565 réponses à ce sujet

[Ridwan]

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

NowakPRO wrote...

I don't see how Reapers "win" if you pick up Synthesis ending. It's more like win to everyone - synthetics gets to know what it really means to be alive (something they always wanted), organics achieve perfection and immortality (reasons why they usually created synthetics in the first place) and Reapers get to be more or less "free" and share their culture and knowledge.
Only "bad side" might be that you don't get to have a revenge on reapers/catalyst for all they've done but since when a revenge is a good thing? (and don't mistake revenge for justice)

As for Catalyst, he's not manipulating anyone, sure he's using visage of a child but that's simply because of 2 reasons, first developers created unique child model so they wanted to use it as much as they could, second he wanted to look more trustworthy - if he would be a just a scary reaper like voice with no body than it might be hard to convince anyone that he's not planning on backstabbing you.
Also when asked he explained with as much detail he could what's going to happen if you pick each solution, where's manipulation in here?

I wouldn't call lobotomising everyone victory.

It's not lobotomising. It's changing the very essence of what they are without their consent... yeah, that's still pretty messed up, but it's not lobotomising.

So we didn't forget that all the Reapers killed our family, but just go. "Hey look, we're all green and ****. Let's hang out"?

It's probably more like "holy f**k what the hell just happened?!... we're green and sh*t, let's hang out". And, you know, a lot of people being traumatised for life. But still, not lobotomising.

It's still ****ed up, and I'll still go with lobotomising to be honest, cause I can't see how anyone could forget the horrible things the Reapers did. Even if you're green and all weird you would still be like "Dude, we're like... robots, but you know at the same time we're not robots. That's pretty ****ed up. Oh well" *picks up his gun* "That was for killing my dog, you Reaper piece of ****!"

[The Angry One]

Maggot4ever wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Wouldn't the Reapers then have free control and completely wipe everyone out and never leave back to dark space? Doesn't sound like a good idea.

Why would they? Harvesting is the Catalyst's agenda, not theirs. They likely have no say.
Perhaps without the Catalyst, the memories of the civilisations stored within would take over. The point is, Shepard would try.

[Ridwan]

maxulic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

[Maggot4ever]

The Angry One wrote...

Maggot4ever wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Wouldn't the Reapers then have free control and completely wipe everyone out and never leave back to dark space? Doesn't sound like a good idea.

Why would they? Harvesting is the Catalyst's agenda, not theirs. They likely have no say.
Perhaps without the Catalyst, the memories of the civilisations stored within would take over. The point is, Shepard would try.

Unfortunately there's speculation to be had on how the Reapers would act upon freedom...

[Skyhawk02]

Galiredon wrote...

So you're just arguing for the sake of arguing? I'm done talking to you now.

Okay, I was rather enjoying our conversation, but if you don't enjoy dialogue then I agree that you should stop, you don't have to do things that you find unpleasant.

[nicocap24]

M25105 wrote...

maxulic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

But then the Geth would die... what's the point of destroying the Citadel and not just shooting the tube?

[Ridwan]

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

maxulic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

But then the Geth would die... what's the point of destroying the Citadel and not just shooting the tube?

I think the only way to make any sense of that, would be to pull off the Crucible and then destroy the Citadel, after Shepard informed Hackett what was up.

[Ridwan]

By the way, I get now why people like the Angry One. She's one of the few who can make her case without resorting to writing endless pages long posts. Keeping your arguments, short and to the point for the win.

[nicocap24]

M25105 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

maxulic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

But then the Geth would die... what's the point of destroying the Citadel and not just shooting the tube?

I think the only way to make any sense of that, would be to pull off the Crucible and then destroy the Citadel, after Shepard informed Hackett what was up.

Then the tube doesn't even matter anymore, because the energy of the Crucible is not released and the reapers are not destroyed. So maxulic's point still stands.

[Ridwan]

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

maxulic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

But then the Geth would die... what's the point of destroying the Citadel and not just shooting the tube?

I think the only way to make any sense of that, would be to pull off the Crucible and then destroy the Citadel, after Shepard informed Hackett what was up.

Then the tube doesn't even matter anymore, because the energy of the Crucible is not released and the reapers are not destroyed. So maxulic's point still stands.

But wouldn't you destroy the stupid space kid, if you took out the Citadel?

[nicocap24]

M25105 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

maxulic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

But then the Geth would die... what's the point of destroying the Citadel and not just shooting the tube?

I think the only way to make any sense of that, would be to pull off the Crucible and then destroy the Citadel, after Shepard informed Hackett what was up.

Then the tube doesn't even matter anymore, because the energy of the Crucible is not released and the reapers are not destroyed. So maxulic's point still stands.

But wouldn't you destroy the stupid space kid, if you took out the Citadel?

Well that depends on whether maxulic is right or not about the Catalyst. If the Catalyst depends on the Citadel to exist, then yes, you would destroy him. But it would make sense if he was also uploaded in the reapers themselves. Maybe that's how he controls them after all.

[keeveek2]

What's wrong with him being manipulator?

[Skyhawk02]

M25105 wrote...

By the way, I get now why people like the Angry One. She's one of the few who can make her case without resorting to writing endless pages long posts. Keeping your arguments, short and to the point for the win.

I agree, it is no fun having a conversation when one person is posting a wall of text regularly, unfortunately, I may be guilty of this

[Uhh.. Jonah]

Hmm, never thought of it that way.

[Skyhawk02]

keeveek2 wrote...

