to me.
No, your option is not absent (although it was before EC), you want to not only pick your choices but also the consequences. So your consequence is absent, but not your option.
I do not accept those consequences. Those consequences are artificial, as artificial as not allowing Shepard to dispute the Catalyst in the first place.
Why are they artificial?
The Angry One wrote...
I do not accept those consequences. Those consequences are artificial, as artificial as not allowing Shepard to dispute the Catalyst in the first place.
Modifié par Skyhawk02, 30 juin 2012 - 07:38 .
M25105 wrote...
NowakPRO wrote...
I don't see how Reapers "win" if you pick up Synthesis ending. It's more like win to everyone - synthetics gets to know what it really means to be alive (something they always wanted), organics achieve perfection and immortality (reasons why they usually created synthetics in the first place) and Reapers get to be more or less "free" and share their culture and knowledge.
Only "bad side" might be that you don't get to have a revenge on reapers/catalyst for all they've done but since when a revenge is a good thing? (and don't mistake revenge for justice)
As for Catalyst, he's not manipulating anyone, sure he's using visage of a child but that's simply because of 2 reasons, first developers created unique child model so they wanted to use it as much as they could, second he wanted to look more trustworthy - if he would be a just a scary reaper like voice with no body than it might be hard to convince anyone that he's not planning on backstabbing you.
Also when asked he explained with as much detail he could what's going to happen if you pick each solution, where's manipulation in here?
I wouldn't call lobotomising everyone victory.
Skyhawk02 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
I do not accept those consequences. Those consequences are artificial, as artificial as not allowing Shepard to dispute the Catalyst in the first place.
Well, you are about to learn a valuable life lesson right now then. Let me break it to you: You CAN'T choose the consequences your actions. You can't do it in a video game, and you can't do it in real life. If that is the lesson that Mass Effect is trying to teach us, then it should be praised for that, not condemned.
The Angry One wrote...
Torrible wrote...
Legion's personality must have emerged from an emotionless part of a hive mind. What I meant by 'driven by pure old logic' is that the Catalyst sees a solution that involves killing billions of lives as no different from 1+1=2. Just like Legion, and perhaps EDI, his personality emerged and I think that he was taken aback by his emotional outburst.
"Does this unit have a soul?" is not logical. The Geth are not emotionless.
Donning Shepard's N7 armour is not a logical act. Donating to the victims of the heretic attack on Eden Prime is not logical.
What the Catalyst showed was it's barely concealed contempt for Shepard that all Reapers have.
Modifié par Torrible, 30 juin 2012 - 07:40 .
The Angry One wrote...
Because, as I said. Shepard doesn't do anything. She could contact the fleet. Tell them what's going on. Destroy the Catalyst. At least *try*.
Shepard says she'll die knowing she did everything she could to stop this maniac and then... just stands there. That's artificial.
Also, it completely ignores your EMS. 1000 EMS? You lose! 7000 EMS? You lose! What's the point? (If you say synthesis I will not like you very much).
The Angry One wrote...
nicocap24 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
Skyhawk02 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
My only issue is that my option is absent, which makes this forced cooperation with the villain feel uncomfortable to me.
No, your option is not absent (although it was before EC), you want to not only pick your choices but also the consequences. So your consequence is absent, but not your option.
I do not accept those consequences. Those consequences are artificial, as artificial as not allowing Shepard to dispute the Catalyst in the first place.
Why are they artificial?
Because, as I said. Shepard doesn't do anything. She could contact the fleet. Tell them what's going on. Destroy the Catalyst. At least *try*.
Shepard says she'll die knowing she did everything she could to stop this maniac and then... just stands there. That's artificial.
Also, it completely ignores your EMS. 1000 EMS? You lose! 7000 EMS? You lose! What's the point? (If you say synthesis I will not like you very much).
nicocap24 wrote...
M25105 wrote...
NowakPRO wrote...
I don't see how Reapers "win" if you pick up Synthesis ending. It's more like win to everyone - synthetics gets to know what it really means to be alive (something they always wanted), organics achieve perfection and immortality (reasons why they usually created synthetics in the first place) and Reapers get to be more or less "free" and share their culture and knowledge.
Only "bad side" might be that you don't get to have a revenge on reapers/catalyst for all they've done but since when a revenge is a good thing? (and don't mistake revenge for justice)
As for Catalyst, he's not manipulating anyone, sure he's using visage of a child but that's simply because of 2 reasons, first developers created unique child model so they wanted to use it as much as they could, second he wanted to look more trustworthy - if he would be a just a scary reaper like voice with no body than it might be hard to convince anyone that he's not planning on backstabbing you.
Also when asked he explained with as much detail he could what's going to happen if you pick each solution, where's manipulation in here?
I wouldn't call lobotomising everyone victory.
It's not lobotomising. It's changing the very essence of what they are without their consent... yeah, that's still pretty messed up, but it's not lobotomising.
The Angry One wrote...
The theme of Mass Effect is you CAN defy the odds. You CAN fight for your own future.
You can go up to the maniac who thinks it controls your destiny and spit in it's face.
Aside from ME3 where you have to do as you're told. If I work for something, then I want to see that work reflected.
M25105 wrote...
nicocap24 wrote...
M25105 wrote...
NowakPRO wrote...
I don't see how Reapers "win" if you pick up Synthesis ending. It's more like win to everyone - synthetics gets to know what it really means to be alive (something they always wanted), organics achieve perfection and immortality (reasons why they usually created synthetics in the first place) and Reapers get to be more or less "free" and share their culture and knowledge.
Only "bad side" might be that you don't get to have a revenge on reapers/catalyst for all they've done but since when a revenge is a good thing? (and don't mistake revenge for justice)
As for Catalyst, he's not manipulating anyone, sure he's using visage of a child but that's simply because of 2 reasons, first developers created unique child model so they wanted to use it as much as they could, second he wanted to look more trustworthy - if he would be a just a scary reaper like voice with no body than it might be hard to convince anyone that he's not planning on backstabbing you.
Also when asked he explained with as much detail he could what's going to happen if you pick each solution, where's manipulation in here?
I wouldn't call lobotomising everyone victory.
It's not lobotomising. It's changing the very essence of what they are without their consent... yeah, that's still pretty messed up, but it's not lobotomising.
So we didn't forget that all the Reapers killed our family, but just go. "Hey look, we're all green and ****. Let's hang out"?
The Angry One wrote...
nicocap24 wrote...
What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?
"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."
nicocap24 wrote...
As for the refuse ending, I agree it could've been handled much better (maybe showing you the epic final battle and feeling like you died trying?) but I wouldn't call it artificial because you don't really see Shepard give up. It's just a couple of seconds of him moving his head and then it cuts to Liara's hologram. I'm sure everyone kept fighting. Heck, the war lasted the whole duration of ME3. I'm sure it went on for at least a couple of months.
The Angry One wrote...
.. the Catalyst being a deceptive manipulator?
Setting aside the exact nature of the functions of theWarCrime-O-MaticCrucible, let's look at the reject ending.
Specifically, "SO BE IT." Now, yes. We already know pretty much that it is a Reaper/Reaper intelligence/Harbinger/3rd Reaper from the right/whatever. However, it actually voicing itself that way provides a visceral insight into what it truly is.
The point is, why does it speak to you with the form and voice of a human child the rest of the time?
Sovereign and Harbinger were nothing if not frank in everything they said. This was in a way refreshing. They never pretended to be something they weren't (Collector General aside, it still used the same voice and manner of speech).
The Catalyst hides everything it is and everything it does behind a layer of deceit. It paints itself as something completely foreign to what it really is - an innocent child. This on top of it's sugar-coating of it's incredible crimes.
So I have to know, out of curiosity. Does this not bother you? Does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth knowing that when this being is challenged, it reverts to it's "true" voice? That it maintains a facade for as long as Shepard plays nice with it?
The Angry One wrote...
nicocap24 wrote...
What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?
"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."
Modifié par maxulic, 30 juin 2012 - 07:52 .
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