What's wrong with him being manipulator?

That was my thinking, it only adds more depth to the story in my opinion.

[Torrible]

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

I completely understand where you're coming from, but I don't see it as being deceitful simply because it has no reason to be. It's not objective to either side. It's not rooting for the Reapers to win because to him it's not a war. It's a cycle it came up with to solve a problem. It doens't see killing trillions as a bad or evil thing to do, in his mind it's the only way to save them. That's also my reasoning for it not opening the Citadel in ME1; it doesn't need to take part in it because so far the cycle will inevitably happen and again, it's not wanting the Repaers to win, so why would it intervene in something that meant victory?

This. He sees sentient lives as nothing more than numbers to crunch. He's probably a flawed AI that lacks complete free will, cursed to forever pursue the end he was created for. 

[Ridwan]

keeveek2 wrote...

What's wrong with him being manipulator?

Nothing, it's wrong however to be manipulated. You're Shepard after all, the baddest dude in the galaxy. Some stupid see through little obnoxious genocidal space kid ain't gonna tell you what to do. But apperently he can. That's one of the things that bugs many players.

[nicocap24]

I like this thread, there's a lot of discussion but a minimum amount of insults. How nice.

[Skyhawk02]

M25105 wrote...

keeveek2 wrote...

What's wrong with him being manipulator?

Nothing, it's wrong however to be manipulated. You're Shepard after all, the baddest dude in the galaxy. Some stupid see through little obnoxious genocidal space kid ain't gonna tell you what to do. But apperently he can. That's one of the things that bugs many players.

But they fixed this in Extended Cut, you forgot to mention that.

[Ridwan]

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

maxulic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

But then the Geth would die... what's the point of destroying the Citadel and not just shooting the tube?

I think the only way to make any sense of that, would be to pull off the Crucible and then destroy the Citadel, after Shepard informed Hackett what was up.

Then the tube doesn't even matter anymore, because the energy of the Crucible is not released and the reapers are not destroyed. So maxulic's point still stands.

But wouldn't you destroy the stupid space kid, if you took out the Citadel?

Well that depends on whether maxulic is right or not about the Catalyst. If the Catalyst depends on the Citadel to exist, then yes, you would destroy him. But it would make sense if he was also uploaded in the reapers themselves. Maybe that's how he controls them after all.

Let's say the dumb kid gets wasted along with the Citadel, Crucible docked off so no red energy beam (lol). What would happen to the Reapers then? They keep going with reaping everyone? They get switched off? They fly away and never bother anyone?

[Ridwan]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

keeveek2 wrote...

What's wrong with him being manipulator?

Nothing, it's wrong however to be manipulated. You're Shepard after all, the baddest dude in the galaxy. Some stupid see through little obnoxious genocidal space kid ain't gonna tell you what to do. But apperently he can. That's one of the things that bugs many players.

But they fixed this in Extended Cut, you forgot to mention that.

Yeah, but the price of taking a stand and telling that stupid kid, that we make our own fate = failure. We all die.

[nicocap24]

M25105 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

maxulic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

But then the Geth would die... what's the point of destroying the Citadel and not just shooting the tube?

I think the only way to make any sense of that, would be to pull off the Crucible and then destroy the Citadel, after Shepard informed Hackett what was up.

Then the tube doesn't even matter anymore, because the energy of the Crucible is not released and the reapers are not destroyed. So maxulic's point still stands.

But wouldn't you destroy the stupid space kid, if you took out the Citadel?

Well that depends on whether maxulic is right or not about the Catalyst. If the Catalyst depends on the Citadel to exist, then yes, you would destroy him. But it would make sense if he was also uploaded in the reapers themselves. Maybe that's how he controls them after all.

Let's say the dumb kid gets wasted along with the Citadel, Crucible docked off so no red energy beam (lol). What would happen to the Reapers then? They keep going with reaping everyone? They get switched off? They fly away and never bother anyone?

I think they would develop objectives of their own. Apparently in the Leviathan DLC there's gonna be a rogue reaper. I think that reaper was dormant and was reactivated, and then went wrong. Maybe when it was deactivated in the first place it lost the influence of the Catalyst (look at how much speculation!) and that's why it went rogue when it woke up. The same could happen with the rest of the reapers if the catalyst is destroyed.

[Skyhawk02]

Torrible wrote...

This. He sees sentient lives as nothing more than numbers to crunch. He's probably a flawed AI that lacks complete free will, cursed to forever pursue the end he was created for. 

That's really interesting to think about, clearly his creators were not anticipating him choosing the method he did to save them, and he must have contained a flaw as you said, causeing him to not even realize how flawed his solution was.  I am really impressed by the Extended Cut, because now you can choose destroy, control, synthesis without needing to accept the Catalysts reasoning.  It's clearly the opposite as his reasoning is that he should continue the cycle as illustrated in the refuse ending.

[Jadebaby]

The Angry One wrote...

But our only choices is, cooperate with the omnicidal monster - or die.
This is why it bothers me, because it appears to me that we're essentially being told we must do the bidding of the manipulative villain - or else.

And even if we do cooperate with him we still die. Barring that pathetic breath scene.

[Skyhawk02]

M25105 wrote...

Yeah, but the price of taking a stand and telling that stupid kid, that we make our own fate = failure. We all die.

That's what makes it a tough decision, if you got this far in Mass Effect you know it's partially about making tough decisions where there is no "Perfect" choice, you always have to make compromises.